Student loan forgiveness....

[BlkGS]

Sounds like a case of misplaced expectations thinking a high school should be responsible for teaching kids to understand budgets and make smart decisions. IMO, that’s the parents responsibility.

Edit: @BlkGS Based on your earlier post I think you’re a prime example of a parent teaching kids how to make smart decisions. I hope I’m able to have a similar impact on my boys.

Amazingly, no. My parents were working class people who didn't have much. Every time they got a little bit ahead, they would blow it pretty quickly. Theyre retirement age now with basically nothing but a lot of "stuff" and they wasted most of their savings on supporting my 30 year old sister for a decade, and assorted heavy equipment to try to turn 10 acres of forest into a home (they don't have a house yet there BTW).

I pretty much figured it out on my own. I did grow up around a lot of rich people so I saw how they operated, and I played a lot of simcity as a kid, lol. Honestly it was a great game because it forced you to evaluate the cost of taking on debt, the ROI of investments, etc.

 

[Beachbummer]

The problem is it isn't simply a financial decision. The choice for many of these kids is between a career flipping burgers and becoming a doctor. Most decent jobs require a degree meaning that going to college is essential to having opportunities at a better life. If you want to take a position that its ok to price kids out of opportunities like this, you're going to live in a country where only the children of wealth folks get the job because they are the only ones who get the degree. We don't need to take the eye off the big picture, where these loan companies and many schools worked together to create massive increases in tuition that weren't reality based, while at the same time, politicians who took money from loan companies cut budgets from higher education which further increased tuition which created more opportunities for loan servicers to earn interest. The whole system is broken and the only people who are facing any consequences are the students who had little choice but accept the deal they were given.

You had me until this statement. There are a wide variety of schools at significantly different costs and a variety of careers that require vocation and talent and pay according to market conditions in their area. Everyone had a choice and accepted the deal as offered. Everyone had a free choice. Perhaps the argument could be made that the consequences were not clear or well understood, but those that paid in full also were affected by higher costs and made sacrifices to pay then. The government spending "everyone's" money to offer relief to the few that took the money and have not paid it back is understandably not popular among those that paid their way already or chose to not attend college in the first place.

It's pretty crappy to owe a payment on something you are not getting great value from. Vacation already taken, Vegas losses on the credit card, paying on a car that has been trashed but you were under insured and still owe on, Student Loan for a degree you wish you could go back and decide differently on... really crappy places to be. BUT, there's someone else gave up the privilege of using that money, and there was an agreement to pay it back. If it's not life or death urgent, you always have a choice. If we start the problem statement with an acknowledgement that there is responsibility there in the loan recipient, there may be more reception to accommodations. That is missing from all the current mainstream conversations on the topic.

 

[Taylorman]

The problem is it isn't simply a financial decision. The choice for many of these kids is between a career flipping burgers and becoming a doctor. Most decent jobs require a degree meaning that going to college is essential to having opportunities at a better life. If you want to take a position that its ok to price kids out of opportunities like this, you're going to live in a country where only the children of wealth folks get the job because they are the only ones who get the degree. We don't need to take the eye off the big picture, where these loan companies and many schools worked together to create massive increases in tuition that weren't reality based, while at the same time, politicians who took money from loan companies cut budgets from higher education which further increased tuition which created more opportunities for loan servicers to earn interest. The whole system is broken and the only people who are facing any consequences are the students who had little choice but accept the deal they were given.

I think the problem is the perception is that it takes a degree to get a decent job. The reality is there are plenty of alternative paths. One member on this thread mentioned his 23 year old getting multiple welding certs and a job starting at $150k/year. There are plenty of computer programming/dev training courses outside of a 4-year degree that lead to 6 figure jobs as well. There are options but they are not as widely promoted or as highly thought of in our society as a college degree. And it’s a shame that is the case.

 

[djetok]

The problem is it isn't simply a financial decision. The choice for many of these kids is between a career flipping burgers and becoming a doctor. Most decent jobs require a degree meaning that going to college is essential to having opportunities at a better life. If you want to take a position that its ok to price kids out of opportunities like this, you're going to live in a country where only the children of wealth folks get the job because they are the only ones who get the degree. We don't need to take the eye off the big picture, where these loan companies and many schools worked together to create massive increases in tuition that weren't reality based, while at the same time, politicians who took money from loan companies cut budgets from higher education which further increased tuition which created more opportunities for loan servicers to earn interest. The whole system is broken and the only people who are facing any consequences are the students who had little choice but accept the deal they were given.

