The Vaccine

[Dean P]

Getting the Flu vaccine/shot will not prevent you from getting the Flu. Right? Getting the COVID vaccine will NOT make you immune from getting COVID. Nor can you fly by jumping off a tall building and not die when you hit the pavement below.

 

[Bluewater272]

You must really think that critical thinking is the way of the hillbilly...

Given the level of discourse around here? Absolutely. Maybe if Duck Dynasty gets one on TV some folks around here will...

 

[swatski]

My friend just told me he is having some pretty bad side effects from his 2nd Pfizer shot.
Had bad fever & flu symptoms for 2 days & now very swollen lymph nodes for 3 days.
Extremely fit guy early 40s.

One of my co-workers had a pretty terrible reaction to the second dose, w/high fever and chills for about two days.
It happens.
I work in a two person practice currently, so my partner and I scheduled our vaccination apptments a few days apart in anticipation of possible side effects (to me those are really just the evidence of the vaccine doing what it is designed to do, but that's besides). It ended up being a day off for both of us, with some general crankiness.
The bottom line is, if everyone can do their part, it is by far the best way out of the whole pandemic predicament.

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[swatski]

I’m in the not getting camp as well. Whole fam already had it, minor for all of us. Wife in the medical field (surgical nurse). We do not see the benefit as there are safe scientific proven treatments that will do the same or better than an unknown experimental vaccine (biological operating system). Not an anti-Vaxer by the way.
Her doctor and many others are advising against now that more and more data is out.

Recommend doing your research. Check out Rumble as it is not a censored platform or front line doctors

I would like to know what it is!
I suppose you are referring to treatments? Antibody cocktails, antivirals, convalescent serum? IDK.

How can that be considered better than prevention with the vaccine? The current vaccines used in the US, all of them, are proven extremely effective and extremely safe, as far as vaccines go.

EDIT: COVID can be cleared from one's body by the innate components of the immune system (non-antibody based, or involving "natural" IgM low affinity antibodies) - without generating long-term immunity and high affinity antibodies. The vaccines are specifically designed to produce high-affinity (long lasting) antibody responses.

Not every virus-binding antibody is beneficial for the host (protective). Virus elicits antibody response that can involve production of specific antibodies that protect the virus from destruction by the immune system. The vaccine greatly minimizes production of such antibodies (protecting the virus).

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[anmut]

Given the level of discourse around here? Absolutely. Maybe if Duck Dynasty gets one on TV some folks around here will...

LOL wow, well true colors eventually show. Best of luck to you.

 

[Farny]

I would like to know what it is!
I suppose you are referring to treatments? Antibody cocktails, antivirals, convalescent serum? IDK.

How can that be considered better than prevention with the vaccine? The current vaccines used in the US, all of them, are proven extremely effective and extremely safe, as far as vaccines go.

EDIT: COVID can be cleared from one's body by the innate components of the immune system (non-antibody based, or involving "natural" IgM low affinity antibodies) - without generating long-term immunity and high affinity antibodies. The vaccines are specifically designed to produce high-affinity (long lasting) antibody responses.

Not every virus-binding antibody is beneficial for the host (protective). Virus elicits antibody response that can involve production of specific antibodies that protect the virus from destruction by the immune system. The vaccine greatly minimizes production of such antibodies (protecting the virus).

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m
My son and I both did vitamins D3 Zinc and ivermectin. Early treatment. To be blunt - I had swine flu a year before and that was much more severe than our cases of covid. Now my heart goes out to those who had severe cases don’t get me wrong- I just wonder how many would have had lesser symptoms had they been treated early with the cocktail.

my rational for a no - 1 we have antibodies 2 vaccine does not prevent infection and does not prevent transmission ( but does supposedly surpress the effects of covid 19!disease) 3 we are all low risk 4 doctor recommended not take vaccine 5 it’s still experimental 6 concerning that the WHO and Fauchiactually have patents in the vaccines and processes 7 the belief that we all have a right to choice of medical treatment

that being said - if someone wants to vaccinate I would never criticize- that’s their choice

 

[Farny]

Oh and I forgot to mention- my mother ended up in the emergency room after her second Pfizer shot. Nerve issues in leg , dizziness and nausea. She is ok now but was touch and go . She’s 73 and totally trusting of what she hears on the news

 

[Farny]

what are these proven scientific methods that are better or the same than the vaccine? (honest question)

Vitamin D. Ivermectin

 

[Farny]

I got Pfizer first shot and was fine other than real sore at the injection site for several days with bruising. She injected it very slowly as that is how she said they were instructed. Arm was much more sore than your typical flu shot. I got back for my 2nd shot on the 10th. My work is giving away $25k to 10 people in a raffle so it made choosing a little easier lol.

