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2018 Yamaha Limited S E Audio upgrade

Mainah

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Year
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Haha thanks. I used dolphin grey kingboard/starboard. I was impressed with the quality of it and fairly easy to work with. A 27" x 27" sheet cost me approx. $100 with shipping I believe so it was rather costly just for a board. But I think the benefits of it as it can help transfer heat away from the amps in theory I suppose.
The voltage variance will be dependent on what your music source is coming from. Too much variables and variances. For instance, I use nothing but Bluetooth to play my music. Some use USB while others use the Aux. Bluetooth gives my system the highest volume without distortion. The key is to test when your system clips. I tested everything with an SMD tuner and Oscilloscope from my friend. Started out with the Polk radio then fine tuned the WS. I used 1k, 4k and 40k hz test tones for all this. I was not able to see voltage until I got to the amps due to signals coming from the RCA cables. But even with that the 2 digital tools did all the work for me. I just played around in every way I could to see the results per my action. I had the knobs turned up fully once just to see how things operated and that was not a wise idea. I have it adjusted pretty well now that my amps only are turned up very very slightly from the down position.
But I would never recommend this to anyone and hope no one attempts this without proper guidance.

Disclaimer I am not responsible for any equipment failure. I have destroyed numerous of speakers, subs doing this. But I have also spent over 100 hours tuning my system to find the right spot. So this can get lengthy and tenacious. YOU ARE BASICALLY PUTTING THE SYSTEM ON STEROIDS.
All my life I have taken apart computers and electronics so it became a weird little hobby of mine and with experience you learn what you can and can't do. lol.

What do you mean by writing on the knobs @Mainah ? There are only 4 knobs you will need to mess with.
Yes nice board but I meant the ws420 circuit board. Conformal coating is basicly a thin layer of polyurethane to protect from moisture. In order to have a true marine rating there either needs to be a confirmal coating or better yet a sealed chassis like jl amps. Potting is another way but it obviously is not potted. I was asking for the writing in the ic chips above the knobs. I can see the traces from those to the knobs so was going to try and look up the specs on them.

I also learn from tearing things apart and reading until I understand the principal and application at a detailed level. I find it engaging and fun.

You are absolutely on track with warning folks as too much voltage from the ws420 will kill an amp. I imagine the JLs can handle over 5 volts but would keep it to 4 or under. Given the same setting on the same head unit powering the same ws420 with the POTS (potentiometers) set to the same clock or compass reference the volatge ouput to the amp should be the same.

To give others a little insight music is reproduced using alternating current. So if you run a test tone at 50 hz the the signal is alternating between the two wires creating a postive and negative to the speaker magnet which creates the in and out of the speaker (oscillation) at 50 times per second. To increase amplitude (volume) the volatge of the signal needs to be increased. There is more to it like impedance, noise, analog to digital conversion, digital to analog conversion, and more but did not want to go too deep.
 
Last edited:

Lion

Jet Boat Junkie
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Yamaha
Year
2018
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242 Limited S E-Series
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24
You all are bad influences.... lol,
Just purchased the WS420 BT Equalizer
Wishing money grew on trees.....lol
 

John Mcpartland

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You all are bad influences.... lol,
Just purchased the WS420 BT Equalizer
Wishing money grew on trees.....lol
Damn it! I thought I got my last piece today with my sub, looks like I was wrong
 

FloJet

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Yes nice board but I meant the ws420 circuit board. Conformal coating is basicly a thin layer of polyurethane to protect from moisture. In order to have a true marine rating there either needs to be a confirmal coating or better yet a sealed chassis like jl amps. Potting is another way but it obviously is not potted. I was asking for the writing in the ic chips above the knobs. I can see the traces from those to the knobs so was going to try and look up the specs on them.

I also learn from tearing things apart and reading until I understand the principal and application at a detailed level. I find it engaging and fun.

You are absolutely on track with warning folks as too much voltage from the ws420 will kill an amp. I imagine the JLs can handle over 5 volts but would keep it to 4 or under. Given the same setting on the same head unit powering the same ws420 with the POTS (potentiometers) set to the same clock or compass reference the volatge ouput to the amp should be the same.