So, I have 4 kids. 1 kid from previous marriage that has medical issues but still works and supports himself with little help from his mother and I. A daughter that went to community college for 1 year to get some prereqs out, then went to UO and then went to Johns Hopkins Med. A daughter that just graduated RN school. My last kid is my son. His choice is going to diesel tech school and then he will work for us at the business as a mechanic and work his way up to owner. There are a ton of vocational jobs that pay well. I have a diesel mechanic that makes 6 figures on a 50 hour work week.

 

[Taylorman]

Amazingly, no. My parents were working class people who didn't have much. Every time they got a little bit ahead, they would blow it pretty quickly. Theyre retirement age now with basically nothing but a lot of "stuff" and they wasted most of their savings on supporting my 30 year old sister for a decade, and assorted heavy equipment to try to turn 10 acres of forest into a home (they don't have a house yet there BTW).

I pretty much figured it out on my own. I did grow up around a lot of rich people so I saw how they operated, and I played a lot of simcity as a kid, lol. Honestly it was a great game because it forced you to evaluate the cost of taking on debt, the ROI of investments, etc.

I was referring to the impact you’re having on your kids.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think the problem is the perception is that it takes a degree to get a decent job. The reality is there are plenty of alternative paths. One member on this thread mentioned his 23 year old getting multiple welding certs and a job starting at $150k/year. There are plenty of computer programming/dev training courses outside of a 4-year degree that lead to 6 figure jobs as well. There are options but they are not as widely promoted or as highly thought of in our society as a college degree. And it’s a shame that is the case.

Strongly agree here.

• My best friend is on track to make over $500k this year on a 2yr cert. Got his foot in the door, worked a few years for experience, and off he went.
• Wifes best friends husband is a pipfitter. Went through the apprenticeship program, worked in the field for about 5yrs. Moved into the office last year as an estimator. He's on track to clear $200k this year.
• I have a 4yr degree and working on a masters, and just cleared $100k for the first time a few years ago.
• Dad has a 4yr degree from a state school and has never cleared $90k and likely won't ever at his current rate.

Point being, 4 year degrees are NOT the answer a lot of times, even most of the time honestly. Changing that perception takes time and effort.

 

[Southernerd]

You had me until this statement. There are a wide variety of schools at significantly different costs and a variety of careers that require vocation and talent and pay according to market conditions in their area. Everyone had a choice and accepted the deal as offered. Everyone had a free choice. Perhaps the argument could be made that the consequences were not clear or well understood, but those that paid in full also were affected by higher costs and made sacrifices to pay then. The government spending "everyone's" money to offer relief to the few that took the money and have not paid it back is understandably not popular among those that paid their way already or chose to not attend college in the first place.

It's pretty crappy to owe a payment on something you are not getting great value from. Vacation already taken, Vegas losses on the credit card, paying on a car that has been trashed but you were under insured and still owe on, Student Loan for a degree you wish you could go back and decide differently on... really crappy places to be. BUT, there's someone else gave up the privilege of using that money, and there was an agreement to pay it back. If it's not life or death urgent, you always have a choice. If we start the problem statement with an acknowledgement that there is responsibility there in the loan recipient, there may be more reception to accommodations. That is missing from all the current mainstream conversations on the topic.

We can likely reach some agreement with what we have to work with. I understand the idea of opportunity cost for those funds. My idea on loan forgiveness is to focus on interest, especially where you have a middle man lender taking interest on a federal loan, and especially where those lenders as a business practiced lobbied governments and institutions for policies that would increase tuition. This problem of massive tuition increases can be tracked back to decisions which handed control of the system to banks rather than government administrators. This doesn't mean that there isn't stupidity throughout. There are a lot of degrees that simply shouldn't be offered at certain tuition rates. I remember when I started college, I received a brochure from Vanderbilt advertising their teaching program and what caught my attention was that the annual tuition was more than the annual pay of the job you would get with the degree. I guess, for me, folks pointing the finger at students, as if that's the problem, is offensive when there was what amounts to a systemic effort to make this happen. People who went to college before 1996 had a completely different experience and probably don't have a clue what happened to the entire higher education system in this country. This was planned and deliberate and since it only affects people in a certain age range its easy for folks to blow it off. It reminds me of people defending health insurance companies a couple years. Just because they didn't screw you doesn't mean they aren't screwing other people, and if they only screw 10% they can make a lot of money convincing the other 90% they're the good guys.

