Another soundproofing thread... the RAAMat experience

[swatski]

@Mainah I love the idea. WOuld not worry about combustion. But would not cover the carpet, maybe UNDER the carpet.

I'm currently leaning towards pulling a "gmtech" - using large scraps of foam complemented with spray polyurethane. Not sure if I will do the water boxes as the opening in 240s is way smaller and I know from experience that reinstalling those (with extra padding) can be a giaagantic PIA.
If I love the foam pieces, down the road (when they start molding) I may consider replacing those by filling all the voids with polyurethane foam. But I'm not doing it right now as I may or may not be done with adding mods, so I don't want to block myself off.

@Mainah - since you are asking us to poke holes in the project plan - my only reservation/precaution would be with regards to that impending trip across the ocean. What usually happens on those trips, even in the smoothest of conditions, things get a bit rearranged and sorted out - some parts can break or move or get disconnected - so I would make sure you do not paint yourself into a corner with too much extra insulation, so to speak.
I know it is tempting to do everything while you have the boat "opened up"! But later this summer when you come back fro Bimini you will have all the installations sorted/verified - and then you can fix what needs to be fixed and seal it all up.
Anyway - just a thought.

Definitely watching your project(s) - so please please please keep posting!!!

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[adrianp89]

I would focus more on getting MLV in over foam.

 

[swatski]

https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com All you need to know, take these principles and apply to the boat.

Very helpful - good readin and everything helps.
BUT
While many techniques translate well from the automotive world to boats, many do not. For example, Dynamat/Hushmat style sound deadening does little when applied onto raw fiberglass as compared to the effects on sheath metal.

EDIT - MLV is not super useful in general in fiberglass boats. I've been very frustrated trying to understand it, and got a lot of disappointing results - for example, installed some 150+ lbs of Dynamat Extreme in my 190 and still couldn't say it was impressively deadened down. Was okay at best. The cost... ridiculous.

Well - I guess Dynamat is more of a CLD, not MLV though, so I shouldn't speak up!

^^^
Ninja Edits! LOL.
@adrianp89 that was funny.

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[adrianp89]

Very helpful - good readin and everything helps.
BUT
While many techniques translate well from the automotive world to boats, many do not. For example, Dynamat/Hushmat style sound deadening does little when applied onto raw fiberglass as compared to the effects on sheath metal.

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Agreed completely. This is why I think the MLV would make the biggest differences. It is really the deal breaker for cars in regards to road noise. The peel and stick stuff is great to help decrease resonating panels, but do little to help actual exterior noise. The CCF (ensolite) is really more of a decoupler between barriers than a sound deadener. With that being said, MLV is heavy and expensive.

 

[adrianp89]

Very helpful - good readin and everything helps.
BUT
While many techniques translate well from the automotive world to boats, many do not. For example, Dynamat/Hushmat style sound deadening does little when applied onto raw fiberglass as compared to the effects on sheath metal.

EDIT - MLV is not super useful in general in fiberglass boats. I've been very frustrated trying to understand it, and got a lot of disappointing results - for example, installed some 150+ lbs of Dynamat Extreme in my 190 and still couldn't say it was impressively deadened down. Was okay at best. The cost... ridiculous.

Well - I guess Dynamat is more of a CLD, not MLV though, so I shouldn't speak up!

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I missed your ninja edit...

and almost missed the second!

Yes Dynamat offers CLD and CCF, no MLV as far as I know. MLV is thick heavy vinyl (mass-loaded vinyl).

 

[adrianp89]

From SDS about MLV:

Block Sound

Mass loaded vinyl reduces noise levels more than any other material we use. It blocks sound. It weighs 1 pound per square foot, is 1/8" thick and comes on a 54" wide roll. It is limp so its natural resonant frequency is below the audible range. It can be a little tricky to work with, but we'll show you exactly ow to do it.

Barriers should not be in direct contact with any hard surface -, sheet metal or trim panel. We use 1/8" Closed Cell Foam (CCF) to decouple or separate Mass Loaded Vinyl from the vehicle.

For a full vehicle treatment you will cover 100% of the interior surface of the vehicle's outer shell below the glass - floor, doors, cargo area/trunk floor, quarter panels, pickup and roadster back walls, van walls, etc. There will need to be some breaks in coverage for the vehicle to function and go back together. You want those gaps to be as small as possible.

If you are targeting a single noise and entry point, exhaust noise through the trunk floor for example, MLV and CCF are the primary materials you will use, You want to get as close as possible to fully blocking the path of the noise you are trying to reduce.

Sound Deadener Showdown's Mass Loaded Vinyl is OEM quality, very flexible and has no offensive odor.

If you have the money to spend.. I say give this a shot!

 

[Mainah]

So I have been doing more research. The white papers on the stuff I am looking to use is good up to 212 degrees F. @gmtech16450yz was nice enough to post his engine temp readings from his custom mods and even at wot for 30mins about 150 degrees. Take into account the water boxes are actually cooler and that the resonators have plastic shells and I sure am fine to use on the water boxes.

A few quick google searches turned up a reaounding yes to this stuff reducing noise from vibration. Not as good as the MLV and CLV approach but it works and I can cover a lot
More area in a lot less time for a lot less $.

@swatski makes a good point about stuff needing fixed later on. I will have to carefully consider what I tape off and how much product I catalyze at once so I can get the tape off before curing. That said I when I do install things I tend to do a good job. I will remove the carpet on the surfaces I want this stuff on and decide wether or not to reinstall when done.

I am leaning towards yes if for no other reason it can’t hurt from what I can see at this point but will hold out for others to reply. I can always do mlv and/or clf on top of this stuff too but hoping won’t have to.

 

[adrianp89]

I eagerly await your results, I would love to reduce the noise even further in mine.

