Student loan forgiveness....

[Taylorman]

The military is an excellent career path and a great way to get specialized training that you can leverage into a career. However, not everyone can join up whether it be for heath or other reasons.

I think the point that a few here are trying to make is that everyone’s situation is different and there probably isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. College isn’t the route for everyone, but it is for some. The “screw you, I got mine”and the “I didn’t need to do X, so you shouldn’t either”attitude needs to change. So does the attitude of people looking down on folks without degrees. I left college to join the military and so many people looked down on me for that but I’ve managed to do alright I think.

The world has changed a lot since I went to college. When I started school in 98, you could actually afford tuition at a state school with a part time job and maybe a small loan. Try doing that now. I have a kid in school right now and I’m shocked at how much it costs nowadays. Thank god for the GI Bill.

I couldn’t agree more that we need a variety of options. To my earlier point, that applies at the college level as well. All degrees should not cost the same nor require the same amount of time to complete. Social workers are needed but they shouldn’t have to take on the same level of debt as an engineer. Colleges lump every degree into the same value prop but that’s not reality. The education path should be align to the ROI available in that career.

 

[djetok]

I think this is a macro/micro perspective issue. You aren't wrong but when you aggregate there are clear advantages to college education.
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When I ran a couple of states for a large trash company. We were pushed in the mid 2000's to hire people with marketing degree for salespeople. I liked to hire sales people as opposed to a college grad that I would have to train to sell. Why would our corporation push us to hire college grads? They were cheap and plentiful. You would hire an experienced sales person for 60k per year base plus commissions and they would make 120 to 150k per year if they were good. You hired a college grad for 24k base plus commission and they would make 80k if they were good.

I really feel that a lot of owners of business try to hire with experience over education now.

 

[BlkGS]

I couldn’t agree more that we need a variety of options. To my earlier point, that applies at the college level as well. All degrees should not cost the same nor require the same amount of time to complete. Social workers are needed but they shouldn’t have to take on the same level of debt as an engineer. Colleges lump every degree into the same value prop but that’s not reality. The education path should be align to the ROI available in that career.

I disagree here. Tuition should be based on cost, and 4 years will overall cost the same regardless of degree. That someone chooses a career that doesn't pay as much as another is on them, and they shouldn't pay less because of that. All that would do is subsidize education for low paying jobs off student who get into higher paying fields.

 

[Julian]

I disagree here. Tuition should be based on cost, and 4 years will overall cost the same regardless of degree. That someone chooses a career that doesn't pay as much as another is on them, and they shouldn't pay less because of that. All that would do is subsidize education for low paying jobs off student who get into higher paying fields.

I disagree. A 4 year medical degree will (today) cost more than a 4 year degree in art. Why? Because the doctor to teach you medicine is in far more demand than the art teacher. Its supply and demand at work again. Not to mention the equipment needed to teach medicine is far more costly than art.

 

[Southernerd]

I disagree here. Tuition should be based on cost, and 4 years will overall cost the same regardless of degree. That someone chooses a career that doesn't pay as much as another is on them, and they shouldn't pay less because of that. All that would do is subsidize education for low paying jobs off student who get into higher paying fields.

A cost model would be nice. When I was in law school, the university was collecting over 30k in tuition per class meeting based on the number of students in the lecture. The professor, who taught 6 sections, represented over 5 million in tuition collected per semester.

 

[AZMark]

