Aargh... Milkshake Engine Oil... WTF? (Port Engine, 2016 AR240, ~300 hrs)

[2kwik4u]

@Ronnie I think the Supercharges require a 480 VAC 3 phase input. This COULD be achieved in a residential setting with a 240 VAC 1 phase to 480V 3 phase step up transformer, but most homes wouldn't have 3 phase power available. I also hear they demand about 120 kW, which would likely require a dedicated 3 phase drop and an individual transformer rather than the grouped ones used in neighborhoods. I suppose it's possible though.

Have a buddy with a step up 3-phase convertor in his garage to run his CNC equipment. Really interesting device. Doesn't get around the current draw though. Neat idea.

 

[Bluewater272]

Ok so I'm seriously questioning my sanity here but I'm compelled to explain my comments here for one reason and only one reason... what Ronnie just wrote. I spent a lot of time on this forum trying to share my knowledge and learn from others. My post count to reaction score ratio shows how effective my efforts must have been. I haven't been on here in about a year, except for a post a few months ago showing everyone how I fixed my cracking Shoreland'r trailer fenders.

If anyone wants to waste time reading garbage, these last threads might shine a little light on why I called "Karma" on this thread's subject.

https://jetboaters.net/threads/riva-maptuner-x-ecu-reflash-throttle-response-and-speed-control.15799/page-5#post-344653

https://jetboaters.net/threads/this-looks-pretty-effective-and-it-wont-rip-your-pump-off.20401/page-6#post-349338

Yes, obviously my "hahaha", "lol" and "more lolz" was pretty harsh. But you all should see by swatski's lack of/delayed response that he knew EXACTLY what I meant and why I said it. For a long time he was my biggest fan. Seriously, like puppy dog following you around fan. I obviously did something to him, to this day I have no idea what, and he turned on me. He turned HARD. He sh!t talked every post I made. He clicked "dislike" on every single post of mine, then after being called out on it, he reversed the dislikes. I tried to tell the membership here what kind of person he REALLY is, but of course I was the bad guy. He's not a good person. I realized with him vehemently against me and everything I said, it didn't make sense for me to stick around. That's why I left. And as Ronnie so perfectly said, life is better when you're not wasting it on internet forums. If I'm not learning and sharing, I'm wasting my time. Swatski ended my learning and sharing on this forum, and in a way I thank him for that. Sometimes you need a reality check on what internet forums really are.

Here is why when I stumbled onto this thread I had so many "lolz"...

1- I spent many posts on here pointing out that tuning ANY engine without logging the results is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and strongly discouraged it. In case you all have forgotten, that's exactly what swatski did, he had his engines "tuned" (stock calibrations modified) without ANY monitoring of mixtures/knock/exhaust temps/fuel requirements/etc. I tried to tell him this was insanity. I was attacked.

2- Not only has his engine calibrations been modified from stock, many things around and in the engine has been "modified". (I'm being nice and not calling it what it actually was). He's not even using the recommended oil in the engines. (No, we don't need an oil debate here. I have over 4 decades of experience with engine building and failure analysis and MY OPINION is he was using the wrong oil.) The exhaust and intake systems were modified from stock, and again, in my opinion done incorrectly. The cooling system was obviously compromised by these modifications. The exhaust temps were not only compromised by the aftermarket engine calibrations, but by "sound deadening" modifications done incorrectly.

3- This one's not going to be popular on here but he was using the boat in a matter it wasn't designed for. These Yamaha's ARE NOT WAKESURF BOATS. If wakesurfing is the most common thing you do with your boat, you should probably buy a wakesurf boat. lol. Again, this boat was heavily modified to do something it wasn't built to do. It was operated in a way it wasn't intended to be operated. (Don't bother bringing up Yamaha's marketing claims, they're simply that, marketing.)

4- I read 9 pages of people trying to diagnose the issue through the internet. Sorry but that's always funny to me. I know you're all trying to help and be nice, but you can't diagnose anything you can't see or know anything about.

5- The shop that has the boat, supposedly the most amazing shop with the most amazing mechanic working in it has had the boat for weeks (MONTHS?) and still has no idea what's wrong with it. Really?