 

[swatski]

So I have been doing more research. The white papers on the stuff I am looking to use is good up to 212 degrees F. @gmtech16450yz was nice enough to post his engine temp readings from his custom mods and even at wot for 30mins about 150 degrees. Take into account the water boxes are actually cooler and that the resonators have plastic shells and I sure am fine to use on the water boxes.

A few quick google searches turned up a reaounding yes to this stuff reducing noise from vibration. Not as good as the MLV and CLV approach but it works and I can cover a lot
More area in a lot less time for a lot less $.

@swatski makes a good point about stuff needing fixed later on. I will have to carefully consider what I tape off and how much product I catalyze at once so I can get the tape off before curing. That said I when I do install things I tend to do a good job. I will remove the carpet on the surfaces I want this stuff on and decide wether or not to reinstall when done.

I am leaning towards yes if for no other reason it can’t hurt from what I can see at this point but will hold out for others to reply. I can always do mlv and/or clf on top of this stuff too but hoping won’t have to.

This could be good. Really good. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with!

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[Mainah]

It will be a few weeks at least. I am waiting to have all parts in hand as everthing will be opened up and I have a lot of wire and plumbing to pull. There is one part that has an unknown date and I will be the first one in the US to have that model. I was told one to two weeks. Yes a teaser as I promised not to say more until general availability. To be honest just a slicker version of something that already exists.

 

[swatski]

From SDS about MLV:



If you have the money to spend.. I say give this a shot!

Man - now I want that hydrophobic Melamine foam! - treated to repel water etc.
That seems like the best option for stuffing the voids.
It is expensive, but it may last if it really is hydrophobic and won't get wet.
Sure, I can find "melamine foam" much cheaper, but no guarantee of quality and certainly not water repellent.
This guy you linked has very good prices on other items overall. So I think I may go with that.

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[Jgorm]

You're not going to deaden vibration by adding truck bed liner to fiberglass

 

[Mainah]

You're not going to deaden vibration by adding truck bed liner to fiberglass

Thanks for giving me pause. Please enlighten me. The automotive crowd swears this reduces vibration and noise but of course that is on sheet metal. Why is fiberglass going to make a difference? What am I missing or don’t know? Thanks in advance.

 

[adrianp89]

Thanks for giving me pause. Please enlighten me. The automotive crowd swears this reduces vibration and noise but of course that is on sheet metal. Why is fiberglass going to make a difference? What am I missing or don’t know? Thanks in advance.

I must have missed the part where you were going to use the spray stuff. I have never been a fan, and I haven't seen it used much lately. I definitely do not see it used in high-end installs.

 

[Mainah]

I must have missed the part where you were going to use the spray stuff. I have never been a fan, and I haven't seen it used much lately. I definitely do not see it used in high-end installs.

I am considering using u-pol raptor which is a spray on two part room temp urethane. My thinking is that application will be far easier with this and I will be able to get really good coverage into tight areas. If it won’t work or won’t work very well then I want to go another way.

 

[swatski]

You're not going to deaden vibration by adding truck bed liner to fiberglass

I can say that's been my experience with Dynamat Extreme on raw fiberglass, it helps, but not huge amount. NO comparison to what it does to sheet metal - where it works to deaden vibration like crazy. Probably just the ratio between the mass/thickness of fiberglass or sheet metal vs dynamat (or bedliner)?

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[adrianp89]

I think it has to do with how sheet metal resonates and how flexible it is compared to fiberglass (in their respective use cases)

 

[Jgorm]

I can say that's been my experience with Dynamat Extreme on raw fiberglass, it helps, but not huge amount. NO comparison to what it does to sheet metal - where it works to deaden vibration like crazy. Probably just the ratio between the mass/thickness of fiberglass or sheet metal vs dynamat (or bedliner)?

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Yup. It's mass dampening. On sheet metal you probably double the mass, but fiberglass is probably more like 20%.

 

[Sebastian]

@swatski I've been reading quite a bit and found some different opinions.

I have an 2012 AR190
Seems like they are a little different to the 230s, having plywood with carpet on the sides of the engine compartment vs. fiberglass enclosed engine area. Also, there is a gap between the plywood on the top and the fiberglass.
My question is, do you still expect benefit of adding sound deadening material like you did to the engine bay. I assume I would have to take the carpet off for that.
Because of easier access, I thought it would be easier to start from the storage compartments and insulate the outside of the engine compartment and the gap on top. Also, the front and rear of the engine compartment on the inside as well as the hatch. And for sure the tank cover and the ski locker.

Any thoughts.

Also, any of you guys heard of Noico? Seems similar to the Raamat and ensolite applications.

https://www.amazon.com/Noico-deadening-automotive-Insulation-dampening/dp/B00URUIKAK/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1522636749&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=noico&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Noico-waterproof-insulation-Self-adhesive-Deadening/dp/B075F74ZGZ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1522636749&sr=8-8&keywords=noico

 

[swatski]

I would check see what @gmtech16450yz did - he and @Mainah both used a lot of foam sealing and filling up dead space in compartments and gaps. That will be my next step, goin gall the way up the bow.
I'll try to find and post links, @gmtech16450yz posts are all over the place...

I'm in the process of sorting through various foam slabs that come inside a gazzilion packages we send and receive at my work (I'm a medical director of a large clinical diagnostic lab) - my techs think I've gone mad - but I may be onto something. I'm going to fill all the dead spaces inside the hull and under the hull cap. My plan is to use foam slabs/sheets to fill all the dead spaces that I can reach, then fill the gaps with expandable polyurethane foam. I do not want to permanently embed wires and conduits, so all that needs to be semi-removable.

I'll post pics when done. I'm bracing myself. I wanted to do it over the last holiday weekend but this happened:


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