I have to disagree with "most decent jobs require a degree". I know many many people who make a damn good living and did not get a degree. Case in point one of my Navy buddies. We both were in the Nuclear Field in the Navy. He transitioned out of the Navy and now is a shift supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant in Connecticut making damn near $200k a year. There are numerous examples of this. Whether you receive your training and experience in the military, or you just start in a career filed and gain knowledge and experience to advance, you can still have a "decent job" without the over priced piece of paper hanging on the wall. The problem is just what I eluded to in my previous post. Kids coming out of high school aren't programed to start a career. They are programed to go do the 4 year gig not knowing what they want to do, but knowing they will have a kick ass time getting wasted, cheering for their football team, and not learning a damn thing. We have a guy that just started as a junior territory manager at our company. We sell commercial roofing materials for the low slope roofing industry. Dude graduated from Baylor with a major in English Lit. Give me a fucking break..... That degree which is absolutely fucking unless had to cost him $250k. And now he is working at GAF selling commercial roofing materials next to a guy that never went to college. Now, if he sticks with it, his room for advancement is huge, and he will have the opportunity to make some real good money, with extremely good benefits. But, he could have had a 4 year head start had he not wasted his time at Baylor. College is over rated. Unless you know you want to be a Doctor, or Lawyer, or some other profession which requires that extra level of education.......forget about it.

High school alone is inadequate for the average person. Military, trade school (which have any of you priced that lately???), something more is required.
You know above average people.

 

[BlkGS]

I have a 4yr degree and working on a masters, and just cleared $100k for the first time a few years ago.

So herein lies the issue. Earlier you claimed you were in servitude level debt because of your school, and so others should pay for it. Yet here you're saying you make over 6 figures, which puts you well above average, and likely above a lot of people in this thread. With that income level, there's no reason or excuse that you couldn't pay your loans back. So now since you're well above median income, you're effective asking a lot of people who make less than you to pay for your loans.

 

[BigN8]

Nobody’s arguing about getting a college education. The point of this entire thread is the people should not have to pay for your kid to go to college. Maybe we could put a check off on everybody’s tax returns like the contributions for politics and you could donate a percentage of your salary to go for scholarships. I think that would be good idea so that the people who want to send other peoples kids to college can have an opportunity to do so.

The issue is that both arguments go hand in hand. Kids who can’t afford college are needlessly going. Why? The high schools push it. Peer pressure to be “one of the cool kids” push it, society pushes it. And, due to that pressure to just “continue on because” adds to the problem.

 

[BlkGS]

I disagree. A 4 year medical degree will (today) cost more than a 4 year degree in art. Why? Because the doctor to teach you medicine is in far more demand than the art teacher. Its supply and demand at work again. Not to mention the equipment needed to teach medicine is far more costly than art.

Sure, but that's an extreme example. And really, amortized over the length of time the equipment adds little cost. And really, the medical education doesn't cost more until grad level.

I'm OK with fees being different by actual cost and I think the schools should be required to post a breakdown of those costs, for how the fees were determined. But I don't think it's fair to charge more just because the degree earns more. If you charge more because the professor earn an average of 20% more, that's fine. But also don't have some masters student kid teaching it and doing their grading and such.

 

[2kwik4u]

So herein lies the issue. Earlier you claimed you were in servitude level debt because of your school, and so others should pay for it. Yet here you're saying you make over 6 figures, which puts you well above average, and likely above a lot of people in this thread. With that income level, there's no reason or excuse that you couldn't pay your loans back. So now since you're well above median income, you're effective asking a lot of people who make less than you to pay for your loans.

Nope, I was using it as an example. Speaking in hyperbole to make a point. Clearly it missed the mark.

5 years ago, I was making less than $50k/yr and had $1,169/mo student loan payments. THAT was servitude level debt. I was driving uber at nights to keep cashflow up so that I didn't miss the mortgage. I've had some good fortune, moved jobs, and refinanced my loans to a 20year term at $187/mo since then. I'm not in servitude now, but it's arguable I was then. I'm extremely lucky to be in this position, not everyone is this way, and I'm acknowledging my good fortune and looking to spread some of the love around.

Cap the forgiveness at ~$75k or so. I'll pay mine. Many can't and never will, they're the ones that need the help, and I'm OK helping them.

 

[Taylorman]

I disagree here. Tuition should be based on cost, and 4 years will overall cost the same regardless of degree. That someone chooses a career that doesn't pay as much as another is on them, and they shouldn't pay less because of that. All that would do is subsidize education for low paying jobs off student who get into higher paying fields.