To give others a little insight music is reproduced using alternating current. So if you run a test tone at 50 hz the the signal is alternating between the two wires creating a postive and negative to the speaker magnet which creates the in and out of the speaker (oscillation) at 50 times per second. To increase amplitude (volume) the volatge of the signal needs to be increased. There is more to it like impedance, noise, analog to digital conversion, digital to analog conversion, and more but did not want to go too deep.
Man I don't know how any of us can ever keep up with you @Mainah .
Damn genius. I so need to pick your brain more lol. To be honest I spent so much time trying to figure out how the WS420 worked, I did not pay too much attention to the circuitry of it the board. I highly doubt that it's true marine rated tho. But I don't keep my craft on the water so I never worry too much about all that like lol.

Now writing in the IC chips is just way over my big sized head with small brains. I'm like a little kid and get excited and wowed when I look at a computer motherboard when I'm building one. Wondering how the hell anyone figure this out???

I don't like warranty claims and messed too much things up in my lifetime so I try to leave circuitry components alone when I can.
Funny you mention the alternating signal. Something interesting I've learned while doing setups, is a 4 channel and up amps now days only have the signal coming from the negative posts? That baffles me. Different for any other setup. But not sure if that's the case with all 4 channel and up amps.

My next project is to really test and go indepth with USB and AUX interfaces. People swear to me that's the better route for listening to music. Some friends I know hook their phones directly to the WS420 and play thru that. But again why let your phones DAC system do all that work? But it seems most radios are lacking in this compared to the polk/connext system which impresses me. I can see on other boats or setups with different radios why AUX or USB would be a better route
Just so many questions and variable to all this.
 

FloJet

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You all are bad influences.... lol,
Just purchased the WS420 BT Equalizer
Wishing money grew on trees.....lol
HA and it's just the beginning. Anytime you see @swatski mod post run. He makes you want to spend the world. I could swear his boat is a spaceship now! :droid::snaphappy:
 

Mainah

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Man I don't know how any of us can ever keep up with you @Mainah .
Damn genius. I so need to pick your brain more lol. To be honest I spent so much time trying to figure out how the WS420 worked, I did not pay too much attention to the circuitry of it the board. I highly doubt that it's true marine rated tho. But I don't keep my craft on the water so I never worry too much about all that like lol.

Now writing in the IC chips is just way over my big sized head with small brains. I'm like a little kid and get excited and wowed when I look at a computer motherboard when I'm building one. Wondering how the hell anyone figure this out???

I don't like warranty claims and messed too much things up in my lifetime so I try to leave circuitry components alone when I can.
Funny you mention the alternating signal. Something interesting I've learned while doing setups, is a 4 channel and up amps now days only have the signal coming from the negative posts? That baffles me. Different for any other setup. But not sure if that's the case with all 4 channel and up amps.

My next project is to really test and go indepth with USB and AUX interfaces. People swear to me that's the better route for listening to music. Some friends I know hook their phones directly to the WS420 and play thru that. But again why let your phones DAC system do all that work? But it seems most radios are lacking in this compared to the polk/connext system which impresses me. I can see on other boats or setups with different radios why AUX or USB would be a better route
Just so many questions and variable to all this.

Bluetooth compresses the signal which is why it does not sound as good. Now there are newer versions of bluetooth like 4.1 that encodes and decodes the signal such that there is less loss. I have not torn apart the Polk head unit but based on experience I am betting that it is a BT 2.0 chipset inside and not a great one at that. If the WS420BT has 4.1 then it is possible that could end up being the best sounding source. Directly piping your phone into the aux jack of a ws420 may sound better. The best would be usb input into the 420 as that is already digital and super high quality but I don't think there is an usb input for it. There are so many options for a high quality sound signal in home and pc gear that I wish were available in car/marine systems. for the record I do use the polk usb jack to play music from my phone and it also charges it at the same time.
 

FloJet

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Bluetooth compresses the signal which is why it does not sound as good. Now there are newer versions of bluetooth like 4.1 that encodes and decodes the signal such that there is less loss. I have not torn apart the Polk head unit but based on experience I am betting that it is a BT 2.0 chipset inside and not a great one at that. If the WS420BT has 4.1 then it is possible that could end up being the best sounding source. Directly piping your phone into the aux jack of a ws420 may sound better. The best would be usb input into the 420 as that is already digital and super high quality but I don't think there is an usb input for it. There are so many options for a high quality sound signal in home and pc gear that I wish were available in car/marine systems. for the record I do use the polk usb jack to play music from my phone and it also charges it at the same time.
Yes in theory BT should be the lesser of the 3. But I think you need to take into consideration how they work now days. Like you stated BT 4.1 and above is a different beast now days. With me using 5.0 and me betting connext is well above 4.1, it's pretty seamless.
But all in all my phone is not doing much as the Polk system under the connext is doing all the digital conversion. For it not to clip until high levels lets me know its a good dedicated radio system. When you use AUX, you have to remember that your phone's digital to analog system is being utilized rather than the polk's radio DAC system. You are basically bypassing the polks DAC system in this setup. Now days that's not always the best as in the polk setup. Some phones don't have the proper DAC built in. But you are very correct in how it charges your phone using USB. A big plus for IPhone users. For me and my android, I can go a day and half without charging. Hehehehe.
 

