GP1800?

[gmtech16450yz]

@gmtech16450yz
I am curious what are your mods to get just shy of 80mph on the stock impeller and s/c wheel?

Riva intake and through-hull exhaust, my tune, my milled ride plate, sealed and cleaned up pump and Riva top loader grate. Blowoff valve too but that doesn't do anything for speed. Pisser delete was probably good for another .25495 mph increase too. lol.

 

[Neutron]

Nice mods.
Pisser delete? For better cooler flow?
Did you do it for all 3 pissers

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Nice mods.
Pisser delete? For better cooler flow?
Did you do it for all 3 pissers

Oh sorry, I used the wrong term. I think the watercraft guys actually call what I deleted the "gay spray"? lol. What I meant was the rooster tail nozzle that sprays water up in the air behind the ski. It takes water off the pump to spray some up in the air. Kinda weird and dumb if you ask me. So no, I didn't do anything with the actual engine coolant "pissers".

 

[Neutron]

I see. Yeah i did the same thing. With a inline shut off. Winter temp water is too cold to have it blow back at you. Lol

 

[Peelz]

I was surprised by the regular VX. I didnt find myself bored at all. My best friend had bought a 1800 supercharged. I told him i went and tried the vx to chck it out...you know, because capitalism.... he said its "too much, really" in a text message.

lol never thought id ever hear that from either of us.

and we're speed freaks. atvs, motorcycles. he had a banshee I had a raptor 700, both built... so when he says its too much, I tend to believe him. I do so badly want to find out though.

 

[swatski]

What I've "claimed", "assumed", "expected" and "stated" about tuning, the available tuning hardware and what is available as far as "canned" tunes turned out to be 100% dead on.

You mean... that those are PERFECTLY SAFE? lolol

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[swatski]

my tune

So - did you go "full Motec" or did you buy Riva loging software and the Maptuner X?

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[swatski]

FYI, I now have some personal experience with tuning these Yamaha's, using the hardware, and what the aftermarket tunes/tuners look like.

What I've "claimed", "assumed", "expected" and "stated" about tuning, the available tuning hardware and what is available as far as "canned" tunes turned out to be 100% dead on.

Guys, this ain't my first rodeo. lol. There were absolutely no surprises in what I've found with tuning these Yamahas. VERY few actual editable tables, VERY primitive hardware and software, and the changes made by the "professional" tuners in the tunes you would buy is VERY basic. Exactly what I expected and tried to explain on here before. Somebody mentioned that these well known tuners know the difference between a racer and a recreational guy. Do you realize that the difference in their "race" tune and their "safe" tune is literally a couple minor changes in the values in a couple tables? And in a table that has a couple hundred cells from full engine vacuum to full boost, they're only changing the values in about 25% of the entire table. The rest is bone stock.

Again, this isn't anything surprising. 90% of "professional" tuners even in the automotive world have absolutely NO training or experience in actual engine management. So what those tuners do is WOT dyno tuning. And even that is usually only between 5000 and whatever their cutoff rpm is set to. All they can easily do without fully understanding basic things like stoichiometric fueling is to move mixture and ignition timing around until they see higher power readings on the dyno. The missing parts are huge. There's tons of "driveability", fuel mileage, engine response and ability to gain rpm's and basic engine efficiency that can be gained if you understand how it all works.

Understanding exhaust gas byproducts is another gigantic missing piece of the knowledge of most of the tuners out there. When you understand emissions, you can look at a fueling or ignition timing table and understand WHY they set it up the way they did. If you don't have that knowledge or experience, you have little to no clue what the factory was thinking when they built the table values. I'm not talking about wideband readings either, but even that's another point. The watercraft guys are using widebands that we (me, and two other guys who happen to test o2 sensors for the OEM's for a living) in the automotive tuning world realized were way too slow to accurately "auto tune" which is again what most tuners do because they don't know how to read and interpret logs down to the 100ms level. In simple terms, they use analog hardware to determine how to set up the fueling in their tunes. I've used digital hardware for half a decade exclusively for logging and tuning.

Wojtek, I know you're probably reading this and can't wait to copy and paste it in an email to your buddy Jesus. Please don't bother. I don't wish to turn this into a battle or compromise the business of any of these watercraft aftermarket accessory companies. I'm only posting this because a few of you guys wondered about tuning on the boats or watercraft. I made comments and claims on the subject on here occasionally. I still stand behind what I've said, I don't believe anything I've stated is inaccurate. Honestly, the other reason I posted this is because there is almost NO information on boat or watercraft tuning. It's kind of funny but it's like a big secret, mostly because there's simply so few people out there doing it. Case in point, Swatski, do you know exactly what they changed in your tune? You wouldn't unless you paid for an edit license. I can tell you what was changed isn't much, in only a couple tables, and would take a couple minutes to "build". Building a tune in an automotive ECM is a matter of editing hundreds of tables and sometimes takes hours to build just a first version of. I know you're happy with how your boat runs though, and that's all that matters so don't worry about it and know it's most likely plenty "safe" because they don't change much.

