The Vaccine

[Chip F.]

We’re waiting until the 5 min commercials come out telling the long term effects.
politics vs . Medicine = politics always win !

 

[Epsmith19]

Just for conversation, I want to remind people of RECENT activities based on "science as we know it" as it relates to Covid:

1) Don't worry about Covid-19, it would be racist to shut down travel from Asia. (Politicians in Q1, 2020)

2) Lockdowns are just for 15 days to flatten the curve (Q2, 2020)

3) Vaccines will take years to develop safely (Q3, 2020)

4) You don't need to wear masks (Q1, 2020)

5) New York City will need two hospital ships and the Javits Center for all the sick people (Q2/3, 2020)

6) Covid can spread on surfaces and everything must be wiped between usages (2020/Q1, 2021)

7) Covid can spread via aerosol in schools from 6' away. (2020/Q1, 2021)

8) Need to mention all of the politicians and scientists that came out and said "Do X to protect others" and then got caught doing the exact opposite.

These are just what I can think of off the top of my head, there are so many more scientific guesses from this pandemic. So you can understand why there's a population of this country that says "fool me once, shame on you, fool me seven times, shame on me."

I agree COVID has been overly politized and public health "experts" have been proven wrong, the points your making above were based off of historical assumptions of how viruses of this nature have spread in the past and were probable overly cautious. The difference is that the vaccines have gone through actual clinical trials so they aren't scientific guesses. I want all this madness around social distancing, lockdowns, masking (or double masking) to end as much as the next guy, its my belief that vaccines are the way to do that.

Anyway you're welcome to your beliefs and I'm glad this conversation has stayed civil. Have a good day! get out on your boat if ya can!

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

CDC, FDA recommend US pause use of Johnson & Johnson's COVID-19 vaccine over blood clot concerns

The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the US Food and Drug Administration are recommending that the United States pause the use of Johnson & Johnson's COVID-19 vaccine

www.wfsb.com

But then you have this.

No one could have predicted this

 

[Beachbummer]

Again, I'm happy for anyone getting the jab. I choose not to. Can we all respect each other's choices?

If the virus did not mutate and your decision only affected you individually I would be totally supportive of your choice to not vaccinate.

The reality is that as the virus continues to reproduce and mutate, the more you vaccinate the better the chances for me to not get sick with a virus that has mutated and is no longer attacked by the immunity the vaccine gave me.

Also, medical resources are limited, currently still in the TX medical center ICU occupancy is above capacity. As folks "choose" to not vaccinate, then need the ICU after COVID, they create contention for others that may have an issue that was not preventable.

I'd equate it to Open Defecation. We know better now. At some point in the near future you will be expected to vaccinate, just like you are expected to mostly use sewer/septic tank now, or vaccinate against yellow fever, etc when traveling to affected areas.

Your decision does not affect only yourself. It's because of the negative impact to others that I have an interest in seeing you feel comfortable and confident to vaccinate. 48,000 dead in Texas so far.

I share this as my humble opinion in the spirit of open discussion.

EDIT: I see I got a dislike for this message. It is your right!, but please also provide your honest feedback on why you dislike/disagree. My goal is to fully understand your thought process and learn from you.

 

[Beachbummer]

101 Die from car crashes DAILY in the US and yet we still drive.

47,000 dead from COVID in Texas so far. I'd trade that for 30 deaths from J&J vaccine (1 per 1.1 Million) . What am I missing?

Genuinely asking.

Stay Healthy!

 

[Gunner]

Shit i just wanted to talk about boats....out

 

[Julian]

Some FACTS, all of which have clinical studies to support....some back 100 years, some recent:

• All three vaccines are clinically proven to be effective.
• Masks have been proven to reduce the spread of disease
• Social distancing has been proven to reduce the spread of disease
• Strict Quarantine is 100% effective at eliminating the spread of disease
• Hand washing is effective at reducing the spread of disease
• Surface cleaning is effective at reducing the spread of disease

Does that mean that statements to the contrary aren't sometimes appropriate....no.

• At the beginning of this pandemic the Trump administration said masks weren't needed. This was because they realized they wanted the healthcare workers to get the masks that were available. Made total sense at the time. Then they said- wear masks. This confused people.....and still does today.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

I'd trade that for 30 deaths from J&J vaccine (1 per 1.1 Million)

I'm not aware of anyone dying from the Vaccine. There have been 6 adverse severe blood clotting events reported in 6.6 Million doses (I've also seen this as 1 per million).

