Have you had a 1.8 timing chain failure, was it in warranty and how has Yamaha handled it?

[swatski]

@haknslash, it would be interesting to see what Honda would do with this type of failure rate. Unfortunately, I can only assume that the auto industry is regulated with respect to situations like this, while the boating industry may not be.
The big thing that folks need to consider, especially Yamaha, is that the safety impact of the failure needs to be considered along with the rate of failure. If your Civic engine quits, you likely just use your cell phone and call for help (tow truck, AAA, cab, friend...). If your Yamaha engine quits, it will likely put you at greater personal risk. If you boat on a small lake with cell phone/vhf coverage, no biggy, but if you get hung up in big water, say while crossing the Gulf Stream on your way to Bimini, it could be catastrophic.

Good point @MrMoose. I think it would be very interesting to see WWYD (what would yamaha do) if something of that kind started happening to their outboards. Oh, boy...

With the inboards, as in our jet boats, few people are crazy enough to take them off shore.
Another factor is -- if one takes a look at the competition (rotax) -- they are working hard to make Yamaha reliability shine, TC issues notwithstanding.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

I disagree with the Hand full of chains failing statement and here is why, when I took my ski to the local shop they said there were 2 others that just came in ahead of me with the same thing wrong, they thought it was serious enough that it should be a recall is what they told me.
So how many service repair shops are there in the U S A and Canada and multiply that by 3 a week = There is no way for us to know what percentage it really is.
We certainly do not have a real number but I wonder just how many people have had to deal with this problem out of their own pocket?
I bet if we contact S B T and other engine rebuilders it will be more than a hand full.
I look at this from my perspective, I hit the water 3 times a week or more weather permitting, It's Florida so the permitting part is pretty well a given, most of the time.
That should be obvious by the hours I put on my machines. So in my situation I have one ski in the shop I just ride the other one I still get my time in on the water.
But I am looking at it from a twin engine jet boat owner's perspective that if one engine hatches a chain and you have the boat in the shop for a month or so and you get your boating season cut short I would expect the other engine to be upgraded at the same time to return my faith in the manufacturer.
On the other side of the fence, doing a upgrade on one that did not hatch and ruin the head would be less expensive for Yamaha in the long run or so it would appear.
It would make the customer feel appreciated more and that equates to a positive coming from a negative therefore diminishing the negative effect of the situation.
Now to take it one step further, consider that you are the boat owner who had his season cut short , you get back on the water and bang there goes the second timing chain because it was not replaced and the entire season is down the drain, if you are not a diehard boater you just find something else to do and forget boating, or if you are a diehard boater you find another manufacturer like I did when I had a Kawasaki ultra and totally hated it and the warranty service provided, NEVER would I own another . I avoid the sea doo skies also based on past BAD reliability experiences.
I need something I can trust and I thought I found it, even the nano hull crap I deal with was worth fixing myself to avoid having the dealer tie up the machine. So I empathize with the boat owners who paid their money to enjoy boating and have to deal with this while they keep making the boat payments .
I am sure that there are a lot of things that enter into this from Yamaha's side but it still is a bitter pill to swallow. I sure hope it gets handled for the benefit of the customers who are having their boating season interrupted by this defect. I'm just calling it like I see it.

 

[Ancient canoe]

Yamaha factors in the impact of failure in their decision (they better), but I disagree with the notion that engine catastrophe on the water puts in in greater personal risk than on the road. I would agree that catastrophe off shore puts you in greater personal risk, but to swatski's point how many Yamaha boats are used off shore? On a typical lake the variables needed to cause personal injury is less likely than the variables needed on the road, imo. No one is making a worry free jetboat or ski right now so that kind of sucks.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

I was out in the middle of nowhere with the wind blowing in the right direction and paddling since I have enough experience in 50 years of boating to carry a paddle in a ski and I was in the nice Florida sun in the 90's in 86 degree water with no shade but I have enough experience to carry a cooler with 3 bottles of water in the ski for emergencies , And I carry a cell phone but since I was in the flats I figured I would need to get to someplace where a boat could tow me in that someplace was 1 mile away, no big deal I made it to the channel eventually and someone towed me back the rest of the way. So I loaded up the broken ski and took the other one out, funny thing though my confidence was pretty well deflated at this point so I stayed close since both skies are the same make model and year with similar hours. If this was truly a hand full of incidents then I would not be concerned but it is a well known issue although as I said I always heard it was just the supercharged skies and not the regular 1800 engines. So I guess we will see what happens, I sure hope mine gets fixed and if the other one hatches I hope it is not in the middle of a thunder storm or out in the gulf of Mexico. I guess I will be back to doing all the adrenaline pumping stunts I usually do soon enough, because I can't help myself but if they find me 100 feet in the mangroves dead , have them check my timing chain in the ski.

