Multiple Questions on 2017 AR190

[swatski]

For me, the problem wasn't/isn't really on holeshot. The boat has plenty of thrust to yank the rope from my hands on a deep water wakeboard start even with 4 other adults aboard. The bigger problem is some wonky side loading when pulling the kids on a tube. Trying to get the tube to cross over the wake requires turning and adding throttle, pulling the rope tight and inline with primary axis of the boat, leading to the tube hopping outside the wake. When in a turn, and adding throttle, the engine will rev and produce no additional thrust. Which is agitating for me as a driver and no fun for the riders either. The hope for me is that "traction" when turning and applying throttle is improved.

I'll keep everyone posted on progress.

Well, the l13 will help with pump loading. Another mod to help pump loading (and - this one is free - just labor) is the intake grate mod that @gmtech16450yz published. I have done that and believe it works very well.

And - not to start any nonsense but - I would think adding cobra ultimates would be a huge help. From experience, in my 190, the ultimates made a dramatic difference in towing (and curving).

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[2kwik4u]

Well, the l13 will help with pump loading. Another mod to help pump loading (and - this one is free - just labor) is the intake grate mod that @gmtech16450yz published. I have done that and believe it works very well.

And - not to start any nonsense but - I would think adding cobra ultimates would be a huge help. From experience, in my 190, the ultimates made a dramatic difference in towing (and curving).

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Definitely avoiding the nonsense....that other thread was a dumpster fire of a train wreck for certain

I've considered some fins, but it's not turning control that I need, it's additional thrust to accelerate. I might consider some as a trial, but don't want to spend the cash on them right away. Boat already has a keel on it, and I enjoy the tiny draft when "backed in" to the shore. My understanding of the fins (regardless of vendor) is to improve tracking when turning, and to address some low speed wander issues. Neither of those are problems for me. Do they do anything to help with acceleration in mid corner?

I can't do the intake grate mod on mine. The 190s already have the crossbar removed, so there is nothing to improve on. I'll go check his thread to make sure I'm thinking about the same thing.

Went and found the post. I even posted in it
https://jetboaters.net/threads/pump-intake-grates-thinking-of-trying-something-taboo.15594/page-2

 

[swatski]

Do they do anything to help with acceleration in mid corner?

Yep, that's exactly why I'm convinced you would be hooked. The boat will lean into the turn a bit different and come out of it like it is on rails, it does not loose as much speed. It is remarkable.

I believe you can get those from a certain vendor here - and return if you don't like what you see, minus shipping.

I enjoy the tiny draft when "backed in" to the shore

The "rudder" (articulating keel) is lower, that's been covered, too.

I can't do the intake grate mod on mine.

I know, was thinking you could just do the profile/sharpening part with those, but I would not think this would make a huge difference, maybe a little incremental help.

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[2kwik4u]

Yep, that's exactly why I'm convinced you would be hooked. The boat will lean into the turn a bit different and come out of it like it is on rails, it does not loose as much speed. It is remarkable.

I believe you can get those from a certain vendor here - and return if you don't like what you see, minus shipping. --

I'll have to look into which of those does the "return if you don't like them" scenario.

The "rudder" (articulating keel) is lower, that's been covered, too.

On duals I think this is correct. On a single not so much......See video here about 30sec in. Fins look lower than keel/rudder to me. Might be perspective? Also, aren't these out of the water on plane? How does that help with turning? Just thrust direction right? If so, then I still have to have thrust to turn, leading back to problem #1.

I just re-read that. I don't intend to sound argumentative, although that's the way it's coming across. Just trying to wrap my head around the situation, and what will be a real benefit vs additional complexity with a lighter wallet.

I know, was thinking you could just do the profile/sharpening part with those, but I would not think this would make a huge difference, maybe a little incremental help.

I think we're on the side of diminishing returns there. Most likely though I think a good seal job on the pump might help some. I know you've touted that as being something every jet should have done after any form of maintenance. I haven't done that on mine yet.

Ultimately, I'm gonna toss the L13 on there and see where that gets me. I suspect if I can simply maintain/slightly increase thrust through the corner, then I'll be in fine shape.

Might take a day this week with a buddy and go do some testing on the water to get some "before" videos for reference. Depends on weather.

 

[swatski]

Also, aren't these out of the water on plane? How does that help with turning? Just thrust direction right? If so, then I still have to have thrust to turn, leading back to problem #1.