PAsoundman

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Lion-


Looks like you've got a nice start on the system- congrats!


I wanted to chime in as there is some good information, bad information and misinformation regarding specifics of the audio system setup, amplifiers, clipping, etc. Instead of pointing out what is *wrong* to people who are already convinced they are right, I will simply give you this information so you can use it to help you get your system configured, setup and tuned well.


The JL amplifiers (HD / MHD models) have a feature that adrianp89 and FloJet mentioned. It is called RIPS. This is essentially a fully regulated power supply, meaning that the amplifier can output its full power at a range of power input voltages. (If your boat is running and has 14.4vdc power supplied to the amplifier it will provide the same output power as if it is off and has 12vdc or lower, up until the point there is too much voltage sag/drain that the amplifier will perform poorly, or shut off for under voltage. The JL’s also output (about) the same power at each speaker impedance load you apply to a given channel. Those are nice benefits. The drawbacks are that with an unregulated power supply, you’d have the potential to make more power at lower impedances or when bridging. Unregulated power supplies though will not produce the same constant output power once the input power drops below 14.4vdc. This is why you will see amplifiers with different rated output power based on 14.4v or 12v input.


Now, for impedance loads to an amplifier… Amplifier channels are “stable” to certain impedance loads. You can ALWAYS connect a higher impedance load to amplifiers channels without risk of damaging the amplifier, but you should not attempt to connect an impedance load which is lower than the rating of a given amplifier channel. The impedance load could be a single speaker, or multiple speakers wired together. What is important is that the impedance load presented to the amplifier (by whatever number of speakers are connected to the channel(s) ) is within the spec allowed by the amplifier manual. Speakers come in a multitude of impedance ratings. Most car audio speakers are 4 ohm, with occasional 2ohm or 8ohm impedances. Most home audio speakers are 8ohm with the occasional 4ohm, 16ohm and higher impedances. You can connect speakers together in series/parallel configurations to combine their impedance loads which would then be presented to the amplifier. Of course, the amplifier channel can only put out so much power so connecting many speakers to a channel (even if it is safe from an impedance standpoint) is not always a good idea because it may not yield enough output volume.


Bridging… We know that amplifiers can produce the same output on a channel at multiple impedances (with regulated power supplies) OR they could output more power at lower impedances (with unregulated power supplies). Another thing that many amplifiers allow you to do is to “bridge” channels, or combine the output power of 2 channels into one. *Typically*, when you bridge channels, the amplifiers safe impedance load that can be connected is doubled, so you cannot connect loads too low to it. *Typically*, when you bridge 2 channels, the amplifier makes at least double the output power into a single channel. Adrianp89 was mentioning the value of this when you may want to have more output power available for a given application. For example, maybe you would have a speaker like a subwoofer or a large woofer and you want to be able to provide more output power to it than a single channel can provide…bridging allows you to do that.

Clipping and signal voltage… I have only once measured a source unit that did NOT clip on any output at a range of frequencies at its max volume. And that was a VERY expensive unit no longer produced. Using an oscilloscope allows you to find the clipping point of your source unit so that you will know to keep the volume below that setting for the cleanest sound. Your goal is to get a clean signal with enough voltage to fully drive the amplifiers being connected. It is important to note that what adrianp89 said is very much correct. The gain is to adjust for the input voltage provided to the amplifier. All amplifiers require a certain amount of input voltage in order to fully drive them to maximum output power. (Each amplifier model is different in how much is required). If your signal voltage from your source unit is low, then you may need to adjust the gain up on the amplifier to account for the lower input signal. If you have a very high input voltage, chances are you won’t need to adjust the amplifier gain up much to reach maximum output before clipping. A higher voltage signal is a good thing because it provides a higher signal to noise ratio. It is important to note that amplifiers have a rating for how much input voltage signal they can handle- you *can* have too high of a signal which could damage the amplifier. (So be careful with line drivers as some produce a LOT of signal voltage)


If you plan to use a separate DSP unit (some source units have enough DSP power built in to do it on their own) for tuning the system, that would go in between the source unit and the amplifiers and you would still want to ensure that the DSP output isn’t clipping. You would also then ensure that the gains on the amps are set based on the input voltage the DSP unit is sending them.