My grandmother in her 90’s and my parents who both have bad health factors have had their one shot of Moderna with no side efffcs. They go back for their second shot tomorrow. I’ve known people who have died from Covid so that’s another reason why I got it as I’m also not in best of health. It affects people differently so I didn’t want to roll the dice with it vs roll the dice with the vaccine. I waffled back and forth for the longest time if I wanted it or not. I guess I just said YOLO and did it eventually. Haven't noticed I glow at night or anything yet lol.

Glad you had a good experience. That’s the beauty of America- you have a choice and it’s your own!

 

[swatski]

To be blunt

Okay, thanks for being blunt. Let me be blunt, too. Does this sound about right:
I won't take an experimental vaccine with a safety record that's simply stellar as far as any medication goes (rigorously studied, peer reviewed, and tested to have excellent safety - the most recent J&J showing just how thorough and seriously the testing process and safeguards are actually taken) - BUT - I will self-medicate with a cocktail of untested drugs, the main one designed to treat parasitic worms, not virus, in the setting of specific skin conditions caused by external parasitic infections...

?‍

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[Farny]

Okay, thanks for being blunt. Let me be blunt, too. Does this sound about right:
I won't take an experimental vaccine with a safety record that's simply stellar as far as any medication goes (rigorously studied, peer reviewed, and tested to have excellent safety - the most recent J&J showing just how thorough and serious the testing process actually is) - BUT - I will self-medicate with a cocktail of untested drugs, the main one designed to treat parasitic worms, not virus, in the settings of skin conditions due to external parasitic infections...

?‍

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Do a bit more checking on ivermectin it does have antiviral properties and has been peer reviewed. My wife’s doctor was a part of that.

 

[swatski]

Do a bit more checking on ivermectin it does have antiviral properties and has been peer reviewed.

Please enlighten us.

I'm a knuckle-dragging molecular pathologist, not an infectious disease expert, I love to learn.

The statements you make about the vaccine effects appear biased, to say the least. There is simply nothing that we know of that works better to stop the transmission, short of things like (maybe) antibody cocktails made by Regeneron, Vir, others, totally experimental and absolutely not applicable in the setting of pandemic scale response.

I can tell you that what you say about the antibodies, and antibody response, is flawed; just "having antibodies" reacting or cross-reacting with the virus components means nothing, it certainly does not imply immunity.

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[Farny]

Strange, heard just today it was just as effective after 6 months; that it had not broken down in the human body.

Wow you hit the nail on the head - there is no common position on the vaccines - WHO, Fauci and others continue to contradict each other - for now I’m trusting god and my own natural amazing immune system

Please enlighten us.

I'm a knuckle-dragging molecular pathologist, not an infectious disease expert, I love to learn.

The statements you make about the vaccine effects appear biased, to say the least. There is simply nothing that we know of that works better to stop the transmission, short of things like (maybe) antibody cocktails made by Regeneron, Vir, others, totally experimental and absolutely not applicable in the setting of pandemic scale response.

I can tell you that what you say about the antibodies, and antibody response, is flawed; just "having antibodies" reacting or cross-reacting with the virus components means nothing, it certainly does not imply immunity.

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so your saying our natural built antibodies don’t do anything?? Not a pathologist here , but have spoken to doctors who are in the trawls of treating this , and relaying info they have given me. Not sure what’s biased about my comments other than the data I’ve researched and been given from doctors. Only bias I have is believing we all have free will and a choice- if your choice is to take a jab - more power to you and I respect that. For me and my kid - were trusting god and nature on this one until there is definitive proof otherwise.

 

[swatski]

Wow you hit the nail on the head - there is no common position on the vaccines - WHO, Fauci and others continue to contradict each other - for now I’m trusting god and my own natural amazing immune system

so your saying our natural built antibodies don’t do anything?? Not a pathologist here , but have spoken to doctors who are in the trawls of treating this , and relaying info they have given me. Not sure what’s biased about my comments other than the data I’ve researched and been given from doctors. Only bias I have is believing we all have free will and a choice- if your choice is to take a jab - more power to you and I respect that. For me and my kid - were trusting god and nature on this one until there is definitive proof otherwise.

