EV discussion - hate or love?

[Bluewater272]

gross profit, still expected to lose billions this year. Still the right direction I guess, lol.

 

[2kwik4u]

gross profit, still expected to lose billions this year. Still the right direction I guess, lol.

Yeap, better than a gross loss. SEG&A is hard to control on a startup. Especially a manufacturing based startup. Have to balance losses against cash reserves and expand at just the right pace. Shits hard, especially at that scale. Probably why there aren't more automotive startups that make it.

 

[BlkGS]

It's just above freezing usually. Mid-high 30's usually. Really cold nights (0-10 outside) will see it dip into the teens and twenties. So, yea, it's cold out there. Have the back wall, ceiling, and half a side wall insulated as part of the habitable envelope. Garage door, floor, left wall, and half of right wall aren't insulated. Keeps the wind and water out, but does very little for heat.

Lots of people insulate the garage door and put small space heaters in to keep it in the 40's in the garage. We almost bought a house a month ago, big selling points where a heated floor and full insulation in the garage. Guy said it kept it in the 60's on even the closest days. Also had a drain, hot and cold water hose bins, and a small 4post lift with a try ceiling. We lost a bidding war, but were close.

I guess I never recognized how much benefit I got from my house in NC having the garage like 3/4 underground. The house was cut into the side of a hill, so I guess all that ground worked well as insulation, even when it was near zero outside, even with cheapo garage doors it never got below freezing in the garage.

Side note, Nikola went bust. That's another EV startups to fail.

 

[2kwik4u]

I guess I never recognized how much benefit I got from my house in NC having the garage like 3/4 underground. The house was cut into the side of a hill, so I guess all that ground worked well as insulation, even when it was near zero outside, even with cheapo garage doors it never got below freezing in the garage.

Side note, Nikola went bust. That's another EV startups to fail.

Interesting article from 2018. Just a short 6.5yrs ago.

18 Automotive Startups and Their Chances of Survival

Who's going to be the next Tesla? It might be one of these companies. But probably not.

www.caranddriver.com

I think Waymo, and Lucid are the only ones on the list that made it this far relatively unchanged. Interesting that Nikola and Rivian aren't mentioned. Some others that have come and gone like Canoo aren't mentioned either.

Another interesting thought. When was the last ICE based vehicle startup that succeeded at some level? Delorean? There's been some new brands, like RAM spinning off from Dodge, but I can't remember a genuinely new company since Delorean. Maybe Ineos with the Grenadier, but they're an oil and gas company that decided to make cars. Huge pockets there, so I'm not sure that counts as a startup.

 

[BlkGS]

Smart probably, maybe Pagani? Or one of those small niche companies. But car brands typically don't do "startup", it's easier to buy the assets/name of a dead ICE brand and fo that route.

Does Genesis count?

 

[2kwik4u]

Smart probably, maybe Pagani? Or one of those small niche companies. But car brands typically don't do "startup", it's easier to buy the assets/name of a dead ICE brand and fo that route.

Does Genesis count?

Pagani might be. The others are just "brand engineering" mostly. Genesis is a Hyundai that broke out on their own; kind of like RAM, but with crossover between brands.

Kind of my point though. The general premise of making a "new" car company from thin air has been riddled with more failures than successes. That's not an EV thing, but an automotive industry thing.

 

[2kwik4u]

While not directly related.....by kind of EV adjacent. I signed up to go offroading in a month or so.

Northeast Rivian Club – NERC Spring 2025 Off-Roading event – Northeast Rivian Club The Northeast Rivian Club does this a few times a year. No idea if others have signed up yet or not, but I'm in. Get to have an off road coach drive you around and give some basic instructions. This place does the coaching. offroad-consulting.com

Plan is to drive down Thursday, off-road/socialize Fri/Sat, then drive home Sun. Truck can make it there on a single charge, but will need to charge before going out on the trails, then again before coming home. We got a hotel in Bloomberg, PA that has a charger, and there is both a Tesla SC as well as an EA station there in town. Shouldn't be an issue with both stations having high scores on Plugshare.

