Pulled over by coastguard

[Beachbummer]

I gave a very specific example of how an infringement of the ability to conduct searches creates threats of lawsuits which ties police hands, as they are currently facing an onslaught of those - wishing the same on the military is stupendously misinformed, in my view. Since you chose to ignore that specific point, and continue complaining, be my guest.

Frankly, I find your position to betray a degree of entitlement, not to be characterised further out of respect for the forum rules; I certainly hope those kinds of attitudes will not prevail and dictate what the USCG can or can not do.

--

Sorry I did not address your example because I felt it totally disconnected from the discussion. I agree with you it's deranged that observing someone use drugs in the car is not reason for a stop. I agree in that situation something illegal is being observed, thus a stop to enforce the law is the only logical conclusion. Military also have rules from the little that I know about it on engaging the enemy. The current laws allow CG to board anyone for any reason that's my very specific concern.

Perhaps what you perceive as a sense of entitlement I consider a desire to protect what I think is our right to not be subject to an unreasonable search, which I have always considered to include search without cause (not true to all, but I wish it were).

If entitlement means I think I ought to be left alone from random search/inspection without suspicion in the name of "safety" in my very small vessel that cannot cross the ocean, while in a lake or bay, Maybe I do feel entitled. Is that what you mean? Or that I value my time too highly to be bothered by a 5-10 minute stop by authority for not reason other than to investigate me when no crime or suspicion existed before the stop? because that is a true statement too.

Thank you for engaging in the conversation, happy to learn more about where we exactly disagree. I interpret that you think boaters should be thankful for the added protection of a strong CG and should not complain about being stopped randomly, (but instead be happy this is being done for their own good? or just accept as needed evil? this is where I am most interested in what you think) . Is this a fair description of your position?

 

[Ronnie]

I don’t think are are enough LEOs on the water generally. They never seem to be around when somebody on a jet ski wants to jump my boat’s wake while I’m towing someone or when someone is conducting a top speed run through a no wake zone that I’m anchored or docked in. At the same time I’m glad that when they are around, that even though they have the right to stop and inspect everyone on the water that they do not so so.

I understand that to some, maybe many, being subject to such broad authority sucks but if you are a recreational boater or any type of boater in the U.S. being subject to such laws is part of the cost / deal. This is the polite way of saying if you don’t like it don’t boat in the U.S., not my message just the summary of my interpretation. It the same as people who complain about the downsides of living in CA, nobody other than prisoners are forced to live here. Are laws more relaxed in other counties? I don’t know but I doubt it.

I also think that the OP is lucky he got a warning instead of a ticket from the CG. A ticket on the water is just like one on land, it’s reflected on your driving record and the fine can be hefty. As the saying goes, “ignorance of the law is no excuse for its breach”.

 

[fatboyroy]

I don’t think are are enough LEOs on the water generally. They never seem to be around when somebody on a jet ski wants to jump my boat’s wake while I’m towing someone or when someone is conducting a top speed run through a no wake zone that I’m anchored or docked in. At the same time I’m glad that when they are around, that even though they have the right to stop and inspect everyone on the water that they do not so so.

I understand that to some, maybe many, being subject to such broad authority sucks but if you are a recreational boater or any type of boater in the U.S. being subject to such laws is part of the cost / deal. This is the polite way of saying if you don’t like it don’t boat in the U.S., not my message just the summary of my interpretation. It the same as people who complain about the downsides of living in CA, nobody other than prisoners are forced to live here. Are laws more relaxed in other counties? I don’t know but I doubt it.

I also think that the OP is lucky he got a warning instead of a ticket from the CG. A ticket on the water is just like one on land, it’s reflected on your driving record and the fine can be hefty. As the saying goes, “ignorance of the law is no excuse for its breach”.

Yea I feel lucky but at the same time, i wasn't really flying fast and reckless. Also if you ever boated in Intercoastal waters, you could easily get lost specially when you do not have chartplotter. Signs are so far in between I've seen boat stranded a lot cause they thought the ICW is left but its actually right. I think CG is reasonable due to that, maybe on repeat offender they wouldn't hesitate to give a ticket. It was a learning and a pleasant experience for me.