For clarity, I’m not advocating for subsidizing lower paying careers. I’m advocating the model changes to fit the career path. Why is 4 years the right amount of time for every degree? The first two years are mostly just extensions of high school. I was pissed when I got my classes for freshman year and there wasn’t one single class first semester that was going to teach me anything about what I was paying to learn at the time. It’s bloat to justify 4 years of charges when 4 years aren’t needed. Colleges are now charging insane amounts for an “experience” and aren’t given students any other choice. That’s not right.

 

[BlkGS]

Nope, I was using it as an example. Speaking in hyperbole to make a point. Clearly it missed the mark.

5 years ago, I was making less than $50k/yr and had $1,169/mo student loan payments. THAT was servitude level debt. I was driving uber at nights to keep cashflow up so that I didn't miss the mortgage. I've had some good fortune, moved jobs, and refinanced my loans to a 20year term at $187/mo since then. I'm not in servitude now, but it's arguable I was then. I'm extremely lucky to be in this position, not everyone is this way, and I'm acknowledging my good fortune and looking to spread some of the love around.

Cap the forgiveness at ~$75k or so. I'll pay mine. Many can't and never will, they're the ones that need the help, and I'm OK helping them.

I'd cap forgiveness at 80% of median household or personal income, whichever is lower (ie, you make 100k a year but wife doesn't work, you get capped based on your individual income, not household because you choose to have a non working spouse).

 

[djetok]

Nope, I was using it as an example. Speaking in hyperbole to make a point. Clearly it missed the mark.

5 years ago, I was making less than $50k/yr and had $1,169/mo student loan payments. THAT was servitude level debt. I was driving uber at nights to keep cashflow up so that I didn't miss the mortgage. I've had some good fortune, moved jobs, and refinanced my loans to a 20year term at $187/mo since then. I'm not in servitude now, but it's arguable I was then. I'm extremely lucky to be in this position, not everyone is this way, and I'm acknowledging my good fortune and looking to spread some of the love around.

Cap the forgiveness at ~$75k or so. I'll pay mine. Many can't and never will, they're the ones that need the help, and I'm OK helping them.

Sounds like you did/doing that while married or married with kids?

 

[BlkGS]

For clarity, I’m not advocating for subsidizing lower paying careers. I’m advocating the model changes to fit the career path. Why is 4 years the right amount of time for every degree? The first two years are mostly just extensions of high school. I was pissed when I got my classes for freshman year and there wasn’t one single class first semester that was going to teach me anything about what I was paying to learn at the time. It’s bloat to justify 4 years of charges when 4 years aren’t needed. Colleges are now charging insane amounts for an “experience” and aren’t given students any other choice. That’s not right.

Agreed overall. But to answer your question, it's 4 years because it can be. Frankly, I think all the non essential courses for a degree should be eliminated. If I'm getting a degree in engineering why do I need a humanities course? You could cut the first 2 years of profit courses for universities out no problem.

 

[Taylorman]

Agreed overall. But to answer your question, it's 4 years because it can be. Frankly, I think all the non essential courses for a degree should be eliminated. If I'm getting a degree in engineering why do I need a humanities course? You could cut the first 2 years of profit courses for universities out no problem.

At the very least make those years optional. Not all kids are ready to work at those ages. If they want to hang out at college, and can afford to do so without taking a loan, then let them. Everyone that has to take a loan should be limited to only what’s necessary. Either path should result in the same degree though. Nobody should be penalized based on whether they have to take a loan or not.

 

[djetok]

College Majors with the Highest Unemployment Rates (savingforcollege.com) These numbers are prior to the great resignation of 2020-2021 aka the big quit.

 

[2kwik4u]

Sounds like you did/doing that while married or married with kids?

Yeap.