Figured the truck came with the all terrain package, might as well see if it's all it's cracked up to be. Again, being EV adjacent to the post here, I do think there are only a handful of EV's that could do this. Rivian, and the Hummer. Not sure I would want to do this with a G-Wagon EV, but I would guess it's at least somewhat capable here.

 

[BlkGS]

Pagani might be. The others are just "brand engineering" mostly. Genesis is a Hyundai that broke out on their own; kind of like RAM, but with crossover between brands.

Kind of my point though. The general premise of making a "new" car company from thin air has been riddled with more failures than successes. That's not an EV thing, but an automotive industry thing.

It's also probably a lot harder to develop and break into the ICE market, especially in the US, than it is the EV or any other market. The red tape you have to go through from a emissions or crash testing perspective is huge and expensive. Then you have to build a franchise dealer network, eat warranty costs, and convince people to buy you new car vs the established brands. Look at the failure of Alfa and Fiat in the US, these were both known existing brands and they couldn't pierce the market here.

It's way easier and more lucrative to startup a company doing something else, anything else just about. Baby food is probably the only thing regulated tighter than ICE cars.

 

[BlkGS]

While not directly related.....by kind of EV adjacent. I signed up to go offroading in a month or so.

Northeast Rivian Club – NERC Spring 2025 Off-Roading event – Northeast Rivian Club The Northeast Rivian Club does this a few times a year. No idea if others have signed up yet or not, but I'm in. Get to have an off road coach drive you around and give some basic instructions. This place does the coaching. offroad-consulting.com

Plan is to drive down Thursday, off-road/socialize Fri/Sat, then drive home Sun. Truck can make it there on a single charge, but will need to charge before going out on the trails, then again before coming home. We got a hotel in Bloomberg, PA that has a charger, and there is both a Tesla SC as well as an EA station there in town. Shouldn't be an issue with both stations having high scores on Plugshare.

Figured the truck came with the all terrain package, might as well see if it's all it's cracked up to be. Again, being EV adjacent to the post here, I do think there are only a handful of EV's that could do this. Rivian, and the Hummer. Not sure I would want to do this with a G-Wagon EV, but I would guess it's at least somewhat capable here.

Is there a G-Wagen EV? That's kind of silly.

Speaking of silly, every time I drove by our GMC dealer they have a crapload of Hummer EVs sitting around for sale. They're kinda neat looking. It's a damn shame the Silverado RST doesn't have their crazy 1000hp motor setup, they missed out there big time. Maybe they're just saving it for an SS model? Would think you'd want to announce that though so people don't write the truck off.

 

[2kwik4u]

It's also probably a lot harder to develop and break into the ICE market, especially in the US, than it is the EV or any other market. The red tape you have to go through from a emissions or crash testing perspective is huge and expensive. Then you have to build a franchise dealer network, eat warranty costs, and convince people to buy you new car vs the established brands. Look at the failure of Alfa and Fiat in the US, these were both known existing brands and they couldn't pierce the market here.

It's way easier and more lucrative to startup a company doing something else, anything else just about. Baby food is probably the only thing regulated tighter than ICE cars.

THe only thing there that EV's don't have to deal with is emissions. Otherwise all the other crap is supposed to exist as well.

Tesla and Rivian just skip the dealer network and don't sell in states that require it.

I do agree that it's all a monumental challenge though.

 

[2kwik4u]

Is there a G-Wagen EV? That's kind of silly.

Speaking of silly, every time I drove by our GMC dealer they have a crapload of Hummer EVs sitting around for sale. They're kinda neat looking. It's a damn shame the Silverado RST doesn't have their crazy 1000hp motor setup, they missed out there big time. Maybe they're just saving it for an SS model? Would think you'd want to announce that though so people don't write the truck off.

We're niche buyers that want an SS pickup truck. They've never been sales leaders, just "neat" models for a few of us.

yea, EV G-Wagon exists. Does tank turns.