 

[MrMoose]

So why don't we casually ask our dealer if they have replaced/fixed any timing chains? Then report your findings back to this forum.

 

[swatski]

@Cobra Jet Steering LLC Jeff, your skepticism gives me pause, that's for sure. No one knows this field better that you do!

It is impossible for anyone but yamaha to know the hard numbers. But, assuming we have a 5-10% share (or so) of all 1.8l owners represented here in the forum, and assuming 90% of our forum members with the problem would report it, the ball park number/frequency of TC failure in 1.8l hovers in the 1/500 - 1/10,000 range (per engine if you will). That is a big range, but still.

I am by no means advocating "the Yamaha way" of dealing with this problem. Should it be a recall? Absolutely! But we live in a strange world.

Going back to 2010 240 broken bolt/oil cooler problem is a teachable moment. Yamaha really screwed those customers who ended up being affected by not issuing a recall or at the very least extending the warranties on the coolers.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

I am just feeling this issue and sympathetic to the end user but here is something that can possibly help us who fear that out chains are failing and perhaps something that Yamaha could do cost effectively to give the customer a bit of confidence that the other engine is not going to hatch or perhaps it is and they can act on it knowing that it is ready to fail.

 

[swatski]

So why don't we casually ask our dealer if they have replaced/fixed any timing chains? Then report your findings back to this forum.

I did. Zero for n/a engines.
Now, granted that place is not an exclusive Yamaha dealer, or a very large dealer for that matter.

 

[swatski]

I am just feeling this issue and sympathetic to the end user but here is something that can possibly help us who fear that out chains are failing and perhaps something that Yamaha could do cost effectively to give the customer a bit of confidence that the other engine is not going to hatch or perhaps it is and they can act on it knowing that it is ready to fail.

That is a winner! @Cobra Jet Steering LLC.
Is there a gasket on the valve cover? Does it need to be replaced?

EDIT: @haknslash posted that, too, earlier in the thread. I knew I had seen it.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Sorry I missed it, but it's a long thread and I will be tearing into my other engine as soon as it stops raining in a few days. There is a ton of stuff on the internet about the handful of chains that have failed, I make funny, haaa.

 

[JEvanoff]

I am just feeling this issue and sympathetic to the end user but here is something that can possibly help us who fear that out chains are failing and perhaps something that Yamaha could do cost effectively to give the customer a bit of confidence that the other engine is not going to hatch or perhaps it is and they can act on it knowing that it is ready to fail.

I did get the dealer to look at my other engine timing chain while he was fixing the one that broke. However, he did state several times that when these go, there is no warning, no wear issue, broken links, etc. they just break.

 

[haknslash]

How would the dealer know if they just break

That is a winner! @Cobra Jet Steering LLC.
Is there a gasket on the valve cover? Does it need to be replaced?

EDIT: @haknslash posted that, too, earlier in the thread. I knew I had seen it.

There is a head gasket. Looks rubber so likely reusable I would imagine if you're careful taking it off. http://www.yamahapart.com/oemparts/a/yam/5547797b87a8660fa85af54f/cylinder-1

The same gasket (p/n 6BH-11193-00-00) is used in every 1.8 L engine, both N/A and SC http://www.yamahapart.com/oemparts/p/yamaha/6bh-11193-00-00/-gasket-head-cover-1

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Just an update on the timing chain caper. I just had a phone call advising me that Yamaha is out of a part needed to finish my warranty repair on the broken timing chain and there is no target date for this part to be available. I was advised that a gasket for the oil pan is on back order. So you may want to check on this if your engine is also in for a failed chain, It's been 3 weeks and a day since I dropped mine off at the dealer, so that wasn't terribly bad but the backorder gasket thing may start an entirely new ballgame.