 

[adrianp89]

Let's look at it from a different perspective..

We are now saying that kids at 17/18 aren't capable of making big choices about their life and understanding the implications and costs of those choices. Because of this, we want to continue schooling with university. But that ignores the root cause, that the education system failed them already. The education system failed to prepare them for life at 18, and failed to give them the tools to understand their budgets. The real issue then isn't student loan debt, it's high schools not preparing kids to make intelligent decisions.

This x100.

High School does not prepare you for the world. I don't need to learn how a cell functions. If I did - I can learn that in college as a speciality. I need to learn how to do my taxes, understand interest rates, how loans work, etc. The subjects can go on for a while. I only know how to write checks because I choose a Life Skills class my senior year of High School. My wife and many of my friends have no idea how to write checks.

 

[Southernerd]

So, I have 4 kids. 1 kid from previous marriage that has medical issues but still works and supports himself with little help from his mother and I. A daughter that went to community college for 1 year to get some prereqs out, then went to UO and then went to Johns Hopkins Med. A daughter that just graduated RN school. My last kid is my son. His choice is going to diesel tech school and then he will work for us at the business as a mechanic and work his way up to owner. There are a ton of vocational jobs that pay well. I have a diesel mechanic that makes 6 figures on a 50 hour work week.

I don't disagree with you. I've talked to my Highschool son quite a bit about trades, primarily because tuition and student loans are out of control. There are examples like the one you cited, but the number don't lie. The higher the level of education, the higher the pay and the less likely you are to become unemployed.

 

[crazy4life]

I think the problem is the perception is that it takes a degree to get a decent job. The reality is there are plenty of alternative paths. One member on this thread mentioned his 23 year old getting multiple welding certs and a job starting at $150k/year. There are plenty of computer programming/dev training courses outside of a 4-year degree that lead to 6 figure jobs as well. There are options but they are not as widely promoted or as highly thought of in our society as a college degree. And it’s a shame that is the case.

My son is an apprentice pipe fitter. Started out 5 years ago right out of high school. Works 5 days a week and most saturdays. Started at 20 bucks an hour and got raises every year. Also has a pension and contributes 12 an hour to a srp plan. In 2 months his rate will be 64.00 an hour. Basically can weld any 2 metals together and also has every orbital cert. He got paid to learn these skills. While his high school buddies we’re partying at their high priced college he was working his butt off. 23 years old and has 60 K in a plan and works his ass off. Works about 2400 hrs a year. You do the math. This country is begging for skilled trades and nobody wants to apply. Everybody wants to go to college and earn 40k a year with their bullshit marketing degree. This country needs skilled tradesmen desperately. Gonna have to start importing them from other countries. So I don’t buy the college route or you have to flip burgers. The opportunities are out there but you are going to have to work for them.

When I applied in 1985 there were 800 applicants for 25 spots. Today you are lucky to get a hundred.

 

[Southernerd]

My son is an apprentice pipe fitter. Started out 5 years ago right out of high school. Works 5 days a week and most saturdays. Started at 20 bucks an hour and got raises every year. Also has a pension and contributes 12 an hour to a srp plan. In 2 months his rate will be 64.00 an hour. Basically can weld any 2 metals together and also has every orbital cert. He got paid to learn these skills. While his high school buddies we’re partying at their high priced college he was working his butt off. 23 years old and has 60 K in a plan and works his ass off. Works about 2400 hrs a year. You do the math. This country is begging for skilled trades and nobody wants to apply. Everybody wants to go to college and earn 40k a year with their bullshit marketing degree. This country needs skilled tradesmen desperately. Gonna have to start importing them from other countries. So I don’t buy the college route or you have to flip burgers. The opportunities are out there but you are going to have to work for them.