Like I said, just a "BTW" or "FYI", nothing more. I'm really not trying to start anything, just thought some of you would like to know what I found. And as far as my GP1800 is concerned, THE THING IS A F*CKING BLAST!!! Just under 80mph on the stock impeller and stock blower wheel. We ran 35 gallons of fuel through it in one day! Spent all day jumping the boat wake and doing laps on a water ski slalom course.

Okay, I read this post twice, still not sure what you are really saying apart from that you can tune better than anyone else, which I don't have any reason to doubt!

Yamaha JB engines are quite simple, mine don't even have knock sensors!
Riva tunes/Maptuner X are super easy to use and safe and in addition to making the boat more peppy improve the throttle response curve (something you solved by redesigning and fabricating brand new APS modules - kudos!) - all for the price of admission of whatever they now charge for the Maptuner X and two licenses, plus obligatory switching to running on Premium (91+) gas.
https://jetboaters.net/threads/riva-maptuner-x-ecu-reflash-throttle-response-and-speed-control.15799/#post-271734

I love this system, super easy, I run RIVA tunes whenever I can get premium gas which is anytime I trailer. When at home, at my marina, I'm stuck with 87 gas. I take 4 min of my time to reflash both ECUs and run stock.

I have zero interest in tuning engines. Given my time schedule and compensation, with RIVA current pricing I would need to be able to master those skills and create a usable tune in under 3-4 hours for it to make any sense, lol.

I'm good with using those guys to provide excellent product and service they do!



EDIT: I highly recommend RIVA/Maptuner X for reflashing, and also clearing pesky check engine codes without the need to visit with a Yamaha dealer.

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[gmtech16450yz]

I'll get back to this thread later with more info, but I have to clear up a couple little things...

Swatski, I never said "I can tune better than anyone else". My whole point was trying to tell you guys that the idea you all had that tuning these marine engines was some super involved, highly technical procedure that takes hours and hours to master wasn't exactly correct. It's about as basic as it comes. The tuning software is primitive and extremely limited in it's abilities. And the changes these aftermarket tuners are making are very limited also. The whole reason I brought my experience into it is to compare automotive world "tuning" to what we're talking about here. What is available and being done in the marine engine tuning world is where the automotive tuning world was at about 20 years ago. Seriously. And the reason "no automotive tuners will touch it"? There's almost no market and very limited opportunities for profit. Not because it's too difficult that's for sure.

The second part is the cost of this tuning hardware/software and tunes themselves. IF I wanted to log and tune 2 "vehicles", my twin engine Yamaha boat and my GP1800, it would cost me $4200 for the hardware and licenses. If those two vehicles were cars, it would cost me $500 and I'd have about 50 times the amount of tables to edit and logging abilities. So when clearing codes was mentioned, it "should" cost about $50 for an owner to have the ability to clear codes on his own boat. Instead it costs about $1000. Really? $1000 to only be able to load a tune blindly, not log or monitor and have no way of knowing what has been modified in your calibration isn't exactly what I'd call a deal. Oh but you'd be able to clear codes. lol.

 

[swatski]

I'll get back to this thread later with more info, but I have to clear up a couple little things...

Swatski, I never said "I can tune better than anyone else". My whole point was trying to tell you guys that the idea you all had that tuning these marine engines was some super involved, highly technical procedure that takes hours and hours to master wasn't exactly correct. It's about as basic as it comes. The tuning software is primitive and extremely limited in it's abilities. And the changes these aftermarket tuners are making are very limited also. The whole reason I brought my experience into it is to compare automotive world "tuning" to what we're talking about here. What is available and being done in the marine engine tuning world is where the automotive tuning world was at about 20 years ago. Seriously. And the reason "no automotive tuners will touch it"? There's almost no market and very limited opportunities for profit. Not because it's too difficult that's for sure.

The second part is the cost of this tuning hardware/software and tunes themselves. IF I wanted to log and tune 2 "vehicles", my twin engine Yamaha boat and my GP1800, it would cost me $4200 for the hardware and licenses. If those two vehicles were cars, it would cost me $500 and I'd have about 50 times the amount of tables to edit and logging abilities. So when clearing codes was mentioned, it "should" cost about $50 for an owner to have the ability to clear codes on his own boat. Instead it costs about $1000. Really? $1000 to only be able to load a tune blindly, not log or monitor and have no way of knowing what has been modified in your calibration isn't exactly what I'd call a deal. Oh but you'd be able to clear codes. lol.