Best of luck in your pursuit for great sound!
 
Last edited:

Lion

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Year
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Boat Model
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Lion-


Looks like you've got a nice start on the system- congrats!


I wanted to chime in as there is some good information, bad information and misinformation regarding specifics of the audio system setup, amplifiers, clipping, etc. Instead of pointing out what is *wrong* to people who are already convinced they are right, I will simply give you this information so you can use it to help you get your system configured, setup and tuned well.


The JL amplifiers (HD / MHD models) have a feature that adrianp89 and FloJet mentioned. It is called RIPS. This is essentially a fully regulated power supply, meaning that the amplifier can output its full power at a range of power input voltages. (If your boat is running and has 14.4vdc power supplied to the amplifier it will provide the same output power as if it is off and has 12vdc or lower, up until the point there is too much voltage sag/drain that the amplifier will perform poorly, or shut off for under voltage. The JL’s also output (about) the same power at each speaker impedance load you apply to a given channel. Those are nice benefits. The drawbacks are that with an unregulated power supply, you’d have the potential to make more power at lower impedances or when bridging. Unregulated power supplies though will not produce the same constant output power once the input power drops below 14.4vdc. This is why you will see amplifiers with different rated output power based on 14.4v or 12v input.


Now, for impedance loads to an amplifier… Amplifier channels are “stable” to certain impedance loads. You can ALWAYS connect a higher impedance load to amplifiers channels without risk of damaging the amplifier, but you should not attempt to connect an impedance load which is lower than the rating of a given amplifier channel. The impedance load could be a single speaker, or multiple speakers wired together. What is important is that the impedance load presented to the amplifier (by whatever number of speakers are connected to the channel(s) ) is within the spec allowed by the amplifier manual. Speakers come in a multitude of impedance ratings. Most car audio speakers are 4 ohm, with occasional 2ohm or 8ohm impedances. Most home audio speakers are 8ohm with the occasional 4ohm, 16ohm and higher impedances. You can connect speakers together in series/parallel configurations to combine their impedance loads which would then be presented to the amplifier. Of course, the amplifier channel can only put out so much power so connecting many speakers to a channel (even if it is safe from an impedance standpoint) is not always a good idea because it may not yield enough output volume.


Bridging… We know that amplifiers can produce the same output on a channel at multiple impedances (with regulated power supplies) OR they could output more power at lower impedances (with unregulated power supplies). Another thing that many amplifiers allow you to do is to “bridge” channels, or combine the output power of 2 channels into one. *Typically*, when you bridge channels, the amplifiers safe impedance load that can be connected is doubled, so you cannot connect loads too low to it. *Typically*, when you bridge 2 channels, the amplifier makes at least double the output power into a single channel. Adrianp89 was mentioning the value of this when you may want to have more output power available for a given application. For example, maybe you would have a speaker like a subwoofer or a large woofer and you want to be able to provide more output power to it than a single channel can provide…bridging allows you to do that.

Clipping and signal voltage… I have only once measured a source unit that did NOT clip on any output at a range of frequencies at its max volume. And that was a VERY expensive unit no longer produced. Using an oscilloscope allows you to find the clipping point of your source unit so that you will know to keep the volume below that setting for the cleanest sound. Your goal is to get a clean signal with enough voltage to fully drive the amplifiers being connected. It is important to note that what adrianp89 said is very much correct. The gain is to adjust for the input voltage provided to the amplifier. All amplifiers require a certain amount of input voltage in order to fully drive them to maximum output power. (Each amplifier model is different in how much is required). If your signal voltage from your source unit is low, then you may need to adjust the gain up on the amplifier to account for the lower input signal. If you have a very high input voltage, chances are you won’t need to adjust the amplifier gain up much to reach maximum output before clipping. A higher voltage signal is a good thing because it provides a higher signal to noise ratio. It is important to note that amplifiers have a rating for how much input voltage signal they can handle- you *can* have too high of a signal which could damage the amplifier. (So be careful with line drivers as some produce a LOT of signal voltage)


If you plan to use a separate DSP unit (some source units have enough DSP power built in to do it on their own) for tuning the system, that would go in between the source unit and the amplifiers and you would still want to ensure that the DSP output isn’t clipping. You would also then ensure that the gains on the amps are set based on the input voltage the DSP unit is sending them.