Mine were setup for "down at speed"/all the time. Huge difference in how the boat would turn at speed and the stern would feel "planted".
(and trust me, I wouldn't be wading into this horse poop trap here if I wasn't positive this would help you, lol)


If I remember correctly the ultimates have a lot of adjustments and can be tied up, etc.


I believe that vendor gives you 30 day return, I'm sure you can figure that out.

I think you may be right about the single vs double with the rudder, mine was a pre-AK.

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[2kwik4u]

Thanks for wading in. I'll give the fins another consideration. My gut tells me I don't want them. Lots of folks say they help, and lots of empirical evidence say they help. Similar feeling in my head of the you "have to get a 21ft boat or you'll be cramped" rhetoric we hear around here a lot.

Going to call the dealership on Monday to get some grease. Got an email from GreenHulk (PWC Store?!?!) that my items are on backorder and will be at least 3 business days before they ship. No big deal really, gives me time to get grease

 

[2kwik4u]

Still haven't called the dealership. I'm blaming it on being at day 7 of a new job, and having a 29 day old baby. I've been just a little busy

The L13 Cone showed up yesterday. Hoping to get it installed Friday night and do some testing on Saturday. First mod to the boat taking place exactly 1 year (to the day) after delivery

 

[AboveTheBest]

This is the grease you need:

https://www.shopyamaha.com/product/details/epnoc-jet-pump-grease?b=Search&nw=yamaha-motor-company

I'm in Indiana too, and it took about 3 days to show up in the mailbox from this store.
If you're ever in the Bloomington area let me know and I'll let you drive my boat with the CJS Viper steering, I think you'll be impressed with the cornering and tracking, and I think it loses less speed in the turns now (although I can't verify this). I switched from the other brand and have been very impressed with the results.

You'll love the cone, and congrats on the new baby.

 

[2kwik4u]

Looks like it's not available online. Hope they have some in Stock at the Louisville Dealership.



Thanks for the ride offer and the congrats. If I ever make it up that way I'll look you up. We spend a bunch of time on Patoka which is out near French Lick. Lots of friends there and we're out most weekends in the summer.

 

[AboveTheBest]

@2kwik4u,

PM me your address and I’ll mail you the half bottle I have left from my cone swap.
With any luck you’ll have it by Saturday afternoon.

 

[2kwik4u]

Was just about to ask how much I needed.

Pm headed your way!

 

[2kwik4u]

Many thanks to @AboveTheBest for sending some grease my way. Tracking shows it will arrive tomorrow. If that holds true I'll be loaded up and ready to head out when it arrives. Have a friend going with me, and the rest of the family is out of town at relatives house. SOOOOO.....that means I have the time and the means to get some before/after empirical testing done.

Here are the parameters I intend to measure before and after. Some are subjective, some are objective.

0-30 time
Perceived cavitation at launch (GoPro video)
Perceived cavitation under load while hard turn (GoPro Video)
Top Speed
RPM at top speed
RPM at 30mph
RPM at 18mph (skating speed)
Wakeskate deep water start launch cavitation and handle pull feel
wakeskate steady state cavitation and handle pull feel (I expect zero difference here)
General notes on feel and observations

Anyone have anything else they might want me to add? Anything else of interest in there that I'm missing? @swatski any thoughts?

If I have time/effort left in me then we might mess with spacers as well, might also delete the ribbon while on the water for some before/after testing with that as well. Have to see how the day goes to be honest.

 

[swatski]

Many thanks to @AboveTheBest for sending some grease my way. Tracking shows it will arrive tomorrow. If that holds true I'll be loaded up and ready to head out when it arrives. Have a friend going with me, and the rest of the family is out of town at relatives house. SOOOOO.....that means I have the time and the means to get some before/after empirical testing done.

Here are the parameters I intend to measure before and after. Some are subjective, some are objective.

0-30 time
Perceived cavitation at launch (GoPro video)
Perceived cavitation under load while hard turn (GoPro Video)
Top Speed
RPM at top speed
RPM at 30mph
RPM at 18mph (skating speed)
Wakeskate deep water start launch cavitation and handle pull feel
wakeskate steady state cavitation and handle pull feel (I expect zero difference here)
General notes on feel and observations

Anyone have anything else they might want me to add? Anything else of interest in there that I'm missing? @swatski any thoughts?

If I have time/effort left in me then we might mess with spacers as well, might also delete the ribbon while on the water for some before/after testing with that as well. Have to see how the day goes to be honest.