 

[BlkGS]

We're niche buyers that want an SS pickup truck. They've never been sales leaders, just "neat" models for a few of us.

yea, EV G-Wagon exists. Does tank turns.

Agreed, but the same could be said for any of these off-road EVs.

Tank turns. That's a new level of useless gimmick, lol. Mercedes I think was the first one to give us the LED light badge though, so I shouldn't be surprised. Probably fun still.

 

[2kwik4u]

Well......The Rivian saga continues.

Had a nice appointment with the mobile service team today. They proactively replaced the 12V battery as part of a service campaign, and investigated the vents not working as intended. Everything seemed great, they had a plan to fix the vents, 12V repair went well I was told, and it was a pretty easy visit.

Until I went to drive to dinner and the truck won't shift into any gear. Drive modes are unresponsive. Stereo no longer works (plays tracks, but no sound). Steering wheel buttons are unresponsive. Called service. They reset OTA, then I reset twice more, and then a hard reset twice. No change. Mobile service is scheduled back on Friday, but they're working in the AM to see if they can get it resolved sooner. Currently they think the OTA wasn't complete before the 12V battery was pulled and it's borked a control module. Really feel like a "test drive" should be a thing that is done before the truck is considered complete.

Gotta admit, at this point I'm pretty flustered with the ownership experience. When it's great, it's awesome. When it's not it's infuriating. This was supposed to be MORE reliable than the Q7 I traded in. Q7 never left me walking, and spent less time in the shop over 3.5yrs than the Rivian has in ~6mo.

 

[BlkGS]

Well that's annoying. Are they going to get you a loaner until then, or you're just left to figure it out on your own?

The more I see, the more I'm convinced there has been a steep drop in vehicle reliability since like 2015. Even stuff that was supposed to be reliable like fullsize trucks aren't as reliable as they used to be.

I also think that OTA updates were the worst thing that has ever happened to cars. It makes cars have the same attitude towards software as everyone else where "as long as it's good enough to release we can patch it and fix it later". It's annoying when something on your phone is wonky. It's a show stopper when it's your car.

 

[Bluewater272]

Silly blanket statement about OTAs. OTAs are fantastic when implemented well, not so much when not or when the tech yoinks the battery out mid-update. I've probably had two dozen of them or more, all of them install while I sleep, and never an issue the next day. Most are invisible, but some come with very obvious feature additions or QoL improvements. It's fan-fuckin-tastic, sure beats dragging it back to the dealer to update your nav, no?

 

[2kwik4u]

Silly blanket statement about OTAs. OTAs are fantastic when implemented well, not so much when not or when the tech yoinks the battery out mid-update. I've probably had two dozen of them or more, all of them install while I sleep, and never an issue the next day. Most are invisible, but some come with very obvious feature additions or QoL improvements. It's fan-fuckin-tastic, sure beats dragging it back to the dealer to update your nav, no?

I'm going to go with a hard disagree here.

I used to hate constant updates on software. Things like office, or android, or any other software really, I would turn them off as soon as I got them. I bought a feature set, look, and feel. I want to keep that. I don't want the constant change. Rivian has already had a couple updates, and for the most part have been little or no value add. This update was to allow the changing of tires sizes by the user, and to enable the mirrors to turn down in reverse. Truck didn't have those features when I bought it. I don't want them, didn't ask for them, and now have to risk issues with the implementation for it. While they usually are not a problem, they're clearly a risk, and for me, they aren't worth it.

I also agree with @BlkGS it sets the mentality of Minimum Viable Product. If you're to argue that there are "critical security and software updates" baked into the OTA, the obvious counterpoint is "why didn't they do it right the first time". I get that new tech comes along that might pose security issues, and you CAN patch for that, but send me a USB stick in the mail, or hell, put the instructions online, let me download, and let me run a physical update on it. The rest of this "We can add features along the way" just begs the question of why wasn't this feature important the first time, and does the customer really want it, and what risks are they exposing along the way.