Best of luck in your pursuit for great sound!
So I have some homework to do....lol
My mind is spinning 100mph....Lots of great info you provided. The more I read
It, the more I am comprehending how everything works.
Thank you.....thank all of you for taking the time out of your schedules to reply.
I really appreciate the help and advice you all are providing.
 

Lion

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Finally picked her up and did some work on here.
Installed cobra jet with mega fangs.
Stoltz roller.
Veve Trailer Guides w/ CE lights
Tinted the windows
And most importantly, system upgrade is in...
JL M1000/5v2
JLM800/8v2
JL M10IB5-SG-WH x2
2 sets JL M880-ETXv3-SG-TBLD 2- stationery clamps 2- swivel clamps
8- Wetsounds XS-650-s-RGB
Wetsounds 420 BT Equalizer
Wetsounds RGB controller
6 ft 5150 LED Whip

Thank you all who contributed on this post with info and ideas to help me out. I really appreciate it.
I still have a few more upgrades to do and a few more sound system add ons thanks to you all....;)
All these new ideas are costing me a pretty penny.... every time I read one of your all’s post, I’m spending money....lol
 

swatski

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Finally picked her up and did some work on here.
Installed cobra jet with mega fangs.
Stoltz roller.
Veve Trailer Guides w/ CE lights
Tinted the windows
And most importantly, system upgrade is in...
JL M1000/5v2
JLM800/8v2
JL M10IB5-SG-WH x2
2 sets JL M880-ETXv3-SG-TBLD 2- stationery clamps 2- swivel clamps
8- Wetsounds XS-650-s-RGB
Wetsounds 420 BT Equalizer
Wetsounds RGB controller
6 ft 5150 LED Whip

Thank you all who contributed on this post with info and ideas to help me out. I really appreciate it.
I still have a few more upgrades to do and a few more sound system add ons thanks to you all....;)
All these new ideas are costing me a pretty penny.... every time I read one of your all’s post, I’m spending money....lol
We need pics!!!!!!!

--
 

FloJet

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Finally picked her up and did some work on here.
Installed cobra jet with mega fangs.
Stoltz roller.
Veve Trailer Guides w/ CE lights
Tinted the windows
And most importantly, system upgrade is in...
JL M1000/5v2
JLM800/8v2
JL M10IB5-SG-WH x2
2 sets JL M880-ETXv3-SG-TBLD 2- stationery clamps 2- swivel clamps
8- Wetsounds XS-650-s-RGB
Wetsounds 420 BT Equalizer
Wetsounds RGB controller
6 ft 5150 LED Whip

Thank you all who contributed on this post with info and ideas to help me out. I really appreciate it.
I still have a few more upgrades to do and a few more sound system add ons thanks to you all....;)
All these new ideas are costing me a pretty penny.... every time I read one of your all’s post, I’m spending money....lol
Congrats. Now you just need to go enjoy yourself. Upgrade season is over and it's now getting into fun season!
 

Lion

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Jaylex

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Sweet....looks nice....feels good to see all of it finally come together.
 

Lion

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Sweet....looks nice....feels good to see all of it finally come together.
You are rt about that Jaylex. Feels good to know that I will be able to hear some sounds this season.
Will be adding a 3rd battery for sure real soon.
Looks like I will have more upgrades coming up after October. The third amp and another set of speakers.
I will wait to see what other things you all do first the follow suit...lol
 

adrianp89

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Love the amp rack!
 

Lion

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Love the amp rack!
Thanks. They dropped the ball at will call when I went to pick up the starboard. I couldn't wait no longer so I pulled a swatski (Macgyver) and came up with a simple design for now. Figured it would allow it to stay somewhat cooler by allowing they heat to escape Being that I am only running 2 amps rt now.
 

Lion

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So I just wanted to update... just purchased another JL M800/8v2, thanks to another bad influence... won’t mention any names...cough Jaylex...cough cough...lol
That brings me up to 3 JL amps. 2- M800’s and 1- M1000
Thanks buddy
 

Jaylex

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Awesome!!! That should def sound bad ass once all hooked up.

I can tell you once you put 200w to each of those M880 towers it will be super loud.

You should be getting the most out of all 30 of your speakers now,lol....If you have the WS alink well def have to connect next time were out.

I should be getting my last amp installed in the next 2 weeks before the holiday.

Summer should be loud clear!
 

Shookie

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Old thread, but enjoyed this one. Same boat as me and I want to put helm speakers in the cockpit so I can hear better. Want to use the same location as you and am happy to see someone has speakers there before I start cutting!!! Will be adding an amp as well
 
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