When I applied in 1985 there were 800 applicants for 25 spots. Today you are lucky to get a hundred.

Four million kids will be graduating high-school this year. A percentage will need to be doctors, teachers, mechanics, engineers, real estate agents, etc. They can't all be pipe fitters, blowing off a societal problem because it doesn't affect you doesn't make it go away for the rest of the country. Its a real issue that will have consequences for all of us.

 

[adrianp89]

Four million kids will be graduating high-school this year. A percentage will need to be doctors, teachers, mechanics, engineers, real estate agents, etc. They can't all be pipe fitters, blowing off a societal problem because it doesn't affect you doesn't make it go away for the rest of the country. Its a real issue that will have consequences for all of us.

Trust me - we don't need any more real estate agents lol

 

[djetok]

Four million kids will be graduating high-school this year. A percentage will need to be doctors, teachers, mechanics, engineers, real estate agents, etc. They can't all be pipe fitters, blowing off a societal problem because it doesn't affect you doesn't make it go away for the rest of the country. Its a real issue that will have consequences for all of us.

You both are saying the same thing , he's just advocating for vocational skills , in which we are sadly low on.

 

[BigN8]

The problem is it isn't simply a financial decision. The choice for many of these kids is between a career flipping burgers and becoming a doctor. Most decent jobs require a degree meaning that going to college is essential to having opportunities at a better life. If you want to take a position that its ok to price kids out of opportunities like this, you're going to live in a country where only the children of wealth folks get the job because they are the only ones who get the degree. We don't need to take the eye off the big picture, where these loan companies and many schools worked together to create massive increases in tuition that weren't reality based, while at the same time, politicians who took money from loan companies cut budgets from higher education which further increased tuition which created more opportunities for loan servicers to earn interest. The whole system is broken and the only people who are facing any consequences are the students who had little choice but accept the deal they were given.

I have to disagree with "most decent jobs require a degree". I know many many people who make a damn good living and did not get a degree. Case in point one of my Navy buddies. We both were in the Nuclear Field in the Navy. He transitioned out of the Navy and now is a shift supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant in Connecticut making damn near $200k a year. There are numerous examples of this. Whether you receive your training and experience in the military, or you just start in a career filed and gain knowledge and experience to advance, you can still have a "decent job" without the over priced piece of paper hanging on the wall. The problem is just what I eluded to in my previous post. Kids coming out of high school aren't programed to start a career. They are programed to go do the 4 year gig not knowing what they want to do, but knowing they will have a kick ass time getting wasted, cheering for their football team, and not learning a damn thing. We have a guy that just started as a junior territory manager at our company. We sell commercial roofing materials for the low slope roofing industry. Dude graduated from Baylor with a major in English Lit. Give me a fucking break..... That degree which is absolutely fucking unless had to cost him $250k. And now he is working at GAF selling commercial roofing materials next to a guy that never went to college. Now, if he sticks with it, his room for advancement is huge, and he will have the opportunity to make some real good money, with extremely good benefits. But, he could have had a 4 year head start had he not wasted his time at Baylor. College is over rated. Unless you know you want to be a Doctor, or Lawyer, or some other profession which requires that extra level of education.......forget about it.

 

[Southernerd]

You both are saying the same thing , he's just advocating for vocational skills , in which we are sadly low on.

I can appreciate that. I guess from my perspective, the conversation on this topic comes across dismissive at times. I agree that the vocations are a great opportunity, especially now. What I'm concerned about is the idea that there isn't a real problem.

 

[Southernerd]

I have to disagree with "most decent jobs require a degree". I know many many people who make a damn good living and did not get a degree. Case in point one of my Navy buddies. We both were in the Nuclear Field in the Navy. He transitioned out of the Navy and now is a shift supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant in Connecticut making damn near $200k a year. There are numerous examples of this. Whether you receive your training and experience in the military, or you just start in a career filed and gain knowledge and experience to advance, you can still have a "decent job" without the over priced piece of paper hanging on the wall. The problem is just what I eluded to in my previous post. Kids coming out of high school aren't programed to start a career. They are programed to go do the 4 year gig not knowing what they want to do, but knowing they will have a kick ass time getting wasted, cheering for their football team, and not learning a damn thing. We have a guy that just started as a junior territory manager at our company. We sell commercial roofing materials for the low slope roofing industry. Dude graduated from Baylor with a major in English Lit. Give me a fucking break..... That degree which is absolutely fucking unless had to cost him $250k. And now he is working at GAF selling commercial roofing materials next to a guy that never went to college. Now, if he sticks with it, his room for advancement is huge, and he will have the opportunity to make some real good money, with extremely good benefits. But, he could have had a 4 year head start had he not wasted his time at Baylor. College is over rated. Unless you know you want to be a Doctor, or Lawyer, or some other profession which requires that extra level of education.......forget about it.