Went to UofL in '98 (at 17yrs old) with a full ride. That stuck for about 5 semesters and I quit. Delivering pizzas with my buddies and getting $13/hr at a drafting job was plenty for me. Naivety at it's best right there. Married in late '09. Went back in '11 (at 30yrs old). Quit my job, had a kid and started a second round of college within 6 weeks. Took loans to fund both the household expenses and the schooling (tuition, books, fees, etc). Worked pizza delivery 45hrs a week nights/weekends to make ends meet. Caught a break and got a decently paying job that was a click above an internship in '12 and they let me "flex time" to get school done. upon graduation I was looking at $55k-ish in loans (some used to pay the mortgage and buy food) and a yearly income of ~$55k/yr. Was there until '17 when I left for small startup and made $250k/yr salary for about 6mo, realized the place was a shitshow, and left in early '18 for my current position which was $62k salary and ~$10k bonus. Second kid showed up 2 weeks after I left the startup. Tried to leave there in '20, and took a counter offer that put me at $82k base, and ~$25k bonus (performance based). Part of that counter involved getting my MBA, so I'm in school now. Company is dropping ~$9k/semester ($27k/yr) on my masters. I have around $38k remaining on my school loans last I checked. I haven't had to make a payment since Feb of '20. COVID hold, and now I'm back in school so they're on hold again. Averaging about $150/yr in interest by not paying. I'm OK with that.

That drop back from the startup to the current position is where I learned about lifestyle inflation, the fact that student loans can be refinanced, and how "On Track Earnings" are NOT the same as salary. Lots of bad decisions in there if you really think about it. Had zero guidance from anyone else once I enrolled in school back in '98. The rest has been on me. The only really advice I got on any of my decisions between quitting in '01 or so was from grandad and it was "Man you really fucked up not staying in school, when are you going back?"

I don't consider UofL Speed Scientific Engineering (first round), or Purdue Polytechnic (second round: Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering Technology) to be "elite" or "party" or "big name" schools. Purdue maybe based on the name alone, but the experience was much different. The Purdue campus I attended is a single building in partnership with IU Southeast Campus for core classes. I graduated with 15 or so others out of a student body of about 200 or so. It's a local tech school that offers high value degrees. As an adult going back, knowing I was going to foot the bill, I wanted to make sure I was getting that value. Likewise I went through with 155 credit hours in 4 years time and a 3.98 GPA. I WANTED to be there that time, and it showed. Likewise, the workload was seemingly small compared to some companies I had been at.

I've learned a lot of these life lessons in a "trial by fire" type situation. I'm working hard to make sure my boys don't do this stupid shit, and I'm working hard to spread some of my good fortune around instead of inflating my lifestyle again. We'll see if I make it or not.

I won't be paying any more than I have to on my loans until this relief gets settled/sorted. Much like tax laws, funding programs, or anything else, and regardless of where anyone stands on it. If the benefit exists, I'm going to try and get it. While others might think I'm slapping them in the face for making the decision to take a handout, I'm just going to rely on the same premise of "You made your choices, you have to live with them. Sorry it didn't work as well in your favor as mine". With that said, i fully expect any legislature at this level to get blocked/cancelled/filibustered or otherwise squashed. Even just taking a popular poll in this thread, I think those of us making noise about getting student debt cancelled are likely in the minority. Hell, almost all the sitting republicans voted AGAINST the baby formula aid. That was for frickin BABIES! No way there gonna give some liberal minded yaywho's like us the time of day to get student loans for higher education forgiven. I'll end up paying these off in time.

 

[2kwik4u]

Agreed overall. But to answer your question, it's 4 years because it can be. Frankly, I think all the non essential courses for a degree should be eliminated. If I'm getting a degree in engineering why do I need a humanities course? You could cut the first 2 years of profit courses for universities out no problem.

I got an engineering degree with this premise. All those "humanities" courses were substituted with things like "The legal environment of business" and "Monetary analysis" and things of that nature. I took a psychology class, and I think a creative writing class (couldn't tell could you ) that weren't in my "major" field of study.

I 100% agree with the premise of cutting the fluff and making the training and education to be more "on point".

 

[djetok]

Yeap.

