The Vaccine

[AZMark]

My echo chamber is pretty damn large and diverse but you're right. Not much I can do when it's almost everybody I ever met.

Do you think he would have faired better with the flu vs covid?

Your entitled to your opinion but understanding COVID only deaths vs. underlying makes a big difference in the conversation.

The fact is that the “underlying conditions” are rampant in America, so that is part of the discussion.

If you want to scrub the sample size down to people under 60, who are very healthy, then sure COVID is maybe as fatal as a bad flu (I have no idea, not a dr) but your sample doesn’t represent the actual population.

Yes, I do think her uncle would have fared better with flu. He’s had flu and had never been killed by it.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

My final thought is this......I hate to hear that you "believe", as if some of this is open for interpretation. There is overwhelming evidence, both empirical and anecdotal of the severity of the situation. I'm honestly curious as to why any of this is a belief and not a simple logical deduction. If you're waiting for a years long study of the side effects, death rates, improper reporting, or any of the other "contested" issues, then you'll be waiting until your dead from it. There are times in life that action needs to be taken without full information do to the nature of threat. This is one of those times, and the level of risk you're taking by not vaccinating is far far greater than the level of risk you take by getting it, regardless of your beliefs, that's how it works.

I am sorry you had to go through that and sorry for your losses.

We are both on each end of the spectrum. What I quoted above, I have essentially been told by flat-earthers, moon landing theorists, and other crazy ideas. You choose to believe the evidence is valid, I do not, and probably nearly half the country falls on either side of that line.

"This is one of those times, and the level of risk you're taking by not vaccinating is far far greater than the level of risk you take by getting it, regardless of your beliefs, that's how it works." - Neither of us know this to be 100% true either way. We just hit one year of this virus. At BEST 9 months of vaccine testing. Humanity has proven over and over again that it's short term "facts" are proven wrong. The CDC has made it clear they really have no idea. "Don't wear a mask - wear a mask - don't - wear two, or even three!" Quarantine for just 14 days! (Worked real well for NY vs the wild wild west over here in FL). It seems every week they are back tracking something they had said previously. It is easy to see why some of us do not trust everything we are told/shown.

 

[Julian]

Your entitled to your opinion but understanding COVID only deaths vs. underlying makes a big difference in the conversation.

No one dies from Covid only. Just like no one dies from Alzheimer's only.

 

[tabbibus]

Just curious, how many people that died would you consider to be a healthy individual? For the record I am overweight with asthma and it was pretty much a walk in the park for me. Had 2 hours of feeling like real crap.

I don't have a concrete number. Maybe 10-20 out of the many who have died were under 50 and no other medical conditions

 

[Julian]

I don't have a concrete number. Maybe 10-20 out of the many who have died were under 50 and no other medical conditions

In your care, or are you saying in the US overall? If your care.....out of how many?

 

[tabbibus]

In your care, or are you saying in the US overall? If your care.....out of how many?

oh. my care. I'm just a small sample. I have no idea how many I've seen. I do 1 week of ICU a month, and 1 week of regular pulmonary floors. The ones that died that young were in the ICU. ICU has 24 beds, at peak we were at 25 or 26 covid ICU patients (had to open ancillary ICU). In the floor I saw between 10-20 covid patients during peak. But keep in mind that I'm just one of 2 intensivist, and just one of about 8 other docs who see covid patient's in the floor.

All this to say that I find it hard to tell you the denominator in this equation. My point would be that it happens. Younger people die of this shit. Healthy people die of this.

 

[I_squared_r]

I take serious issue with healthcare providers who downplay this virus and the vaccine. I have lived through this pandemic treating all sorts of people with this virus. Many have died. Many will never be the same again. I know some colleagues who have this downplaying position. None of them base their judgment on solid grounds. At least it has shown me who to trust as a colleague and who not to.

My coworker is anti-vax and he sent me a sample doctor who downplays the entire pandemic. Bill gates conspiracy kind of stuff. There's crazies in every field. I worked with an engineer that believed the earth was flat. A few of us laughed until we found that he was serious. We were in disbelief that a college educated engineer could believe bullshit until we met another engineer who believed the same thing. Education doesn't mean anything.

