Here come the hybrids

[TimW451]

Pretty interesting Timelapse of luxury car segment and Tesla market share gain.
Though personally I feel like Tesla it’s an electric Camry. The price is Luxury but quality is average.

That is a great video. I focused on Lincoln until Tesla appeared. What a wonderful burst from them in the 80s and 90s to approach Cadillac (although Caddy was on a decline). In regard to Tesla, I take exception to the inclusion of the Model 3 and Y as being part of the luxury segment. Just isn’t the case. That wouldn’t be too different from declaring all Hyundais as part of the segment just because of Genesis.

 

[BlkGS]

Pretty interesting Timelapse of luxury car segment and Tesla market share gain.
Though personally I feel like Tesla it’s an electric Camry. The price is Luxury but quality is average.

Tesla isn't a luxury car at all. It's the same.level as a Chevy or Ford to me, maybe even a little lower.

What really shows in that video me is the huge jump that the companies had when they introduced their SUVs and crossovers. RX300 launched Lexus way up in the ranks, X5 rocketed BMW sales up. Pretty funny.

 

[HangOutdoors]

So I was on a business trip to Atlanta this week, finally home.... Anyhow when we went out to lunch the guy who drove, had a 2018 Tesla Model S. I got to ride in the front. Was nice. We talked at length about his experience. He bought it used. Also showed me how the Nav plots your course to each charger and lets you know how much you will have left and what the anticipated charge when leaving is. He also indicated that all he had to do was to run 220 off his fuse panel to an outlet outside. He set his charge to do it at night when rates are the cheapest.

 

[Ohio]

Tesla isn't a luxury car at all. It's the same.level as a Chevy or Ford to me, maybe even a little lower.

What really shows in that video me is the huge jump that the companies had when they introduced their SUVs and crossovers. RX300 launched Lexus way up in the ranks, X5 rocketed BMW sales up. Pretty funny.

Someone in the comments refutes that claim by talking about the technology it has. What technology does a Tesla have that those other brands don't?

 

[zpaul]

Someone in the comments refutes that claim by talking about the technology it has. What technology does a Tesla have that those other brands don't?

Basic Autopilot, integration of supercharger network to route your car to your destination, battery management system, Tesla maps and directions, the interface is very intuitive. Phone key integration with all the stats on your Tesla including Sentry mode where you can watch any of the cameras on the car live. Just tons of good stuff that comes for free and other manufacturers nickel and dime. Buying Tesla is whole other experience, simple and no BS or upsell.
Tesla is also basically entertainment center on wheels, you can stream YouTube, Hulu, all kinds of music, play games. That is the user interface.
Batteries, motors - all these components are technically tested and improved for the past 12 years. No other manufacturers have same efficiency.
There was a very good review by Munro comparing Ford EV with Tesla and he was just amazed how many totally unnecessary parts Ford EV had for no reason. Tesla simplified the design. They do collect the data how components in their cars used and Elon cuts the ones where he sees no use and potential savings. Like they cut out lumbar support from passenger seat since 98% of cars where not using it.
Teslas may look the same since they are not changing their looks much, but they are constantly improving and evolving even during the same model year.
So all that is good, but quality of interior and exterior's not there even after 12 years. Eventually, Tesla becomes a rattle box on wheels and it is a quest to find where all these rattles are coming from. The "vegan" leather they use is also very questionable. Tesla mobile service is awesome but they don't like to hunt for squeaks and rattles.
I think Self driving is overpriced, useless and still needs a ton of work. Others believe that it is awesome and the future.

So there are a ton of stuff that others do not have vs Tesla, just depends what you want. I would love to drive Ioniq with Tesla tech but it doesn't exist.

 

[BlkGS]

Other brand have their own version of all of that. Phone as a key? You get that in basically everything (and it's a terrible idea, because now you're locked out of 2 important devices if your phone is lost, broken, or stolen). Tesla maps? Nav systems have existed for decades now. Nav that calculates in your EV charging stops? Standard EV fare.

Sandy Munro is a paid influencer, he's about as unbiased as Elon Musk would be. His job is to sell you on Tesla superiority. To his followers, he does a good job too.