 

[rkgdmd]

Yamaha factors in the impact of failure in their decision (they better), but I disagree with the notion that engine catastrophe on the water puts in in greater personal risk than on the road. I would agree that catastrophe off shore puts you in greater personal risk, but to swatski's point how many Yamaha boats are used off shore? On a typical lake the variables needed to cause personal injury is less likely than the variables needed on the road, imo. No one is making a worry free jetboat or ski right now so that kind of sucks.

How many boats used offshore? There seems to be lots of "Bimini 20xx" threads here. Even some Exuma threads. Check out YouTube if you need more evidence of how many jetboats make the crossing each year. And what qualifies as offshore? 3 miles? 5 miles? 15 miles? I don't know either. I'm regularly "offshore" 6 to 15 miles. Not sure why "inboard jets" should be considered any less reliable that an outboard. Seems to me, considering their inherent simplicity, they should be more reliable than another propulsion system. I don't think there's any doubt losing an engine in a boat is more dangerous than in a car....and you don't need to be in the ocean to get into trouble.

Just an update on the timing chain caper. I just had a phone call advising me that Yamaha is out of a part needed to finish my warranty repair on the broken timing chain and there is no target date for this part to be available. I was advised that a gasket for the oil pan is on back order. So you may want to check on this if your engine is also in for a failed chain, It's been 3 weeks and a day since I dropped mine off at the dealer, so that wasn't terribly bad but the backorder gasket thing may start an entirely new ballgame.

This is my single biggest problem with Yamaha by far. Parts availability. Nothing is "in stock". When I spun a bearing on my 2013, it was months before they could source the parts. I'm having trouble with the radio on my 2015 now. Called the dealer to ask if there is anything I could try before bringing it in. After that he tells me "hope it's not the radio, parts aren't available" Could be weeks or more wait for parts. WTF? I absolutely love my boat. I'm not particularly happy with the reliability issues I've had personally, but they would never prompt me to sell my boat. All boats have some issues. Having to wait weeks or months for a part that would scuttle my boating season is another matter entirely. Lots of people know how to fix a Yamaha or Mercury outboard and standard marine electronics. Now go ask someone to fix your Connext. Good luck with that. Lol.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

I would think someone would be on top of these issues. I have always said the fish rots from the head down so when things stink it's obvious where to look.

 

[swatski]

How many boats used offshore? There seems to be lots of "Bimini 20xx" threads here. Even some Exuma threads. Check out YouTube if you need more evidence of how many jetboats make the crossing each year. And what qualifies as offshore? 3 miles? 5 miles? 15 miles? I don't know either. I'm regularly "offshore" 6 to 15 miles. Not sure why "inboard jets" should be considered any less reliable that an outboard. Seems to me, considering their inherent simplicity, they should be more reliable than another propulsion system. I don't think there's any doubt losing an engine in a boat is more dangerous than in a car....and you don't need to be in the ocean to get into trouble.

I agree, but the thing is, Yamaha doesn't give a $hit about jet boats and skis going off shore. A jet boat or a ski stuck on the fringes of Exhumas will not be a PR disaster, hardly. I think the perception of jet boats as lake toys is changing, slowly, maybe, but it is what it is for now.

There is NO COMPARISON in the quality of their outboards vs inboard jet engines. Which is not entirely surprising given an outboard Yamaha motor can cost as much as a Yamaha jet boat. And the outboard will be about 10 fold quieter delivering twice the power.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Well it's 4 weeks as of today that I dropped it off for it to be repaired, NOTHING YET!

 

[JEvanoff]

Well it's 4 weeks as of today that I dropped it off for it to be repaired, NOTHING YET!

That stinks, let's hope Yamaha is starting to see this is a real problem and they start to get an inventory on parts.

 

[gpp7824]

The timing chain part was replaced in all 1.8l engines, N/A and supercharged, produced after 07/15.
This from a very good source.

Are ALL 2016 boats equipped with the new timing chains?
I have a 2016 AR190 but the engine build date is 07/15 !?!?!

Are there any visible signs of the upgrade w/o physically seeing the chain?

 

[swatski]

Are ALL 2016 boats equipped with the new timing chains?
I have a 2016 AR190 but the engine build date is 07/15 !?!?!

Are there any visible signs of the upgrade w/o physically seeing the chain?

That is crazy... My understanding is that your dealer should be able to tell exactly what parts you have. But the short answers would be no and no, to the best of my knowledge.