6- The most amazing shop and mechanic spends time and the customer's money for weeks, gives it back to the customer, he takes it out and quickly discovers IT'S STILL BROKEN. Really? Oh yeah and the 40 quarts of oil was pretty funny too. WTF????

7- The most amazing shop and mechanic has to call Yamaha to figure out what's wrong with the engine. Hahaha. In my 33 years as a GM Journeyman tech I called GM ZERO times to ask them how to diagnose a problem. If you're calling the factory to diagnose a problem, you're lost.

8- Which brings me to the disturbing part... The mention of warranty coverage. IF this engine gets warrantied by Yamaha or YES, it's INSURANCE FRAUD, plain and simple. That's not a laughing matter. You and I all pay for somebodies negligence. I'm not a fan of that.

9- Lastly, here's a quote from swatski from the thread where I cautioned against Riva's tuning without logging...
"The only way to know where the limits are is to go and break them. Then you know."
Yep, he found out the limits.


I'm not going to get into any big battles on here. I explained my obnoxious comments. Take it or leave it, like me or hate me, it's all good. To those like Ronnie that appreciated the things I tried to share on here, THANKS! For those that hang out on internet forums to only gather post counts or sell merchandise, good luck with that. And for people that don't have good, kind, pure souls but instead do things that aren't honest, fair or right and hurt others in the process, Karma's a beeaatch. lol.

Nobody cares, your first post in this thread was uncalled for, so was this one. Insurance fraud? LOL. Way to ballbag on a bunch of people trying to help, I'd love to know how a tune opened up a door to start allowing water into the crankcase (and what magic allowed you to do that remotely).

 

[2kwik4u]

......I'd love to know how a tune opened up a door to start allowing water into the crankcase.........

Elevated and unchecked Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGT's) can lead to material failure in this area. Overly advanced timing, too lean of a mixture, and elevated exhaust backpressure are the most common causes of elevated EGT's in gasoline engines. A tune directly relates to mixture and timing.

 

[J-RAD]

I was waiting for him to bring up his post count and reaction score ratio... Again. ?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Is it ok to like both these guys? Damn it, now I’m missing @ClemsonTiger

Hate reading this about your engine @swatski. Hopefully you get some positive news soon.

 

[2kwik4u]

Is it ok to like both these guys?

I do. Not sure who determines the "ok-ness" of that though.

 

[J-RAD]

Sorry guys... I'll refrain from inciting further drama. I know better.

 

[swatski]

@swatski the bubbles you see in the pic are actually the water/oil that was bubbling. We removed the valve cover so we could see the cams. We pressurized the block using the small water hose fitting that comes off the side of the block. We have made some block off plates to stop the air from going out of the exhaust. We honestly couldn't find the leak until we removed the valve cover. We knew it was leaking but not out of anywhere we expected. I looked at the pictures you posted and we weren't leaking there. It was actually leaking underneath the bolt that holds the head down. The crack is at the 90deg edge where the head is machined for the bolt head. We replaced the heads as assemblies. It is not cheap at all but the labor of swapping out the parts and doing the valve clearance check/adjustment just isn't worth it in our opinion compared to buying a head assy ready to go. Especially when these happened in August and we only have a month or so left of the season.

Thank you, this is most helpful!

—

 

[swatski]

Ok so I'm seriously questioning my sanity here but I'm compelled to explain my comments here for one reason and only one reason... what Ronnie just wrote. I spent a lot of time on this forum trying to share my knowledge and learn from others. My post count to reaction score ratio shows how effective my efforts must have been. I haven't been on here in about a year, except for a post a few months ago showing everyone how I fixed my cracking Shoreland'r trailer fenders.

If anyone wants to waste time reading garbage, these last threads might shine a little light on why I called "Karma" on this thread's subject.

https://jetboaters.net/threads/riva-maptuner-x-ecu-reflash-throttle-response-and-speed-control.15799/page-5#post-344653

https://jetboaters.net/threads/this-looks-pretty-effective-and-it-wont-rip-your-pump-off.20401/page-6#post-349338

Yes, obviously my "hahaha", "lol" and "more lolz" was pretty harsh. But you all should see by swatski's lack of/delayed response that he knew EXACTLY what I meant and why I said it. For a long time he was my biggest fan. Seriously, like puppy dog following you around fan. I obviously did something to him, to this day I have no idea what, and he turned on me. He turned HARD. He sh!t talked every post I made. He clicked "dislike" on every single post of mine, then after being called out on it, he reversed the dislikes. I tried to tell the membership here what kind of person he REALLY is, but of course I was the bad guy. He's not a good person. I realized with him vehemently against me and everything I said, it didn't make sense for me to stick around. That's why I left. And as Ronnie so perfectly said, life is better when you're not wasting it on internet forums. If I'm not learning and sharing, I'm wasting my time. Swatski ended my learning and sharing on this forum, and in a way I thank him for that. Sometimes you need a reality check on what internet forums really are.