Ivermectin is not a standard of care covid treatment, or prevention. Based on the available medical data at this time, just like hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, it has not been shown effective for treating or preventing COVID-19, yet. It is hard to imagine it would ever be used or approved for covid prevention but anything is possible.
I would hope that anyone interested in ivermectin would choose to participate in a controlled clinical trial that would benefit all.

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

We certainly have free will, but that has nothing to do with how clinical studies are designed and/or run.
Fauci is not a God Almighty but he is an excellent scientist and, just like the guys who fly rocketships to Mars and then launch a helicopter, he uses hypothesis driven research to draw mechanistic conclusions - to inform his decision making process. It's not different than engineering - for example designing, building, testing engines. It's not foolproof, either.

A hypothesis is just an educated guess, but - it needs to be testable, have a "null hypothesis". Hypothesis-driven medical studies are a very powerful, and currently the best way to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Natural antibodies, aka IgM, are generally low-affinity, high avidity, pentameric protein machines that can clear certain infections but are not great at clearing viral infections and do not provide long term immunity or immunological memory/recall responses; for various reasons clearing viral infections requires cooperation between B and T cells to make, among other things, high affinity abs (hypermutated and class-switched) that provide long lasting anti-viral effector responses / immunity. I'm scandalously oversimplifying things, but the bottom line is this: no, one's natural immunity is not great against covid, and yes - the vaccination improves one's immunity GREATLY.

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[Farny]

Ivermectin is not a standard of care covid treatment, or prevention. Based on the available medical data at this time, just like hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, it has not been shown effective for treating or preventing COVID-19, yet. It is hard to imagine it would ever be used or approved for covid prevention but anything is possible.
I would hope that anyone interested in ivermectin would choose to participate in a controlled clinical trial that would benefit all.

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

We certainly have free will, but that has nothing to do with how clinical studies are designed and/or run.
Fauci is not a God Almighty but he is an excellent scientist and, just like the guys who fly rocketships to Mars and then launch a helicopter, he uses hypothesis driven research to draw mechanistic conclusions - to inform his decision making process. It's not different than engineering - for example designing, building, testing engines. It's not foolproof, either.

A hypothesis is just an educated guess, but - it needs to be testable, have a "null hypothesis". Hypothesis-driven medical studies are a very powerful, and currently the best way to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Natural antibodies, aka IgM, are generally low-affinity, high avidity, pentameric protein machines that can clear certain infections but are not great at clearing viral infections and do not provide long term immunity or immunological memory/recall responses; for various reasons clearing viral infections requires cooperation between B and T cells to make, among other things, high affinity abs (hypermutated and class-switched) that provide long lasting anti-viral effector responses / immunity. I'm scandalously oversimplifying things, but the bottom line is this: no, one's natural immunity is not great against covid, and yes - the vaccination improves one's immunity GREATLY.

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To which strain? And which strain was isolated to develop the vaccine? Just asking need to learn obviously

 

[Farny]

To which strain? And which strain was isolated to develop the vaccine? Just asking need to learn obviously

Not to downplay any deaths at all - as any are tragic, what’s the current survival rate at for under 70?

 

[Farny]

I had covid back in December and had almost no symptoms so I am not getting it. More worried about what the vaccine is going to cause down the road then I am about getting covid again.

Ditto

 

[swatski]

To which strain? And which strain was isolated to develop the vaccine? Just asking need to learn obviously

My semi educated (uneducated) guess would be - the main (and obvious) target would be to neutralize the spike protein, largely conserved between various strains, the key component of the viral assembly apparatus, but this is an incredibly tricky question - and the devil is in the details.
Let's keep in mind that unlike the German (Pfizer)/American (Moderna, J&J) efforts, the Russian and the Chinese vaccines so far have largely not been proven very effective.

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[swatski]

Not to downplay any deaths at all - as any are tragic, what’s the current survival rate at for under 70?

It is not unlike what it was with polio (poliomyelitis) disease (before the polio vaccine), come to think of it...
Mortality and morbidity from covid appears much higher overall.

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[ripler]

Honest question because I have no clue about the process. The vaccines were given an emergency authorization based off of trials that included under 50,000 people in each trial. Now there are millions of people now vaccinated, how come these drugs are approved by the FDA yet?