Went to UofL in '98 (at 17yrs old) with a full ride. That stuck for about 5 semesters and I quit. Delivering pizzas with my buddies and getting $13/hr at a drafting job was plenty for me. Naivety at it's best right there. Married in late '09. Went back in '11 (at 30yrs old). Quit my job, had a kid and started a second round of college within 6 weeks. Took loans to fund both the household expenses and the schooling (tuition, books, fees, etc). Worked pizza delivery 45hrs a week nights/weekends to make ends meet. Caught a break and got a decently paying job that was a click above an internship in '12 and they let me "flex time" to get school done. upon graduation I was looking at $55k-ish in loans (some used to pay the mortgage and buy food) and a yearly income of ~$55k/yr. Was there until '17 when I left for small startup and made $250k/yr salary for about 6mo, realized the place was a shitshow, and left in early '18 for my current position which was $62k salary and ~$10k bonus. Second kid showed up 2 weeks after I left the startup. Tried to leave there in '20, and took a counter offer that put me at $82k base, and ~$25k bonus (performance based). Part of that counter involved getting my MBA, so I'm in school now. Company is dropping ~$9k/semester ($27k/yr) on my masters. I have around $38k remaining on my school loans last I checked. I haven't had to make a payment since Feb of '20. COVID hold, and now I'm back in school so they're on hold again. Averaging about $150/yr in interest by not paying. I'm OK with that.

That drop back from the startup to the current position is where I learned about lifestyle inflation, the fact that student loans can be refinanced, and how "On Track Earnings" are NOT the same as salary. Lots of bad decisions in there if you really think about it. Had zero guidance from anyone else once I enrolled in school back in '98. The rest has been on me. The only really advice I got on any of my decisions between quitting in '01 or so was from grandad and it was "Man you really fucked up not staying in school, when are you going back?"

I don't consider UofL Speed Scientific Engineering (first round), or Purdue Polytechnic (second round: Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering Technology) to be "elite" or "party" or "big name" schools. Purdue maybe based on the name alone, but the experience was much different. The Purdue campus I attended is a single building in partnership with IU Southeast Campus for core classes. I graduated with 15 or so others out of a student body of about 200 or so. It's a local tech school that offers high value degrees. As an adult going back, knowing I was going to foot the bill, I wanted to make sure I was getting that value. Likewise I went through with 155 credit hours in 4 years time and a 3.98 GPA. I WANTED to be there that time, and it showed. Likewise, the workload was seemingly small compared to some companies I had been at.

I've learned a lot of these life lessons in a "trial by fire" type situation. I'm working hard to make sure my boys don't do this stupid shit, and I'm working hard to spread some of my good fortune around instead of inflating my lifestyle again. We'll see if I make it or not.

I won't be paying any more than I have to on my loans until this relief gets settled/sorted. Much like tax laws, funding programs, or anything else, and regardless of where anyone stands on it. If the benefit exists, I'm going to try and get it. While others might think I'm slapping them in the face for making the decision to take a handout, I'm just going to rely on the same premise of "You made your choices, you have to live with them. Sorry it didn't work as well in your favor as mine". With that said, i fully expect any legislature at this level to get blocked/cancelled/filibustered or otherwise squashed. Even just taking a popular poll in this thread, I think those of us making noise about getting student debt cancelled are likely in the minority. Hell, almost all the sitting republicans voted AGAINST the baby formula aid. That was for frickin BABIES! No way there gonna give some liberal minded yaywho's like us the time of day to get student loans for higher education forgiven. I'll end up paying these off in time.

Yep, my best lessons were from the school of hard knocks. You have to remember that a lot of the people that are calling for forgiveness, are also the same people that are living off their parents as well.

 

[2kwik4u]

I'd cap forgiveness at 80% of median household or personal income, whichever is lower (ie, you make 100k a year but wife doesn't work, you get capped based on your individual income, not household because you choose to have a non working spouse).

I'm onboard with that level of restriction.

I'm borked either way. Wife is a AVP now, and I'm doing well in a leadership role. We're gonna pay.