Here is why when I stumbled onto this thread I had so many "lolz"...

1- I spent many posts on here pointing out that tuning ANY engine without logging the results is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and strongly discouraged it. In case you all have forgotten, that's exactly what swatski did, he had his engines "tuned" (stock calibrations modified) without ANY monitoring of mixtures/knock/exhaust temps/fuel requirements/etc. I tried to tell him this was insanity. I was attacked.

2- Not only has his engine calibrations been modified from stock, many things around and in the engine has been "modified". (I'm being nice and not calling it what it actually was). He's not even using the recommended oil in the engines. (No, we don't need an oil debate here. I have over 4 decades of experience with engine building and failure analysis and MY OPINION is he was using the wrong oil.) The exhaust and intake systems were modified from stock, and again, in my opinion done incorrectly. The cooling system was obviously compromised by these modifications. The exhaust temps were not only compromised by the aftermarket engine calibrations, but by "sound deadening" modifications done incorrectly.

3- This one's not going to be popular on here but he was using the boat in a matter it wasn't designed for. These Yamaha's ARE NOT WAKESURF BOATS. If wakesurfing is the most common thing you do with your boat, you should probably buy a wakesurf boat. lol. Again, this boat was heavily modified to do something it wasn't built to do. It was operated in a way it wasn't intended to be operated. (Don't bother bringing up Yamaha's marketing claims, they're simply that, marketing.)

4- I read 9 pages of people trying to diagnose the issue through the internet. Sorry but that's always funny to me. I know you're all trying to help and be nice, but you can't diagnose anything you can't see or know anything about.

5- The shop that has the boat, supposedly the most amazing shop with the most amazing mechanic working in it has had the boat for weeks (MONTHS?) and still has no idea what's wrong with it. Really?

6- The most amazing shop and mechanic spends time and the customer's money for weeks, gives it back to the customer, he takes it out and quickly discovers IT'S STILL BROKEN. Really? Oh yeah and the 40 quarts of oil was pretty funny too. WTF????

7- The most amazing shop and mechanic has to call Yamaha to figure out what's wrong with the engine. Hahaha. In my 33 years as a GM Journeyman tech I called GM ZERO times to ask them how to diagnose a problem. If you're calling the factory to diagnose a problem, you're lost.

8- Which brings me to the disturbing part... The mention of warranty coverage. IF this engine gets warrantied by Yamaha or YES, it's INSURANCE FRAUD, plain and simple. That's not a laughing matter. You and I all pay for somebodies negligence. I'm not a fan of that.

9- Lastly, here's a quote from swatski from the thread where I cautioned against Riva's tuning without logging...
"The only way to know where the limits are is to go and break them. Then you know."
Yep, he found out the limits.


I'm not going to get into any big battles on here. I explained my obnoxious comments. Take it or leave it, like me or hate me, it's all good. To those like Ronnie that appreciated the things I tried to share on here, THANKS! For those that hang out on internet forums to only gather post counts or sell merchandise, good luck with that. And for people that don't have good, kind, pure souls but instead do things that aren't honest, fair or right and hurt others in the process, Karma's a beeaatch. lol.

If this turns out to be a cracked oil cooler, I’ll send you a framed picture, lolol.
Until then, please (please!!!) stop your unhinged troll.
You are an embarrassment.

—

 

[swatski]

Btw - I might have forgotten to mention - the exhaust issues were ruled out as most likely insignificant, there was no blockage or leaks, after taking it apart and inspecting they put the parts back together and the dealer decided not to change or replace anything. The exhaust is stock. He did advise not to pack the insulation/sound proofing foam back into the bilge space.