The big advantage Tesla has is price. They have all their development paid for because they were given a carbon credit market that they had essentially exclusive access to. All the other automakers were forced by the EPA to buy their carbon credits, which paid for all of Tesla's infrastructure and development. Now the automakers also have to pay for their own development and infrastructure, so they can't compete with Tesla on price. But that's ok because Congress and the government types that made that happen all invested in Tesla stock and made millions and millions of dollars.

If a president were to issue an executive order saying that the carbon credit market was being reversed, and that any money paid for them should be refunded, pegged to inflation, and with interest, Tesla would probably crumble. If they survived, they'd need a huge emergency funding lifeline to cover paying back all the carbon credit money.

 

[Coult45]

Other brand have their own version of all of that. Phone as a key? You get that in basically everything (and it's a terrible idea, because now you're locked out of 2 important devices if your phone is lost, broken, or stolen). Tesla maps? Nav systems have existed for decades now. Nav that calculates in your EV charging stops? Standard EV fare.

Sandy Munro is a paid influencer, he's about as unbiased as Elon Musk would be. His job is to sell you on Tesla superiority. To his followers, he does a good job too.

The big advantage Tesla has is price. They have all their development paid for because they were given a carbon credit market that they had essentially exclusive access to. All the other automakers were forced by the EPA to buy their carbon credits, which paid for all of Tesla's infrastructure and development. Now the automakers also have to pay for their own development and infrastructure, so they can't compete with Tesla on price. But that's ok because Congress and the government types that made that happen all invested in Tesla stock and made millions and millions of dollars.

If a president were to issue an executive order saying that the carbon credit market was being reversed, and that any money paid for them should be refunded, pegged to inflation, and with interest, Tesla would probably crumble. If they survived, they'd need a huge emergency funding lifeline to cover paying back all the carbon credit money.

Phone as a Key isn't really a risk anymore if you lose your phone. The MachE can be unlocked with a touchpad code on the door, and can be started and driven with a touchpad backup code on the dash. I'm guessing other EVs have similar emergency backup options.

 

[BlkGS]

Phone as a Key isn't really a risk anymore if you lose your phone. The MachE can be unlocked with a touchpad code on the door, and can be started and driven with a touchpad backup code on the dash. I'm guessing other EVs have similar emergency backup options.

I dunno, I'm looking at a BMW with it and I dislike the idea intensely, lol. I don't even really lose my.phone regularly, I just feel like if my phone gets any more important... I will, lol.

 

[zpaul]

Other brand have their own version of all of that. Phone as a key? You get that in basically everything (and it's a terrible idea, because now you're locked out of 2 important devices if your phone is lost, broken, or stolen). Tesla maps? Nav systems have existed for decades now. Nav that calculates in your EV charging stops? Standard EV fare.

Sandy Munro is a paid influencer, he's about as unbiased as Elon Musk would be. His job is to sell you on Tesla superiority. To his followers, he does a good job too.

The big advantage Tesla has is price. They have all their development paid for because they were given a carbon credit market that they had essentially exclusive access to. All the other automakers were forced by the EPA to buy their carbon credits, which paid for all of Tesla's infrastructure and development. Now the automakers also have to pay for their own development and infrastructure, so they can't compete with Tesla on price. But that's ok because Congress and the government types that made that happen all invested in Tesla stock and made millions and millions of dollars.

If a president were to issue an executive order saying that the carbon credit market was being reversed, and that any money paid for them should be refunded, pegged to inflation, and with interest, Tesla would probably crumble. If they survived, they'd need a huge emergency funding lifeline to cover paying back all the carbon credit money.

Phone key is an awesome idea, approach the car, driver door unlocks, get out of the car and car lock itself. Fail ratio is 0.01% on Tesla.
Lost your phone or it is stolen - get in touch with Tesla or your wife and she can unlock your car remotely and let you drive home. Can you do that with lost Car key? Can you find a dealer that will cut you a key Sunday 7 PM so you can get home from your trip 500 miles away?!?! Doubt it and it will cost you pretty money too. Tesla card that I would recommend to carry as a back up cost $25 and you can program to your Tesla on your own. But hey you can loose your wallet too
No other EV has good charger network integration with the vehicle, and if they do they route you to Walmart lot where those charging stations are off line. With Tesla if it sees that supercharger location is busy or offline it will give you other options, you will never run out of juice. For other brands you need to use PlugShare and Charge point apps to get proper status of chargers and plan your route separately from build in map.
I would not say it about Munro 100% Tesla bias, I watched very good reviews on EV Mustang and EV Genesis from him and his team. I love Genesis EV60 but it is $70K with 230 mile range in my view not worth it. Model Y without incentives is $49K 330 mile range and even at that price point Tesla is making profit.
Based on the graph below if other cars are so much better. Why Tesla outsells all of them combined?
People know it has quality issue but still go for it. I doubt it is incentives only.
EV Mustang has those incentives too and actually a very nice vehicle. I rode in one and was very impressed with quality and ride.