OTA updates have been a nuisance before I had the truck, and they continue to be a nuisance now that my truck gets them.

 

[2kwik4u]

Well that's annoying. Are they going to get you a loaner until then, or you're just left to figure it out on your own?

It got worse last night. I went out around 8 and tried to wake the truck to see if the sleep/wake cycle might have reset something. Because, you know software based anything will sometimes clear with a "plug/unplug" cycle. Truck is now completely bricked. Won't respond to app/fob/card. Can't even unlock the damn thing because there is no physical key to be used. What's even more fun......I saw my wallet sitting on the console. FORK!

SO I called Rivian again. After about 10min they agreed, truck is bricked. Said they would develop a plan and call me back. 30min later I get a call back. They sent a tow truck out to unlock the Rivian. Used the old airbag in the door and long metal rod to pull the handle routine. Got me in and to the wallet. Really hoping the door wasn't bent and leaks like a sieve now. Have to be able to drive it to test though, and clearly I'm not doing that.

To answer the question though, they setup another mobile service over the phone for Friday morning, with a promise to actively work to find a solution faster. They offered Uber ride credits to get me to work and back this morning, which I declined because Uber doesn't really go to Silver Creek, NY. The confirmed last night if they can't get it resolved today, they would either get me a loaner from the fleet, or put me in a rental until the truck was drivable again. They are holding true to word, as Rivian has already, proactively, reached out to me this morning about getting it resolved. Mobile tech that was there yesterday has an opening this afternoon and is going to swing by and see if he can diagnose and repair. At least they have that proactive customer service thing going for them at this point. Every single person I've talked to has been well spoken, addressed my frustration, and apologized. They've also all worked diligently and quickly to resolve the issues, escalating and not complaining the whole way. SO, while this sucks and shouldn't happen on a $85k truck, it's hands down the BEST customer service I've gotten from a company in years. At least they have that going for them.

At this point I'm going to go on a little rant, bear with me. WTF does everything have to be electronic. It's neat, but there's far more sizzle than steak here. Case in point, I can't get to my office keys in the console because the latch is electronic. Why in the exact fork does that need to be electric at any level? You can't tell me there is some mystical reason that they're going to do something cool or useful with that. It's over complication for the sake of it, and no real value add. Same with the trunk release, bed latch, and gear tunnel latches. It's an overly complex system for no real value add that I can find. Party tricks are neat until stuff breaks. Maybe I'm turning into a luddite at some level, maybe I just have enough other crap to manage that I just want my truck to work, and something manual is a more robust and reliable solution for me. I don't know where I'm at here, but it's agitating as shit currently.

I'm currently feeling (and this is subject to rapid and unpredictable change), that when the Rivian lease is over I'm going to buy a land cruiser and just accept that boring transportation is reliable transportation. This is shored up with the relatively nice commute I had this morning in my wifes '18 Rogue that is about as boring of a drive as you can get, but has an opening sunroof and cruise control, and got me to the office just fine and in reasonable comfort.

 

[BigN8]

I've had completely different experiences with new vehicles, and this feels like less of an issue than any of the others I've had. Either you're the luckiest person in the world, or I'm the pickiest person in the world.

MY Brand new Focus had these problems. Broken interior door trim pieces. Failed engine sensors. Broken sunroof. It was a mess when I bought it with 50miles on it. Ford dealership was a giant PIA to work with, and I'll never buy another one because of it. My GMC and my Audi were both bought used and had similar issues. Hell, I called the Audi the Zero Fucks Given Q7 because of the piss poor condition it was in when I bought it.

My GMC was pretty solid, but still had issues. A/C went out at 65k miles. I had a laundry list of things so long that they had to send a warranty adjuster out because they thought the dealership was being fraudulent in submitting that many claims on one vehicle at the same time.