—

 

[swatski]

Elevated and unchecked Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGT's) can lead to

Is it ok to like both these guys? Damn it, now I’m missing @ClemsonTiger

Hate reading this about your engine @swatski. Hopefully you get some positive news soon.

No.
You must choose one

 

[swatski]

Elevated and unchecked Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGT's) can lead to material failure in this area. Overly advanced timing, too lean of a mixture, and elevated exhaust backpressure are the most common causes of elevated EGT's in gasoline engines. A tune directly relates to mixture and timing.

Yes, something that could contribute along with several other factors like running shallow long nonstop wake surfing sets while heavily ballasted platform under water, etc etc , and more things - all of which discussed earlier in the thread by me. Most of our surfing is on my river so that’s running on regular octane shitty gas and factory tune, on the other hand the RIVA tune, which by the way is not a racing tune, with no boost, no revving beyond the factory limit as verified by YDS, and designed to smooth out the throttle response curve, any little power gains due to timing advance meant to be in lieu of switching to premium/high octane fuel, actually no advance at WOT and no top speed or power gains there, per RIVA and MaptunerX team, this is not a DIY project or device.

Either way, I’m going to wait and see what the SCBM mechanic, Pat, finds. They have a list of things to look into, and Yamaha looking into this as well. If by chance it’s a head bolt cracks on the port engine similar to what @B_Mutter posted it is going to get interesting I guess.

At some point if I find out anything specific I’ll update the first post and/or start a new thread to keep the useful info streamlined free from vitriol.
Fingers crossed we can get to the bottom of it and learn something.

—

 

[Betik]

@gmtech16450yz you sure are right swatski is not a good a person. You should meet his wife and kids. Terrible people too.

the fraud part is most defiantly true as well. I witnessed this personally when he was willing to risk his daughters safety so Yamaha can diagnose the failed tower.

good job internet detective/psychologist

 

[swatski]

...

I know... should have left it alone...
Made a mistake of going back and actually re-reading that last garbage post... and WOW!
Not just misleading, it's defamatory, kind of a twisted hit job. No idea what would make one go there, either. Never met this dude, gmtech.

For the sake of anyone reading this thread - here is my point-by-point rebuttal:

1- I spent many posts on here pointing out that tuning ANY engine without logging the results is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and strongly discouraged it. In case you all have forgotten, that's exactly what swatski did, he had his engines "tuned" (stock calibrations modified) without ANY monitoring of mixtures/knock/exhaust temps/fuel requirements/etc. I tried to tell him this was insanity. I was attacked.

That is demonstrably false and misleading statement.
I have used what is commonly referred to as "canned tunes". Ever heard of it? been available in jet ski world for some time, R&D was selling those for Yamaha, SeaDoo for a decade, more recently RIVA has developed a good name in that space, and they actually value it. They do that kind of work for a living, their collaboration with the Maptune team has been a commercial success, for good reason.
Yamaha dealers have been known to recommend those to customers.

2- Not only has his engine calibrations been modified from stock, many things around and in the engine has been "modified". (I'm being nice and not calling it what it actually was). He's not even using the recommended oil in the engines. (No, we don't need an oil debate here. I have over 4 decades of experience with engine building and failure analysis and MY OPINION is he was using the wrong oil.) The exhaust and intake systems were modified from stock, and again, in my opinion done incorrectly. The cooling system was obviously compromised by these modifications. The exhaust temps were not only compromised by the aftermarket engine calibrations, but by "sound deadening" modifications done incorrectly.

No idea what modifications is this guy referring to. Ribbon delete? that's another item on a dealer recommended mod list, especially at elevation.
As far as the exhaust - there are no modifications to my exhaust I know of.
Sound deadening material filling the empty space in the bilge? the exhaust is not air cooled, those things work well even in the confines of a jet ski bilge with no air circulation.
My dealer initial concern with a part of a cooling hose proved a red herring.
Oil comment? That's a bizarre, Amsoil Marine brand I use surpasses recommended specs as far as Yamaha oil guidelines. I change it often.
But whatever.

3- This one's not going to be popular on here but he was using the boat in a matter it wasn't designed for. These Yamaha's ARE NOT WAKESURF BOATS. If wakesurfing is the most common thing you do with your boat, you should probably buy a wakesurf boat. lol. Again, this boat was heavily modified to do something it wasn't built to do. It was operated in a way it wasn't intended to be operated. (Don't bother bringing up Yamaha's marketing claims, they're simply that, marketing.)