Elon took all the incentives he could. I think California was the biggest contributor to his success. But again the whole market was betting against him for years. and still there are people like Bill Gates short Tesla stock. So his road to profit was not as easy as you described.
To me the whole Government incentive thing is BS. I do not need to subsidize people who can afford to buy $50-70k car, and continue subsidize their electricity, road infrastructure after that. Very few states actually charge EV registrations more than regular cars.
I also agree that GM should refund all Government bail out money they received but you and I know it is not going to happen.

 

[BlkGS]

If your phone gets lost or stolen you're not gonna be calling anyone XD. How many people know the phone number for their spouse, let alone a Tesla dealer or something. Maybe some of the older folks that have been together for 40 years, but when I met my spouse her # went right into my phone, I only sort of know it now because she uses it for rewards accounts and stuff, lol.

The BMW has a little card key thing too. Some owners said they used it exclusively cuz they're cheap and you can open and drive and lock the car with it. Seems silly to me, but maybe useful if you're going to the beach or boat or something, you can keep it with you and it doesn't matter if it gets wet or whatever. Jaguar and Land Rover had their "activity key" that was like a bracelet RFID for if you were gonna go hiking or whatever and didn't want to damage an 800$ key.

All the old timers probably get a kick out of these modern problems, and say "back in my day we duct taped a spare key to the rear axle!"

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

All the old timers probably get a kick out of these modern problems, and say "back in my day we duct taped a spare key to the rear axle!"

Or bought a little magnetic key holder!

I read some of the other posts about all the cool sh$t that Tesla offers. At this point, I don’t really give a crap about a lot of the cutting edge technology offered byTesla and some of the other manufacturers. Don’t need auto-pilot. Don’t need to stream the meta verse, just my satellite radio or my Spotify through my phone. I just want a moderately priced vehicle that can reliably get me when I am going.

I think that Musk is a true visionary, but am so tired of him that I don’t think I’ll consider buying a Tesla as my first EV.

Jim

 

[zpaul]

If your phone gets lost or stolen you're not gonna be calling anyone XD. How many people know the phone number for their spouse, let alone a Tesla dealer or something. Maybe some of the older folks that have been together for 40 years, but when I met my spouse her # went right into my phone, I only sort of know it now because she uses it for rewards accounts and stuff, lol.

The BMW has a little card key thing too. Some owners said they used it exclusively cuz they're cheap and you can open and drive and lock the car with it. Seems silly to me, but maybe useful if you're going to the beach or boat or something, you can keep it with you and it doesn't matter if it gets wet or whatever. Jaguar and Land Rover had their "activity key" that was like a bracelet RFID for if you were gonna go hiking or whatever and didn't want to damage an 800$ key.

All the old timers probably get a kick out of these modern problems, and say "back in my day we duct taped a spare key to the rear axle!"

Again same issue with lost key - not an easy issue to sort out if you are 500 miles away from your house.

My daughter lost her phone and still was able to reach me since she knows my number and called from borrowed phone. Initially I dropped that unknown number couple times and eventually she texted for me to pick up.
It is important to know at least 4-5 numbers of family and friends who are willing to help you.
As I sad always wear Tesla card on you it is a size of the credit card, but even if you don't Tesla will verify your identity even if you do not call from your number by your Teals ID, your address, and other security questions.
Toyota Highlander Key is like $380?!?! Talking about Toyota, Highlander comes with Remote start, but that remote start works only from the Toyota App which is NOT free. WTF I am paying to put remote start that requires subscription? BMW were selling subscription for heated seats that are already installed in the car you bought!!! All these suckers just trying to find ways to maximize their profits.
I wish more manufacturers used either phone or Cards like Tesla that you can add and delete as you pleased. Also makes it more difficult to steal vs regular remote.
On our long trips we bring a spare key, one for me one for my wife in case we loose one.