 

[Julian]

Correction on my last post...from the NYT - one death (and still to early to know if the vaccine was indeed the only contributing cause)

WASHINGTON — Injections of Johnson & Johnson’s single-dose coronavirus vaccine came to a sudden halt in much of the country on Tuesday after federal health agencies called for a pause in the vaccine’s use following the emergence of a rare blood clotting in six recipients.​

​

All six were women between the ages of 18 and 48 and all developed the illness within one to three weeks of vaccination. One woman died and a second woman in Nebraska has been hospitalized in critical condition.​

​

Nearly seven million people in the United States have received Johnson & Johnson shots so far, and about nine million more doses have been shipped out to the states, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.​

​

“We are recommending a pause in the use of this vaccine out of an abundance of caution,” Dr. Peter Marks, director of the Food and Drug Administration’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, and Dr. Anne Schuchat, principal deputy director of the C.D.C., said in a joint statement. “Right now, these adverse events appear to be extremely rare.”​

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

If the virus did not mutate and your decision only affected you individually I would be totally supportive of your choice to not vaccinate.

The reality is that as the virus continues to reproduce and mutate, the more you vaccinate the better the chances for me to not get sick with a virus that has mutated and is no longer attacked by the immunity the vaccine gave me.

Also, medical resources are limited, currently still in the TX medical center ICU occupancy is above capacity. As folks "choose" to not vaccinate, then need the ICU after COVID, they create contention for others that may have an issue that was not preventable.

I'd equate it to Open Defecation. We know better now. At some point in the near future you will be expected to vaccinate, just like you are expected to mostly use sewer/septic tank now, or vaccinate against yellow fever, etc when traveling to affected areas.

Your decision does not affect only yourself. It's because of the negative impact to others that I have an interest in seeing you feel comfortable and confident to vaccinate. 48,000 dead in Texas so far.

I share this as my humble opinion in the spirit of open discussion.

So your a BETA tester for a vaccine for a virus that mutates and can no longer be effective? We see this every year with the flu vaccine. People get the flu vaccine and still die from the flu. Speaking of the flu, I am glad that has been eradicated by COVID (1,700 cases nationally since September).

No one knows the long term effects of the vaccine, but they state it is safe. On the flip side they say COVID can have long-term effects, but no one knows that either.

 

[tabbibus]

So your a BETA tester for a vaccine for a virus that mutates and can no longer be effective? We see this every year with the flu vaccine. People get the flu vaccine and still die from the flu. Speaking of the flu, I am glad that has been eradicated by COVID (1,700 cases nationally since September).

No one knows the long term effects of the vaccine, but they state it is safe. On the flip side they say COVID can have long-term effects, but no one knows that either.

In my 7+ years of pulmonary and critical care experience, I have never seen anyone die from the flu that had the flu. People still get the virus, but don't get sick as bad. Similar concept to what we are seeing with COVID. You may still get covid, but just not end up being my patient in the ICU.

On the decreased flu cases, heck yeah! Mask wearing and other measures have decreased the cases of flu significantly. Why not covid to the same degree? Different virus with different infection rates and other such variables. Just goes to show how much COVID isn't "just another flu".

 

[Beachbummer]

So your a BETA tester for a vaccine for a virus that mutates and can no longer be effective? We see this every year with the flu vaccine. People get the flu vaccine and still die from the flu. Speaking of the flu, I am glad that has been eradicated by COVID (1,700 cases nationally since September).

No one knows the long term effects of the vaccine, but they state it is safe. On the flip side they say COVID can have long-term effects, but no one knows that either.

More like Pilot user. After 60,000 got it on the study for 3 months and were observed for 3-6 months. They are the Beta testers. After 60,000+ users, it's not beta testing anymore. Over 1,000,000 vaccines applied in Texas.

How often do you get on a newly designed car or plane? New food that has not been around a while? It's a Risk/Reward calculation.

How long do you personally want to wait? Do you apply the same criteria to other new medicine or food?

My decision was DATA based. We don't know what will happen in the future, but we can tell what has happened already, and how prior vaccines have affected recipients.

What data would you like to see before you feel confident having it applied?

Genuinely interested in your thoughts.

Yamaha Engine Reliability takes years to prove out, but if you want to enjoy the benefits of a new boat you have to take the risk. I have an old boat, with the MR-1. After seeing the data available to me now, I got the J&J shot. not great length of data, but a LOT of applications during and after the study put me at ease.