I really don't find the Rivian issues to be that big of a deal. Especially considering how they've dealt with them. I get fast, proactive responses, and they've yet to fight me on anything. If I wanted them to make it perfect they would. The tech even mentioned that they would send mobile service out if I wanted them to. While I see the point that the problem shouldn't be there to begin with, find me another brand that has an entire mobile service fleet.

I should be REALLY REALLY clear here. The fighting that I'm over, is the scheduling. Not fighting to get things right. I've had exactly 4 weeks this year where all 4 of my family members have been in the house for more than 5 consecutive days. It's my problem of fighting schedule, not Rivians. If I schedule service again, I have to take time away from the family and the office to get it done. I just want some damn consistency in my life, and a slight pull to the left, or a rattle that happens once a week isn't worth the effort to report/schedule/deal with on my end. It's just not that big of a deal. I applaud anyone that has the time/bandwidth to "turn that thing in for a complete refund and find something else", but that just isn't me.

Sounds like your tune has changed quite a bit since Dec 4, 2024. New Nissan Rogue here we come!!

Regarding the last post about everything becoming electronic I agree whole heartedly. Case in point the last washer / dryer combo I bought I told the floor sales guy at Lowe's I want the most reliable dumbest set you have. I want dials not buttons. I want to pick the water level not have the machine auto fill, I mean I want the elementary version not the Phd version.

While I'm not 100% sold on 100% EV transportation yet, I do think there is a place for the plug in hybrid. Because of the Volvo Employee Lease program we are on we have already ordered the new XC 90 and I went with the hybrid again. If they could get the range to 50-60 miles it would be the perfect vehicle. Right now it's perfect for us because the range is 32 miles and my wife's office is about 20 miles. Since May 31, 2024 we have put 4 tanks of gas in it and we have 1/2 a tank left from the 4th fill up. The only draw back to a 32 mile range is if your running errands or it's a weekend date night running around town and you will eventually run out of battery. We could perhaps remedy this by learning how to locate and use mobile battery charges better, but we haven't really had the need to yet. We just run on gas, and if the gas gets low fill it up.

Volvo has a new EV lineup being sold now and I have watched the videos. The issue I see with them, and it seems like it's the same with most EV manufacturers is that when they decide to build a full EV car, they go all out with the electronics. Everything in the car becomes a computer, where as a hybrid or ICE vehicle maintain a certain level of manual switches and buttons. I can't figure this out, and the only thing I can think of is they are playing to the mood or attitude of the EV owner that wants a fully electronic experience. Even the moon roof on the new EV Volvo is electric, meaning you hit a button and the moon roof goes from translucent to a frosted out privacy glass electronically. Seems really cool, but also seems like it could mess up really easy and leave you with permanent frosted out or translucent.

Good luck with the Rivian.

 

[2kwik4u]

Sounds like your tune has changed quite a bit since Dec 4, 2024. New Nissan Rogue here we come!!

Regarding the last post about everything becoming electronic I agree whole heartedly. Case in point the last washer / dryer combo I bought I told the floor sales guy at Lowe's I want the most reliable dumbest set you have. I want dials not buttons. I want to pick the water level not have the machine auto fill, I mean I want the elementary version not the Phd version.

Yea, I'm flustered now. I'm not sure I'll ever "LOVE" the Rivian, but I tend to go through this cycle where I hate whatever new I get for 9-12mo, then realize it's not so bad, then really like it when it's time to part ways with it. The Q7 had this cycle in spades. I was pissed at that thing quite often, but am really missing it right now.

I love the Elementary vs PhD version. I'm starting to feel that's where I need to be with cars. Wonder if the guy I sold the Silverado to will sell it back to me now?

 

[2kwik4u]

Well, it was a 12V battery issue it appears. Tech just left the house. Here's his response:

Looks like the main battery stopped supporting the new battery randomly. This is due to a calibration not completed after replacement of the battery. I replaced the battery performed the proper calibrations let vehicle sleep then tried again. All seems to be working normally now!

Again, $85k truck shouldn't have this problem at 10k miles, but I can't complain about how it was handled or resolved.

I'll report back after I drive it tonight.