 

[swatski]

I have had COVID already

Trying to get out of this thread, not easy...

Serious question: How do you know "you have had COVID already"?

Did you have a test done? did the test result inform you? or did you just arbitrarily decide "I have had COVID already"?
If it was a test result, did you believe it? - why?

Your echo chamber is not very large, by the way, it's just loud.

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[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

Trying to get out of this thread, not easy...

Serious question: How do you know "you have had COVID already"?

Did you have a test done? did the test result inform you? or did you just arbitrarily decide "I have had COVID already"?
If it was a test result, did you believe it? - why?

Your echo chamber is not very large, by the way, it's just loud.

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Multiple friends I was with tested positive, my wife had a fever and started feeling off. We went and got tested. Along with everyone but two people in that group tested positive. Funny enough the two people tested multiples time but were always negative. They lived with people that were positive and they joined us for COVIDgiving. (We all cancelled Thanksgiving with our families, so did it together). Those two people are also the biggest drinkers of the group - so maybe they are just immune, or alcohol kills the virus. Anyways to answer your question, yes the test results informed me, as well as about 10 more of us. I believed it because there was a large group of us that tested positive, a few people did lose taste, so everything kinda fell in line with what we knew. Re-affirming I have had it, is that I continually test positive for anti-bodies. (I donate blood on a regular basis).

I guess it depends what you consider large. Between my democratic family, my local friends on both political ends, friends all along up the east coast (including New York, in and out of the city) and out to the west coast, as well as people I have met while at the store, out boating, work, the bar, or wherever, that echo chamber equates to at least few hundred people. Pretty much all of them fall in line with my same thinking (for the record, I am almost never the one to bring it up, so there is no bias for them to agree with me). Of the people I do know personally and not just passing by, none are "loud". Assuming loud is defined something along the lines of a twitter SJW.

Also for the record, my very democratic (hate to go political but it helps understand the mind set) grandmother reached out to me about getting the vaccine. She has the same concerns as the general public, but I still recommended she receive it, because she is very high risk. Luckily she didn't have any issues (or she didn't tell us, which wouldn't be surprising lol)

 

[anmut]

If the virus did not mutate and your decision only affected you individually I would be totally supportive of your choice to not vaccinate.

The reality is that as the virus continues to reproduce and mutate, the more you vaccinate the better the chances for me to not get sick with a virus that has mutated and is no longer attacked by the immunity the vaccine gave me.

Also, medical resources are limited, currently still in the TX medical center ICU occupancy is above capacity. As folks "choose" to not vaccinate, then need the ICU after COVID, they create contention for others that may have an issue that was not preventable.

I'd equate it to Open Defecation. We know better now. At some point in the near future you will be expected to vaccinate, just like you are expected to mostly use sewer/septic tank now, or vaccinate against yellow fever, etc when traveling to affected areas.

Your decision does not affect only yourself. It's because of the negative impact to others that I have an interest in seeing you feel comfortable and confident to vaccinate. 48,000 dead in Texas so far.

I share this as my humble opinion in the spirit of open discussion.

EDIT: I see I got a dislike for this message. It is your right!, but please also provide your honest feedback on why you dislike/disagree. My goal is to fully understand your thought process and learn from you.

So I suppose maybe if you want everyone to get the jab, and you're afraid of those that don't, maybe some sort of ID of those that don't would work, so you could stay away from them and rightly ostracize them? Possibly some sort of arm band, maybe?

Here's the issue in your example: You think that everyone needs to "use a sewer/septic tank." But what you don't realize, is that there are many people, either by choice or economic reasons, still use an outhouse. Some use composting toilets. Some use rivers.

Liberty is not you imposing your beliefs onto others.

 

[anmut]

Thanks for fighting the tyranny for the rest of us while we humbly take the gov handout, the vaccine, Covid Rambo.


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It's funny how when logic gets in the way of peoples beliefs and they turn to insults as a response. Wait, not funny, sad.