 

[Beachbummer]

I understand that to some, maybe many, being subject to such broad authority sucks but if you are a recreational boater or any type of boater in the U.S. being subject to such laws is part of the cost / deal. This is the polite way of saying if you don’t like it don’t boat in the U.S.,

There is another alternative, you can work to influence the laws and try to effect change. I do recognize it is the current law, but I am surprised how strongly this "superpower" is supported by other boaters.
Thanks for your perspective.

 

[swatski]

There is another alternative, you can work to influence the laws and try to effect change. I do recognize it is the current law, but I am surprised how strongly this "superpower" is supported by other boaters.
Thanks for your perspective.

Keep posting these whiny, pollyannish complains as if you were abused by some military junta. You are not.

Fortunately, people who actually do the job are posting, too.

Pretty simple point -
"laws aren’t made to protect the public from people like us and sometimes a little inconvenience is the price of overall safety for everyone"

I speak only for myself here, but you can make a reasonable argument that recreational enforcement on inland waters is different than operating on the ocean.

The ocean is essentially an open border zone and customs law applies. And it’s also much more dangerous.

That being said, you have to make a distinction between commercial vessels and recreational vessels. If random inspections could not be done, smart criminals combined with open borders makes for a bad situation that is easily exploited. These random inspections ensure that fisheries aren’t devastated, smugglers aren’t moving people/drugs, vessels don’t pollute our waters, etc. No program is 100% fool proof, but I’d rather live with what we have than nothing at all.

Most of the people on this forum are good people trying to do the right thing. Unfortunately, laws aren’t made to protect the public from people like us and sometimes a little inconvenience is the price of overall safety for everyone. That’s a price I’m willing to pay.

 

[Beachbummer]

Keep posting these whiny, pollyannish complains as if you were abused by some military junta. You are not.

Fortunately, people who actually do the job are posting, too.

Pretty simple point -
"laws aren’t made to protect the public from people like us and sometimes a little inconvenience is the price of overall safety for everyone"

I have tried to present a very civil argument, and your responses continue to show disdain and contempt for those who prefer authority to have less power. It seems you are well set in your belief, but your statements do not persuade that you are right at all. If anything your word choice and tone reinforces my belief that those in power of authority needs set guidelines to ensure that power is used commensurate with need, and not with absolute discretion.

Similar but separate topic, Have you heard of the Peelian principles?

Peelian principles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What do you think?

Happy Boating!

 

[the MfM]

The USCG authority is very similar to US Customs in that they have broad powers within their area of jurisdiction. 14 USC 89 has been challenged on 4th amendment grounds in the past but was upheld by the court as constitutional. That’s not to say things couldn’t change in the future but there is lots of precedent going back to the 1800s for this type of authority.

Boating has changed a bit since the 1800s.


Growing up I don’t ever recall being boarded and I have never been. Of course my father was in the CG so that has probably helped some.

 

[thefortunes]

Although we weren't boarded, here was the cutter that stopped us on the return from Bimini in 2011.

If you zoom in you can see toward the stern the (I assume) refugees they had picked up that day.

 

[swatski]

your responses continue to show disdain and contempt for those who prefer authority to have less power.

Not sure why I'm responding, those postings are like bouncing empty balloons up in the air - and yes, I can't hide my disdain for this ridiculous discussion for the following reason: do you have any examples of being violated or mistreated by those evil USCG superpowers, or are you just whining about it?
- it's a rhetorical question, no need to answer.

--

 

[Mainah]

The coast guard has a difficult mission. How should they prevent unauthorized entry, smuggling, and all of the things their mission demands over a gigantic area without at least some random boardings? Should they have enough resources to stop everyone perpetrating a rule infraction or only enough to stop when they can to mitigate the risk of those infractions which may only need a polite verbal warning?