Sounds good, keep us posted!

The best measure of "cavitation/ventilation" in my book is when you punch it hard - WOT from a standing start. The singles, stock, have some significant slippage from the get-go which should be alleviated with the cone, if everything else is "blue-printed".

The other scenario where you can readily "feel" the impeller slippage is when pulling a big wakeboarder/skier out of the water. Boy, can there be a big range! - from easy to ugly - depending on the setup/tuning of the pump. None of it is about power - the factory/stock engine delivers more than enough power. It is all about the impeller "traction" /pump loading!

The worst case is when the impeller spins out of control hitting the rev limiter and the boat goes nowhere. It feels like punching the gas pedal hard in a 2wd truck with empty bed on wet surface.


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[2kwik4u]

It was a cappy rainy day to be monkeying with the boat. I got a couple videos of before and after though with GPS speed overlay. Had the mic off though so you can't hear the engine noises. Had a GoPro running at the same time so might be able to hear a little when I get those videos.

Overall.....I'm not really impressed. Did zero help on my application of thrust in the turn. A really hard launch it cut down on the initial "spinning tires" effect, but I rarely hit the pump that hard on launch with a full crew anyway. I'll keep evaluating as the season wears on, but right now, it's not the silver bullet I thought it would be.

 

[AboveTheBest]

That’s unfortunate about the power loss in the turns. I would talk to @swatski about repitching your prop and if it would be worth the effort.

For me it was worth it to get the extra power on WOT from a stop, and the mod was completely motivated by deepwater slalom starts.

I’ll be interested to see your videos.

 

[swatski]

For me it was worth it to get the extra power on WOT from a stop, and the mod was completely motivated by deepwater slalom starts.

That was ME, too, with the single!
For me the L13 was amazing. Along with the Ultimates, those two mods solved two biggest issues with my 190 and made wakeboarding behind fun/possible again.

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[2kwik4u]

I've never started on a slalom from deep water, but only from a wakeskate (slightly smaller than a wakeboard), and have never had a problem. Lots more surface area compared to a single ski though. Everyone I have ever taught (even two with the AR) I've had to SLOW DOWN the application of throttle to keep from pulling the rope out of their hands. You guys must have forearms the size of tree limbs!

The big hope for me is that turning with a load while tubing is improved. On a very cool day (60deg air) and two lightweight passengers it doesn't appear to have amounted to a hill of beans difference. I'll be sure to report back when I can get a full weight crew of adults and kids, and then pull a tube on a hot day. There might be improvements here that I'm not seeing yet due to load case. I haven't completely written it off yet, but so far.....meh......I need more time with it to make a full assessment.

 

[AboveTheBest]

I've had to SLOW DOWN the application of throttle to keep from pulling the rope out of their hands. You guys must have forearms the size of tree limbs!

I do eats my spinach...

That and I wear a good pair of ski gloves.

 

[2kwik4u]

Got the two videos from my phone uploaded. No sound, I think I had the mic turned off for some reason or another. Still trying to get the GoPro videos. They just point out the back of the boat, but have sound.

Here is the before:

And the after

You can see in the second, aside from being wet, there are a few changes. The most noticeable change is a drop of about 4-500rpm or so as I hit the throttle hard. Otherwise acceleration and top speed are about the same. A little bit of testing on turns with throttle for cavitation is in one of the videos.

Had the boat out for a few hours yesterday. ZERO improvement while tubing. Had 4 adults and two small children aboard. 3 adults in the boat, an adult and child in the tube. Lean into a turn, give it some gas to pull the tube outside the wake and tons of cavitation and loss of thrust at anything more than about 75-80% throttle or ~6750rpm or so. Had to really work at it to get the tube outside the wake with just one kid and a small adult(not enough weight in the tube). Rode the wakeskate a bit as well. Deep water start is not noticeably different. Still enough power to pull the rope out of my hands if the wife hammers down to hard. Smooth progressive push on the throttle is the best approach as it was before...........Pretty disappointed in the $300 spent on this piece currently.

I'm going to try and crawl under the boat at some point soon and see if I have a pump sealing issue or something else going on.

 

[Astinus]

Best thing ever for tubing, kids hated tubing and I found it difficult playing with the throttle the whole time.

https://express.google.com/u/0/prod...campaign=gsx&dclid=CPDQofWVldsCFczCwAodtL4PQQ