I think this is a macro/micro perspective issue. You aren't wrong but when you aggregate there are clear advantages to college education.

 

[BlkGS]

Trust me - we don't need any more real estate agents lol

If you have half a brain you can make a great living as an agent, most of them are total morons.

 

[Maineiac]

I have to disagree with "most decent jobs require a degree". I know many many people who make a damn good living and did not get a degree. Case in point one of my Navy buddies. We both were in the Nuclear Field in the Navy. He transitioned out of the Navy and now is a shift supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant in Connecticut making damn near $200k a year. There are numerous examples of this. Whether you receive your training and experience in the military, or you just start in a career filed and gain knowledge and experience to advance, you can still have a "decent job" without the over priced piece of paper hanging on the wall. The problem is just what I eluded to in my previous post. Kids coming out of high school aren't programed to start a career. They are programed to go do the 4 year gig not knowing what they want to do, but knowing they will have a kick ass time getting wasted, cheering for their football team, and not learning a damn thing. We have a guy that just started as a junior territory manager at our company. We sell commercial roofing materials for the low slope roofing industry. Dude graduated from Baylor with a major in English Lit. Give me a fucking break..... That degree which is absolutely fucking unless had to cost him $250k. And now he is working at GAF selling commercial roofing materials next to a guy that never went to college. Now, if he sticks with it, his room for advancement is huge, and he will have the opportunity to make some real good money, with extremely good benefits. But, he could have had a 4 year head start had he not wasted his time at Baylor. College is over rated. Unless you know you want to be a Doctor, or Lawyer, or some other profession which requires that extra level of education.......forget about it.

The military is an excellent career path and a great way to get specialized training that you can leverage into a career. However, not everyone can join up whether it be for heath or other reasons.

I think the point that a few here are trying to make is that everyone’s situation is different and there probably isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. College isn’t the route for everyone, but it is for some. The “screw you, I got mine”and the “I didn’t need to do X, so you shouldn’t either”attitude needs to change. So does the attitude of people looking down on folks without degrees. I left college to join the military and so many people looked down on me for that but I’ve managed to do alright I think.

The world has changed a lot since I went to college. When I started school in 98, you could actually afford tuition at a state school with a part time job and maybe a small loan. Try doing that now. I have a kid in school right now and I’m shocked at how much it costs nowadays. Thank god for the GI Bill.

 

[crazy4life]

I think this is a macro/micro perspective issue. You aren't wrong but when you aggregate there are clear advantages to college education.
View attachment 178868

Nobody’s arguing about getting a college education. The point of this entire thread is the people should not have to pay for your kid to go to college. Maybe we could put a check off on everybody’s tax returns like the contributions for politics and you could donate a percentage of your salary to go for scholarships. I think that would be good idea so that the people who want to send other peoples kids to college can have an opportunity to do so.

 

[Southernerd]

Then by all means go to college and get an education Sandra kids the couch and have them get an education either way you could pay for it or they could pay for it goes I don’t have to pay for it

Nobody’s arguing about getting a college education. The point of this entire thread is the people should not have to pay for your kid to go to college. Maybe we could put a check off on everybody’s tax returns like the contributions for politics and you could donate a percentage of your salary to go for scholarships. I think that would be good idea so that the people who want to send other peoples to kids to college can have an opportunity to do so.

Personally, I think that banks and university administrators shouldn't be able to collude to increase the debt burden on students, but I guess its easier to blame students than take the time to understand why this issue even exists. And certainly, we mustn't do anything that impairs their ability to profit from the disaster they created. [HASH=6547]#hailcorporate[/HASH]