"The tuning software is primitive and extremely limited in it's abilities."
I'm sure your are right! Yamaha 1.8 engines seem very simple (especially the N/As!), I don't see it as a negative. Most of my wake boating friends run with (ancient) big block V8s. Who cares?

But, the throttle response in my boat, stock, is kind of awful as you know and can be improved/fixed with:
1. a tune (relatively cheap and easy) or 2. a redesigned/fabricated binnacles and APS module/unit... (very difficult/very expensive). I can only wish I had your skills to do the latter!

I think you got taken on the prices though, lol. I have a Maptuner X w/unlimited reflashes for my twins for ~$1,200...

BTW - Clearing the codes is an added bonus, not a feature I paid for. Getting more torque mid-range is very nice! The price of premium vs regular gas is an additional cost. That may or may not be offset by improved fuel economy, just depends on how the boat is used.

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[robert843]

"
VERY few actual editable tables, VERY primitive hardware and software, and the changes made by the "professional" tuners in the tunes you would buy is VERY basic.

no automotive tuners will touch it"? There's almost no market and very limited opportunities for profit. Not because it's too difficult that's for sure.

Hmm I confused by this. Your basically saying you got the perfect tune in no time and that you could sell it for hundreds of dollars. So even if 10 people bought it and you made $5k for your 15 minutes of time which breaks down to $20,000 an hour but there is no profit? I'm lost on that one yes you would not sell 1000's of tunes a year like a car as there is a significantly higher amount of cars on the road then boats looking for tunes but if it only takes 15 minutes for descent tuner to set the tables perfectly why wouldn't they do it and sell the tune? I can't imagine they are sitting around saying I can't spend 15 minutes of my time to write a tune and save it to sell it to make even just a couple grand as I just don't have the time. I'm the first to admit tuning is not my world and above my pay grade but profit I do understand and I don't see this one. You show me a way to spend 15 minutes of my time one time and make a residual return of $5k with no effort I'm in.

 

[swatski]

Hmm I confused by this. Your basically saying you got the perfect tune in no time and that you could sell it for hundreds of dollars. So even if 10 people bought it and you made $5k for your 15 minutes of time which breaks down to $20,000 an hour but there is no profit? I'm lost on that one yes you would not sell 1000's of tunes a year like a car as there is a significantly higher amount of cars on the road then boats looking for tunes but if it only takes 15 minutes for descent tuner to set the tables perfectly why wouldn't they do it and sell the tune? I can't imagine they are sitting around saying I can't spend 15 minutes of my time to write a tune and save it to sell it to make even just a couple grand as I just don't have the time. I'm the first to admit tuning is not my world and above my pay grade but profit I do understand and I don't see this one. You show me a way to spend 15 minutes of my time one time and make a residual return of $5k with no effort I'm in.

I think he is just saying tuning these machines is:
1. simple; which it could be... once you have them Maptune unlocked!
2. the market is too small to bother; however most users wouldn't bother regardless as it is simply not what an average user would want to do; in this regard, buying a tuning setup/licenses is the way to go;

And lets keep in mind - every aspect of service related to recreational boating will always be more expensive than anything in automotive. This should not come as a surprise to anyone here.

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[gmtech16450yz]

I think you got taken on the prices though, lol. I have a Maptuner X w/unlimited reflashes for my twins for ~$1,200...

Did you miss where I said IF I wanted to log and tune 2 "vehicles", ? I'll spend money on toys, but I'm not into just throwing piles of cash at a "problem". Your ~$1200 doesn't let you edit or even log either of your engines. And if you only paid $1200, they must have given you a discount to advertise for them on this forum. lol.

4-tec's discounted prices...

Maptuner X hardware with ONE tune license- $940.
One additional license for the other engine- $550.

That's $1490. No logging, no editing, no idea what changes are made.

Now add in the ability to actually SEE the changes that were made to your stock file...

Edit licenses for 2 engines- $540.

And the ability to log the data...

Data logging application- $250.

And a wideband since it's pointless editing and logging without one...

PLX wideband and cable to make it work with Maptuner X- $400. (for both engines)

And since you'll need a place to mount that wideband, there goes another $440 for a couple of mounts.

So just to log, edit and tune both engines in a Yamaha boat, the grand total would be $3120! Yikes. I understand boat tax, but that's a little ridiculous.

Oh and my $4200 estimated total if I wanted to do the boat and the GP1800 was a tad low. With the greanhulk 10% discount off Riva pricing, the total to "tune" the GP and the boat would be...

...

...

$4360!