 

[anmut]

It's tough, I am saddened we cannot have a cordial exchange of opposing ideas. If it doesn't happen here, it can't happen anywhere. We are out of spaces where opposing and controversial ideas can be discussed without it turning into a dumpster fire. I fear this is affecting the country as a whole and supports the creation of eco chambers where folks only hear their own opinion. True progress requires listening to opposing points of view and being willing to change your mind if the data changes.

Very much agree. And again history shows this only going in one direction, off the cliff of civil war. Neither side is willing to pump the brakes because we're all too pig headed and afraid to be wrong, especially online.

Back to boating, the only truth out there!

 

[Beachbummer]

So I suppose maybe if you want everyone to get the jab, and you're afraid of those that don't, maybe some sort of ID of those that don't would work, so you could stay away from them and rightly ostracize them? Possibly some sort of arm band, maybe?

Here's the issue in your example: You think that everyone needs to "use a sewer/septic tank." But what you don't realize, is that there are many people, either by choice or economic reasons, still use an outhouse. Some use composting toilets. Some use rivers.

Liberty is not you imposing your beliefs onto others.

First of all, Thank you for your reply!

I appreciate I am not king for a day, so my desires and what actually happens are two different things. Currently you are required to do many things by "the government" or "society" to participate in many activities. (say vaccinate to attend public school, work in a hospital, travel, etc)

My analogy to open defecation relates to how your action affects others by spreading disease with your choice to do so in liberty next to a river upstream of some poor saps. You are free to do it where it is not illegal, but it also infringes on their liberty to access clean water. (Outhouse/Compositing toiler great, river where others drink from, not great)

By skipping vaccination you are defecating up river. It is your right, but is it the nice thing to do to you neighbors downstream?

Many cannot get vaccinated due to health conditions. You vaccinating protects them.

We can't even agree that it's a good thing for people to prove they were vaccinated (vaccine passport evil), I think we are VERY far from a mandated vaccine, but if it was up to me, with the risk/reward, If I was king for a day, I would mandate it. You don't have to worry about it. it won't happen.

what I would like is to understand WHAT it would take for you to consider it a good idea to get vaccinated? we could then works towards that. It's already happening in Mississippi. More vaccines that willing takers.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

Back to boating, the only truth out there!

And also that your anchor locker will leak from the factory.

 

[Julian]

This is an interesting article:

Here are a couple of my favorite parts when discussing how to convince people to get vaccinated:

One word of caution: be ready if the conversation gets emotional. Issues about vaccines often center more on anxieties than facts, said Heidi Larson, an anthropologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and global vaccine expert. “This can be a messy, emotional, difficult space.”​

​

“Facts by themselves rarely do anything, and sometimes they aggravate the situation because people feel like you are not listening to their concerns,” Larson said. As she wrote in “Stuck,” her recent book about vaccine rumors, “Science alone is not going to change the mind of those with strong beliefs.”​

​

To me its a shame that science isn't enough....but I'm an analytical healthcare IT leader who lives on science. And I got the infamous J&J vaccine - just because that was what they had. I'd take any of them.

 

[swatski]

Multiple friends I was with tested positive, my wife had a fever and started feeling off. We went and got tested. Along with everyone but two people in that group tested positive. Funny enough the two people tested multiples time but were always negative. They lived with people that were positive and they joined us for COVIDgiving. (We all cancelled Thanksgiving with our families, so did it together). Those two people are also the biggest drinkers of the group - so maybe they are just immune, or alcohol kills the virus. Anyways to answer your question, yes the test results informed me, as well as about 10 more of us. I believed it because there was a large group of us that tested positive, a few people did lose taste, so everything kinda fell in line with what we knew. Re-affirming I have had it, is that I continually test positive for anti-bodies. (I donate blood on a regular basis).

I guess it depends what you consider large. Between my democratic family, my local friends on both political ends, friends all along up the east coast (including New York, in and out of the city) and out to the west coast, as well as people I have met while at the store, out boating, work, the bar, or wherever, that echo chamber equates to at least few hundred people. Pretty much all of them fall in line with my same thinking (for the record, I am almost never the one to bring it up, so there is no bias for them to agree with me). Of the people I do know personally and not just passing by, none are "loud". Assuming loud is defined something along the lines of a twitter SJW.