Funny, Yamaha does market these boats as wake surf boats and claims they ARE built for that.
In fact, they even make a wake edition equipped with the exact same engine/cooling systems (as the non-wake models)...
I have raised that topic and it's been discussed a lot but I don't think my use of my Yamaha AR240 for wakesurfing constitutes a breach as far as the boat's intended use. So, I'm not sure what the point is. Yes, I could buy another boat just to surf, is that a question? IDK, I'm confused.

4- I read 9 pages of people trying to diagnose the issue through the internet. Sorry but that's always funny to me. I know you're all trying to help and be nice, but you can't diagnose anything you can't see or know anything about.

I wouldn't know what's different? how could johnny the gmtech offer accurate diagnostic comments from afar while others be just shooting blanks...? That's special.

5- The shop that has the boat, supposedly the most amazing shop with the most amazing mechanic working in it has had the boat for weeks (MONTHS?) and still has no idea what's wrong with it. Really?

So far I have been impressed with Saint Charles Boat and Motor attitude and effort to help. While some delays were inevitable, as they were dealing with previously scheduled winterization projects the communication has been great, no concerns with them being responsive and warrant nothing but positive comments (I posted those earlier in the thread). Nothing's changed.
Patrick, who is the point man on the project is recognized regionally as an extraordinarily capable Yamaha mechanic. I have no reason to doubt his competence, or his level of effort. This time of year we all have some holiday breaks.

Shame on gmtech, posting slanderous nonsense with no first hand knowledge.

6- The most amazing shop and mechanic spends time and the customer's money for weeks, gives it back to the customer, he takes it out and quickly discovers IT'S STILL BROKEN. Really? Oh yeah and the 40 quarts of oil was pretty funny too. WTF????

I find those kinds of comments to be completely ignorant. Characteristic of internet trolls.

7- The most amazing shop and mechanic has to call Yamaha to figure out what's wrong with the engine. Hahaha. In my 33 years as a GM Journeyman tech I called GM ZERO times to ask them how to diagnose a problem. If you're calling the factory to diagnose a problem, you're lost.

I believe it is the SOP. But, it also seems like a really good idea - to contact the manufacturer who may be aware of similar issues in their product line.

As an aside, real experts rarely brag about themselves. It's the weak ones who feel the need to brag and belittle others. Go figure.

8- Which brings me to the disturbing part... The mention of warranty coverage. IF this engine gets warrantied by Yamaha or YES, it's INSURANCE FRAUD, plain and simple. That's not a laughing matter. You and I all pay for somebodies negligence. I'm not a fan of that.

That is a pretty outrageous statement to make in a public forum, baseless slander that's indeed not a laughing matter.

There are various scenarios possible here, for example if a crack developed due to water freezing in those "self draining" engines I would sure be on to Yamaha with regards to warranty coverage, needless to say it all depends on the actual findings, there is no bs here, everyone involved is upstanding. YDS does not lie, either.

9- Lastly, here's a quote from swatski from the thread where I cautioned against Riva's tuning without logging...
"The only way to know where the limits are is to go and break them. Then you know."
Yep, he found out the limits.

Limits of what?
Do we know the root cause?

I'm not going to get into any big battles on here. I explained my obnoxious comments. Take it or leave it, like me or hate me, it's all good. To those like Ronnie that appreciated the things I tried to share on here, THANKS! For those that hang out on internet forums to only gather post counts or sell merchandise, good luck with that. And for people that don't have good, kind, pure souls but instead do things that aren't honest, fair or right and hurt others in the process, Karma's a beeaatch. lol.

Thanks, strange comments, and I don't sell any merchandise. Up yours, gmtech.

--

 

[2kwik4u]

Yes, something that could contribute along with several other factors like running shallow long nonstop wake surfing sets while heavily ballasted platform under water, etc etc , and more things - all of which discussed earlier in the thread by me. Most of our surfing is on my river so that’s running on regular octane shitty gas and factory tune, on the other hand the RIVA tune, which by the way is not a racing tune, with no boost, no revving beyond the factory limit as verified by YDS, and designed to smooth out the throttle response curve, any little power gains due to timing advance meant to be in lieu of switching to premium/high octane fuel, actually no advance at WOT and no top speed or power gains there, per RIVA and MaptunerX team, this is not a DIY project or device.