 

[zpaul]

Or bought a little magnetic key holder!

I read some of the other posts about all the cool sh$t that Tesla offers. At this point, I don’t really give a crap about a lot of the cutting edge technology offered byTesla and some of the other manufacturers. Don’t need auto-pilot. Don’t need to stream the meta verse, just my satellite radio or my Spotify through my phone. I just want a moderately priced vehicle that can reliably get me when I am going.

I think that Musk is a true visionary, but am so tired of him that I don’t think I’ll consider buying a Tesla as my first EV.

Jim

Jim,
Tesla "Autopilot" is basically a Cruise Control with lane assist and automatic breaking.
Most cars are now have this feature as standard option on the car. On Tesla it just works flawlessly except sometimes it sees ghosts and breaks for no reason.
I found that Toyota has the shittiest Cruise Control and lane assist out of the ones I tried.
I liked Ford, Honda, Hyundai they hold the car between lines decently, and follow the cars on road trips.
Toyota just gives up crosse lines and beeps non stop.

Tesla Self driving does not interest me at all for $12,000. Not sure how would I even use it? I am sure I will hit all the potholes on my way to Target.

 

[BlkGS]

Again same issue with lost key - not an easy issue to sort out if you are 500 miles away from your house.

My daughter lost her phone and still was able to reach me since she knows my number and called from borrowed phone. Initially I dropped that unknown number couple times and eventually she texted for me to pick up.
It is important to know at least 4-5 numbers of family and friends who are willing to help you.
As I sad always wear Tesla card on you it is a size of the credit card, but even if you don't Tesla will verify your identity even if you do not call from your number by your Teals ID, your address, and other security questions.
Toyota Highlander Key is like $380?!?! Talking about Toyota, Highlander comes with Remote start, but that remote start works only from the Toyota App which is NOT free. WTF I am paying to put remote start that requires subscription? BMW were selling subscription for heated seats that are already installed in the car you bought!!! All these suckers just trying to find ways to maximize their profits.
I wish more manufacturers used either phone or Cards like Tesla that you can add and delete as you pleased. Also makes it more difficult to steal vs regular remote.
On our long trips we bring a spare key, one for me one for my wife in case we loose one.

Subscription for stuff sucks. BMW was doing something sort of smart, but also shady. You could pay for a feature up front, and always have it. If you didn't, they still installed the components, because things like heated seats elements are cheaper to install on everything than to maybe install or maybe not. So if the original owner didn't buy them as part of the order, they could buy them via subscription. So in theory you could buy them for only the winter and not pay for them over the summer. It's not more cost effective, because the cost to subscribe for 3 years (the most cost effective option) is still like 25% more than just buying the feature.

I don't understand who would do this except for maybe if you lived in FL, leased a stripped out car to say you have a BMW, and then when you turned it in the second owner needs them, they get really screwed having to pay for them monthly. Or more likely, they hire someone to code all those features in and then turn off OTA updates, but you know, in theory they've got that second owner by the balls so to speak.

If I lose my keys and have my.phone, I can call a tow truck. If I lose my phone and have my keys, I can drive home..if I lose my phone that is my key, I'm totally screwed.

 

[zpaul]

Big benefit for me in Ramcharger is range, towing, and not worry to run out of juice.
He may be right about Lightning for average user, but people who tow or have boats and want to travel may disagree.
What will stop me from buying Ramcharger is price. Hope Ramcharger is a wakeup call for others and we see some competition.

I feel all these YouTubers will say nice things so they can get more vehicles to test.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Jim,
Tesla "Autopilot" is basically a Cruise Control with lane assist and automatic breaking.
Most cars are now have this feature as standard option on the car. On Tesla it just works flawlessly except sometimes it sees ghosts and breaks for no reason.
I found that Toyota has the shittiest Cruise Control and lane assist out of the ones I tried.
I liked Ford, Honda, Hyundai they hold the car between lines decently, and follow the cars on road trips.
Toyota just gives up crosse lines and beeps non stop.