Also for the record, my very democratic (hate to go political but it helps understand the mind set) grandmother reached out to me about getting the vaccine. She has the same concerns as the general public, but I still recommended she receive it, because she is very high risk. Luckily she didn't have any issues (or she didn't tell us, which wouldn't be surprising lol)

This is getting childish - you can't have it both ways:
"I believe the test results when it's my own covidgiving cohort, but not when those same results are analyzed by an epidemiologist"?

And, as an aside, for the nth' time, having a positive antibody test result means very, very little with regards to the vaccination scheme and it's efficacy; it may indicate exposure (in the right settings) but does NOT imply one is immune, or immunized, or no longer a candidate for the vaccine.

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[anmut]

And also that your anchor locker will leak from the factory.

LOL that and you'll suck up a rope!

 

[anmut]

First of all, Thank you for your reply!

I appreciate I am not king for a day, so my desires and what actually happens are two different things. Currently you are required to do many things by "the government" or "society" to participate in many activities. (say vaccinate to attend public school, work in a hospital, travel, etc)

My analogy to open defecation relates to how your action affects others by spreading disease with your choice to do so in liberty next to a river upstream of some poor saps. You are free to do it where it is not illegal, but it also infringes on their liberty to access clean water. (Outhouse/Compositing toiler great, river where others drink from, not great)

By skipping vaccination you are defecating up river. It is your right, but is it the nice thing to do to you neighbors downstream?

Many cannot get vaccinated due to health conditions. You vaccinating protects them.

We can't even agree that it's a good thing for people to prove they were vaccinated (vaccine passport evil), I think we are VERY far from a mandated vaccine, but if it was up to me, with the risk/reward, If I was king for a day, I would mandate it. You don't have to worry about it. it won't happen.

what I would like is to understand WHAT it would take for you to consider it a good idea to get vaccinated? we could then works towards that. It's already happening in Mississippi. More vaccines that willing takers.

Your points are... semi valid, but that's just my opinion. Again, there's been lies and damn lies over the last year of this pandemic. You can't expect that people will just believe your word that "we're defecating up river" because we won't take the vaccine. Just as I couldn't convince you that "this is how every zombie film always starts..." right?

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

This is getting childish - you can't have it both ways:
"I believe the test results when it's my own covidgiving cohort, but not when those same results are analyzed by an epidemiologist"?

And, as an aside, for the nth' time, having a positive antibody test result means very, very little with regards to the vaccination scheme and it's efficacy; it may indicate exposure (in the right settings) but does NOT imply one is immune, or immunized, or no longer a candidate for the vaccine.

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Really....

You take things out of context, put in an assumption, then call me childish.

It almost like talking to a flat earther here. The evidence says this so this what it is, 100% no matter what it is that way! Its never wrong and that will never change. You guys are so closed minded, you can’t seem to accept there is even a slight chance what we “know” is wrong. We are at the epitome of humanity and science is always right. (Sarcasm) That mindset really worked well for yellow fever, right? They knew the cause, then the real cause, or wait now we know what it is!

 

[anmut]

Really....

You take things out of context, put in an assumption, then call me childish.

It almost like talking to a flat earther here. The evidence says this so this what it is, 100% no matter what it is that way! Its never wrong and that will never change. You guys are so closed minded, you can’t seem to accept there is even a slight chance what we “know” is wrong. We are at the epitome of humanity and science is always right. (Sarcasm) That mindset really worked well for yellow fever, right? They knew the cause, then the real cause, or wait now we know what it is!

High five! Exactly my point. Today we "know" the vax is X safe for Y people. But step back 12 months and Fauci KNEW masks weren't important, governors KNEW lockdowns were for 15 days to flatten the curve, and we KNEW that covid was on ever surface ever touched by everyone.

I mean, the last time we had a pandemic, we also had Woodstock, zero masks, zero enforcing of social distancing, zero school closures, zero panic, ZERO VACCINE SHAMING. But that was only cool because the boomers wanted to party. Now they're literally scared of dying, and we all must bend to their fear. Well let me be one of many voice to say F*CK THAT.