Either way, I’m going to wait and see what the SCBM mechanic, Pat, finds. They have a list of things to look into, and Yamaha looking into this as well. If by chance it’s a head bolt cracks on the port engine similar to what @B_Mutter posted it is going to get interesting I guess.

At some point if I find out anything specific I’ll update the first post and/or start a new thread to keep the useful info streamlined free from vitriol.
Fingers crossed we can get to the bottom of it and learn something.

—

Agreed. The tune is a possibility, but I doubt the root cause in this case. I was mearly adding information for someone that asked how a tune could cause water intrusion.

In your case, I think you would have heard audible predetonation (knocking or pinging) and would have seen melted insulation around the exhaust if the tune was the culprit. While possible, it's doubtful here that the tune is the root cause.

Gmtech brings up some good points about not knowing the extent of the tune changes in terms of AFR and Ignition Advance without monitoring, however I really think other problems would have shown before now if the tune was to blame. You have too many hours on the tune for it to be that far away from center.

Using the wrong oil won't crack a head or lead to water intrusion. Oil doesn't work that way. We can debate additives and viscosity until we're old and gray, but you had oil in it, and even the "wrong oil" is still pretty damn close to factory spec. Not like you were running it on Karo syrup, or peanut oil.

My suspicion is a cracked head or cracked oil cooler. Those are the most common forms of water intrusion that I can find. I suspect some leftover water in the cooling system when you're on the lift and that to be the cause. You've had an overheat alarm from a frozen line before, so complete water drainage is a problem.

At any rate, I do sincerely hope it's fixed easily, quickly, and properly. With any luck Yamaha will cover the costs for you. If there is anyone on the board that Yamaha owes a favor...IMO...it's you.

*Edit* forgot to add my.thought about the Magnuson-Moss act applying to boats as well. Duty is on the manufacturer to show how an aftermarket parts or modification directly lead to the failure at hand. I think Yamaha would have a tough time proving the tune, the oil, or the insulation to be the root cause of failure.

 

[rkluck]

As mentioned above let stay on track for the tread. Whenever anyone posts crap I just ignore it. Just like with email when people are not face to face they are big and bad. This forum is very good so lets just stick to what everyone comes here for information and fun, don't take comments and retorts seriously just ignore them!

 

[swatski]

Gmtech brings up some good points about not knowing the extent of the tune changes in terms of AFR and Ignition Advance without monitoring...

Well, no. Not really.
I deliberately (and knowingly) chose a route of using generic, pre-fabed, tunes - designed to be used without the need for monitoring ECUs/engine performance parameters. The only requirement there is for the use of high octane/premium gas, 91+ octane. I purchased the MaptunerX system with it where I can change the program back to stock when I'm at home with the boat on the lift and running on my marina gas, low grade.
That SOB knows all that, he is just being deliberately misleading.

Using the wrong oil won't crack a head or lead to water intrusion. Oil doesn't work that way. We can debate additives and viscosity until we're old and gray, but you had oil in it, and even the "wrong oil" is still pretty damn close to factory spec. Not like you were running it on Karo syrup, or peanut oil.

Yes, arguing Amsoil oil is somehow to blame here would be extremely far fetched, to say the least.
Many would say it's superior but at the least the Amsoil Marine used is beyond adequate for the job in Yamaha engines.
To be exact, I followed a schedule in which the factory (Yamalube) oil was used during break-in period followed by the same in first two changes, then switching to amsoil, afterwards.

The gtech guy's comment appears to be deliberately misleading, he has identified himself as a troll.


--

 

[Brad460]

Any updates on the longest troubleshooting/repair in the history of the boating world?.....I literally check the site everyday for an update..

Wtf is going on?!

 

[Cambo]

....I literally check the site everyday for an update..

Wtf is going on?!

if you replied to the thread it should send out an automatic email . your post just landed in my email inbox I was hoping to read about what possibly caused this issue as well.

 

[Brad460]

if you replied to the thread it should send out an automatic email . your post just landed in my email inbox I was hoping to read about what possibly caused this issue as well.

Haha.. I am so serious I think about this every day..am I nuts?!