Robert, I think your numbers are just a "tad" optimistic. haha. Did you buy a tune for your boat? Do you know anyone else that has? How many people on this entire forum have paid for an aftermarket tune for their boat? I'd be surprised if there's the 10 you thought would be an easy sale. There's very little market here. And your hourly is missing just a tiny bit of the picture also, and that's support. Sure, that tune might only take you 15 minutes to build, but then you spend countless hours answering the customer's emails, texts and phone calls. Not to mention the time that would have to be spent on the internet forums simply supporting those customers that seemed so easy for you to get.

Again, this ain't my first rodeo. I've been in the tuning world for a few minutes. lol. It's not an easy way to make big bucks, believe me.

 

[robert843]

Robert, I think your numbers are just a "tad" optimistic. haha. Did you buy a tune for your boat? Do you know anyone else that has? How many people on this entire forum have paid for an aftermarket tune for their boat? I'd be surprised if there's the 10 you thought would be an easy sale.

Ok the answer is not exact here but thats because you are being too narrow with the question. Have I tuned my boat no. Do I know 10 people who have tuned their jet boat no (I think I have talked to 4). Do I know 10 people who have used the the same tunes that are used on our boats yes I know a significant amount more then that and this includes my plans to buy one in the next couple months as well. There are many people who tune skis which is what I will be buying one for as well. All the tunes I have seen done on our boats have been done using the ski tunes. So to answer your question yes if you come up with a perfect tune for a 1.8l yamaha marine engine I could easily sell 10. Do I think you could get rich off this nope, can you quit your day job nope but could you make $5k with minimal effort yes over time? Yes if your tune is so much better then these amateurs out here doing it I think you easily could with minimal effort.

 

[swatski]

Your ~$1200 doesn't let you edit or even log either of your engines.

Why on earth would I want to log, edit, or "see the changes"??? I buy the tunes ready to go precisely because I do not have any interest in messing with it. I happen to like what it does to my boat's drive-ability.

if you only paid $1200, they must have given you a discount to advertise for them on this forum.

I find this particular comment of yours to be rather ignorant!
You are implying that I received a discount in exchange for advertising for a seller - in this forum.


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[gmtech16450yz]

Robert... I quit my day job 2 years ago. And in the last 3 years I've bought a new car, new motorhome, new 212 Limited S, new GP1800, new YZ450 and a ton of other little toys, all with cash. The shack my wife and I live in would only sell for $3M today, so sad. I'm not sure I need your advice on how to make money. lol.

Swatski, you claim you paid less than the going rate for your tune from Riva. And you gush about how amazing it, and Riva is every chance you get on here. I don't think the assumption was ignorant.

 

[robert843]

Robert... I quit my day job 2 years ago. And in the last 3 years I've bought a new car, new motorhome, new 212 Limited S, new GP1800, new YZ450 and a ton of other little toys, all with cash. The shack my wife and I live in would only sell for $3M today, so sad. I'm not sure I need your advice on how to make money. lol.

Never stated you did need my advice on making money all I said was it could be done and used my info to back that up. Congrats on the retirement and the toys not sure why that was vital info to the conversation but I will leave this thread at that as so far nothing said in the second half of this thread has added in content of value to the forum. My comments included so that is not a bash at anyone.

 

[swatski]

I don't think the assumption was ignorant.

Probably not (ignorant)...
More like an asshat comment.

We are done, Johnny!

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[gmtech16450yz]

Never stated you did need my advice on making money all I said was it could be done and used my info to back that up. Congrats on the retirement and the toys not sure why that was vital info to the conversation but I will leave this thread at that as so far nothing said in the second half of this thread has added in content of value to the forum. My comments included so that is not a bash at anyone.

I totally agree. The sad part is that I just went back and re-read this thread to see what happened. Swatski started it downhill when he felt he had to defend his Riva pals. Then your post #36 just crashed it into the rocks and burst it into flames.

Basically you and Swatski insisted on saying I was basically wrong or ignorant on my not wanting to use a "canned" tune and not wanting a paddle wheel speedometer and I stupidly took the bait. I guess that's how people get thousands and thousands of posts on a forum. You gotta admit both you guys literally came at me calling me ignorant and stupid for wasting my money and I tried to defend.

I shouldn't have replied to the trolling. Sorry.

 

[Betik]

This has pretty much turned to science fiction for me, but the part which I could follow maybe I could add my $0.02.

@gmtech16450yz if you get a chance to meet @swatski in person you will instantly know that he is not a troll kind of guy.

Taking advertisements money from Riva; that is just comical. His family is not exactly in need of income from Riva, or cobra or the $400 jack lift he was forced to buy as a safety feature for his trailer. Hope you got a ch ace to meet the guy one day.

Btw for what is worth those machines are faster than my sphincter can handle.
Enjoye your new ski and good luck with keeping your spine and knees healthy with those jumps..... thought truth to be told you seems ready for Bimini crossing