 

[I_squared_r]

I had my appointment through Riteaid for the J&J vaccine tomorrow and they cancelled it. Something about them not being sure that its safe. I did my research this morning and it looks like the J&J is still relatively new compared to Pfizer and moderna. I will try to reschedule with another vaccine.

 

[swatski]

I haven't checked this thread in a while but let me clear this up for those that responded to my posts.

Am I against vaccinations? Nope.

Am I for the right to choose to receive or not receive a vax? Yep.

Will there be lawsuits against private companies that hold monopolies within their industries that force vaccinations? Yep.

Why do I think this way? I just asked myself these questions:

1) Has the US government been wrong in their handling of a crisis in recent history, pre-covid?

2) Has the US government illegally and tyrannically subjected citizens to perversions of their rights due to a crisis in recent history?

3) Has the US government been forced to issue apologies and vast sums of tax payer money in recent history, over 1 & 2, as proof of their wrongdoings?

These are the reasons I, like many others, will choose not to get the jab. Statistically, when the percentage of vax'd people reaches a certain point, the rest of us that didn't get it, won't need it. So here's to you, test subjects of the world, it's much appreciated!

Thanks for fighting the tyranny for the rest of us while we humbly take the gov handout, the vaccine, Covid Rambo.


--

 

[Beachbummer]

It's tough, I am saddened we cannot have a cordial exchange of opposing ideas. If it doesn't happen here, it can't happen anywhere. We are out of spaces where opposing and controversial ideas can be discussed without it turning into a dumpster fire. I fear this is affecting the country as a whole and supports the creation of eco chambers where folks only hear their own opinion. True progress requires listening to opposing points of view and being willing to change your mind if the data changes.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

More like Pilot user. After 60,000 got it on the study for 3 months and were observed for 3-6 months. They are the Beta testers. After 60,000+ users, it's not beta testing anymore. Over 1,000,000 vaccines applied in Texas.

How often do you get on a newly designed car or plane? New food that has not been around a while? It's a Risk/Reward calculation.

How long do you personally want to wait? Do you apply the same criteria to other new medicine or food?

My decision was DATA based. We don't know what will happen in the future, but we can tell what has happened already, and how prior vaccines have affected recipients.

What data would you like to see before you feel confident having it applied?

Genuinely interested in your thoughts.

Yamaha Engine Reliability takes years to prove out, but if you want to enjoy the benefits of a new boat you have to take the risk. I have an old boat, with the MR-1. After seeing the data available to me now, I got the J&J shot. not great length of data, but a LOT of applications during and after the study put me at ease.

I see zero reason for me to ever have the vaccine. I have had COVID already, I have seen mentions that the vaccine gives you "better" anti-bodies in this thread, but I may have missed the empirical evidence stating such. (Even then, the sample size would be limited). I do not believe this virus is as bad as the media makes it seem. I do not believe the numbers are true data points, and most samples of death are people with underlying conditions. (Note: Heart Disease deaths are up significantly this year) Finding unbiased data is nearly impossible due to it being recorded incorrectly at the source. I am friends with nurses/doctors across the country and literally all of them have told me unsettling things about how they are directed (or have heard others) to report information. I simply don't trust the data. Unless the virus mutates to become more deadly (which it won't, that is not how viruses behave), then I will not get the vaccine. I, as well as nearly everyone else I know look at is as a more contagious flu and see no reason to be vaccinated. I did not want it from the get-go and I have had biologists, nurses, and doctors tell me not to bother with it, which cemented my stance. I have no problem with anyone else choosing to get it, and I fully expect people choosing to get it, to respect my decision not to. I do not put others at risk, if they think they are at risk then they should get the vaccine.

As for comparing to other things. An engine has a warranty - if it goes bad, I get a new one. If a vaccine goes bad - is J&J going to pay my hospital bills? Extreme example, but say it kills my liver, they cant just give me a new liver like they can a new engine. I feel the same way with medicine as the vaccine. I take as little as I need, and I would be very hesitant to take something with 6 months of trial, especially when testing can go 10 years without hitting the market. Now if I had a terminal illness, I would risk a new medication, but at that point, what else do I have to lose? As far as food, I try new food all the time, but I can't think of any new food source that has been discovered in my lifetime. With that being said I will gobble down some sushi and steak tar-tar without hesitation.