Tesla Self driving does not interest me at all for $12,000. Not sure how would I even use it? I am sure I will hit all the potholes on my way to Target.

Thanks for the correction. Yea, cruise control with lane assist is a big positive. Auto breaking is one of those things that can either save your life or be a pain in the ass. Guess saving you life is a much bigger pro! Don’t need self driving. Wonder what I will think when I’m 10 years older?

Jim

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Big benefit for me in Ramcharger is range, towing, and not worry to run out of juice.
He may be right about Lightning for average user, but people who tow or have boats and want to travel may disagree.
What will stop me from buying Ramcharger is price. Hope Ramcharger is a wakeup call for others and we see some competition.

I feel all these YouTubers will say nice things so they can get more vehicles to test.

I agree with your thoughts about the first video. He seems to forget that many people buy trucks to work and that extended range will be very important for these buyers. When we have talked about towing mileage in the past, it seems that a 1/3 range loss for both ICE and EV are pretty common. If you assumed a 1/3 towing loss on a 690 mile range, that would still be a very respectable 460 miles. Add in that the “working” numbers are awesome - 14,000 lb max towing and 2,625 of max payload and the truck looks great for someone who wants a working vehicle.

The second video was pretty good!

The million dollar question, for me personally, is the price. I had planned on buying a compact SUV EV in 2025, but if the prices are reasonable, may consider waiting another year for a 2026 Ramcharger instead. Reasonable to me would be a nicely equipped truck in the low 60’s.

Jim

 

[zpaul]

I agree with your thoughts about the first video. He seems to forget that many people buy trucks to work and that extended range will be very important for these buyers. When we have talked about towing mileage in the past, it seems that a 1/3 range loss for both ICE and EV are pretty common. If you assumed a 1/3 towing loss on a 690 mile range, that would still be a very respectable 460 miles. Add in that the “working” numbers are awesome - 14,000 lb max towing and 2,625 of max payload and the truck looks great for someone who wants a working vehicle.

The second video was pretty good!

The million dollar question, for me personally, is the price. I had planned on buying a compact SUV EV in 2025, but if the prices are reasonable, may consider waiting another year for a 2026 Ramcharger instead. Reasonable to me would be a nicely equipped truck in the low 60’s.

Jim

I think Ramcharger will be at least $90k.
That 92kwh pack is probably $20k alone.

 

[BlkGS]

I agree with your thoughts about the first video. He seems to forget that many people buy trucks to work and that extended range will be very important for these buyers. When we have talked about towing mileage in the past, it seems that a 1/3 range loss for both ICE and EV are pretty common. If you assumed a 1/3 towing loss on a 690 mile range, that would still be a very respectable 460 miles. Add in that the “working” numbers are awesome - 14,000 lb max towing and 2,625 of max payload and the truck looks great for someone who wants a working vehicle.

The second video was pretty good!

The million dollar question, for me personally, is the price. I had planned on buying a compact SUV EV in 2025, but if the prices are reasonable, may consider waiting another year for a 2026 Ramcharger instead. Reasonable to me would be a nicely equipped truck in the low 60’s.

Jim

Depends what you consider nicely equipped.

I think if you want a crew cab with cloth seats, maybe heated, that's a very real possibility. If you want leather, a big moonroof, cooled seats, radar cruise, all that stuff.... Not a chance in hell, because that's a $80k truck today as a gas truck.

I think a fully loaded Ramcharger will probably be a 7500-12500 price increase over the hurricane I6.

Keep in mind, a KIA EV6 GT-Line is almost $55k today.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Depends what you consider nicely equipped.

I think if you want a crew cab with cloth seats, maybe heated, that's a very real possibility. If you want leather, a big moonroof, cooled seats, radar cruise, all that stuff.... Not a chance in hell, because that's a $80k truck today as a gas truck.

I think a fully loaded Ramcharger will probably be a 7500-12500 price increase over the hurricane I6.

Keep in mind, a KIA EV6 GT-Line is almost $55k today.

Don’t need too fancy. Quad cab (not crew cab), heated cloth seats, heated steering wheel, regular sunroof/moonroof, and a trailer brake controller. Also don’t mind buying end of the year leftovers, as I‘ve done this with my last two Rams.

Jim