 

[tabbibus]

I take serious issue with healthcare providers who downplay this virus and the vaccine. I have lived through this pandemic treating all sorts of people with this virus. Many have died. Many will never be the same again. I know some colleagues who have this downplaying position. None of them base their judgment on solid grounds. At least it has shown me who to trust as a colleague and who not to.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I take serious issue with healthcare providers who downplay this virus and the vaccine. I have lived through this pandemic treating all sorts of people with this virus. Many have died. Many will never be the same again. I know some colleagues who have this downplaying position. None of them base their judgment on solid grounds. At least it has shown me who to trust as a colleague and who not to.

Just curious, how many people that died would you consider to be a healthy individual? For the record I am overweight with asthma and it was pretty much a walk in the park for me. Had 2 hours of feeling like real crap.

 

[AZMark]

I, as well as nearly everyone else I know look at is as a more contagious flu and see no reason to be vaccinated.

This is called an echo chamber and is how questionable and unfounded ideas thrive.

I do not believe this virus is as bad as the media makes it seem. I do not believe the numbers are true data points, and most samples of death are people with underlying conditions. (Note: Heart Disease deaths are up significantly this year)

Dying earlier than you would have from a disease is still a death and is still due to that disease. My wife's uncle died from COVID and he had an underlying condition. Would this condition have killed him in 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025?...no, probably not. So that is not a COVID death or a "true data point"? That's frankly just stupid and defies logic.

 

[2kwik4u]

Just curious, how many people that died would you consider to be a healthy individual? For the record I am overweight with asthma and it was pretty much a walk in the park for me. Had 2 hours of feeling like real crap.

I'm really glad it was light for you. I wouldn't wish this shit on my worst enemy.

I had it WAY rougher, and I still didn't make a hospital trip over it. I'm neither overweight, nor have asthma. 40yrs old. No underlying health issues. I bicycle 6 days a week now. One could argue I'm in good to excellent cardiovascular health. It was HANDS DOWN the worst flu-like symptoms I've had. EVER. I didn't die, but there were a few days in there I thought I might. Tough to breathe. Pulse Ox dropped into the 90's. If it dropped below 90 I was headed to the ER. Got to 91 one night.

Furthermore, I spent a week in the hospital last May. When I walked into that hospital in May, I had to stop twice to catch my breathe as I made my way from the 3rd parking spot into the ER. Once in I was immediately quarantined, and stayed that way for a week until they figured out WTF was wrong with me. Turns out, I had a lung infection of unknown source, and was placed in the isolation wing with other COVID patients until they could figure it out. I could hear people screaming through the walls in pain and respiratory distress. Screaming. Read that again. SCREAMING! It hurt so bad they were SCREAMING for help. Loud enough to hear through insulated walls in a hospital and quite literally wake a sleeping person in the next room. I still have nightmares about that and I'm almost a year out from that experience.

Anyone that downplays the severity of the symptoms of COVID has lost their damn mind. How many first responders, medical institution employees, doctors or scientists have to tell people that this shit is no joke before your "beliefs" are changed? At one point we were losing more people a day than the 9/11 attacks. EVERY SINGLE DAY. These aren't just old feeble people either. I've lost coworkers, friends, and relatives to it. The youngest of which was 23. Just because it hasn't touched you personally, doesn't mean it isn't a big damn deal, and a VERY serious threat.

My final thought is this......I hate to hear that you "believe", as if some of this is open for interpretation. There is overwhelming evidence, both empirical and anecdotal of the severity of the situation. I'm honestly curious as to why any of this is a belief and not a simple logical deduction. If you're waiting for a years long study of the side effects, death rates, improper reporting, or any of the other "contested" issues, then you'll be waiting until your dead from it. There are times in life that action needs to be taken without full information do to the nature of threat. This is one of those times, and the level of risk you're taking by not vaccinating is far far greater than the level of risk you take by getting it, regardless of your beliefs, that's how it works.

I too am out of the thread from here out. I've said my peace, and I'm ready to get back to boating discussions.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

This is called an echo chamber and is how questionable and unfounded ideas thrive.



Dying earlier than you would have from a disease is still a death and is still due to that disease. My wife's uncle died from COVID and he had an underlying condition. Would this condition have killed him in 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025?...no, probably not. So that is not a COVID death or a "true data point"? That's frankly just stupid and defies logic.

My echo chamber is pretty damn large and diverse but you're right. Not much I can do when it's almost everybody I ever met.

Do you think he would have faired better with the flu vs covid?

Your entitled to your opinion but understanding COVID only deaths vs. underlying makes a big difference in the conversation.