The safety and freedoms we enjoy come from at least the availability of a weapon being used. All of the armed forces have a role to play in protecting their respective countrymen. I am an Army veteran and fully respect the role USCG plays along with how they do it. If they decide to board me as part of their mission I am fine with that inconvenience in the name of safety and freedom. Yes there is a point where broad powers can be taken too far but I don’t think that is happening with the USCG. I do think that DNR asking a single boat on a random weekday evening with only a married couple on board enjoying a sunset while floating at least a quarter mile from anything else to move along or cast a line is a bit absurd (this happened to me with some of the ridiculous early CV-19 rules last year).

So many have given so much in this world in the name of safety and freedom. Think about how little you are being asked to give towards the same goal when being stopped by USCG or DNR. There are many is this world that know true oppression or worse that would give bodily parts for the life that goes along with being inconvenienced by the USCG or DNR.

Thank you to any USCG service member reading this. I imagine you get a lot of verbal flak. Brush it off and Charlie Mike (continue mission).

 

[zipper]

On the other side of the coin, I came to this forum after a pan pan call to the USCG 5 years ago. They did redirect the call to the Grand Isle Sherriff who towed us back to our marina where they also slipped their boat. All involved courtious and professional. One of my uncles retired from the USCG after 20+ years of service. Let me be clear, we have not been stopped or boarded by any authority on this Lake in over 40 years of boat ownership. I say hello to to the USCG guy standing in line at the food truck and talk about the Lake. I have said it before and will say it again, I like having them as neighbors.

 

[Mainah]

On the other side of the coin, I came to this forum after a pan pan call to the USCG 5 years ago. They did redirect the call to the Grand Isle Sherriff who towed us back to our marina where they also slipped their boat. All involved courtious and professional. One of my uncles retired from the USCG after 20+ years of service. Let me be clear, we have not been stopped or boarded by any authority on this Lake in over 40 years of boat ownership. I say hello to to the USCG guy standing in line at the food truck and talk about the Lake. I have said it before and will say it again, I like having them as neighbors.

Perhaps beating a dead horse and we do agree. Adding to your point about the rescue side of the coin. Could it be that part of the reason the USCG performs vessel, pfd, and required gear checks is because…
They would rather perform rescue operations as opposed to recovery operations?

 

[zipper]

Anyone been boarded like this? A clip of training.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2621112998046658

 

[Babin Farms]

Anyone been boarded like this?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2621112998046658

I wanna see Kate (@swatski) repel train like that?

 

[Robconn]

The Department of Natural Resources has jurisdiction at my local lake. By law, they are considered game wardens. They have federal powers as well as enhanced police powers. From issuing tickets to arresting suspects. In some cases they do not need a search warrants. Basically the appellate courts have held that the 4th amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizures do not apply to land or inanimate objects. The amendment only applies to people. So fishing without a license? Potentially, they won’t need probable cause to search your freezer at your home. Probably more likely to occur with hunting violations than illegal fishing though.

 

[Beachbummer]

Not sure why I'm responding, those postings are like bouncing empty balloons up in the air - and yes, I can't hide my disdain for this ridiculous discussion for the following reason: do you have any examples of being violated or mistreated by those evil USCG superpowers, or are you just whining about it?
- it's a rhetorical question, no need to answer.
--

As things work very very well, we don't stop to perfect then because they are pretty good.

We agree on most every point about the benefits of the system we have now. We disagree on the power some authority has to engage and detain at random without cause. I can understand the disagreement, but I am disappointed you cannot see that my position, while not your position, is one that is reasonable and comes from a desire for more freedom, not craziness or pettiness as you state.

How about Bureau of Firearms checking on your home for the right use and storage of your guns at random? Only 5 minutes every so often, at their discretion. not a major inconvenience? Some are for this. I am not. I would argue my thoughts against this are similar to my argument against boarding at random. I'd rather not be bothered by authority when no problem is suspected, thank you very much.

I heard the argument on "Good for us because they check that we are safe" and this could be done at our convenience, and if the auxiliary sticker freed you from being stopped I could even buy it, but this is not the case, and if safety was the real concern we could institute inspections as we do for cars on their good condition and equipment frequently vs. just a random coverage. We Inspect all cars is most states for good working order, we do not inspect guns or boats. (And I'm fine with that.) If that was a concern we could, and it would be less invasive, and more effective, so this argument does not persuade me.

It seems the topic does make you mad quite quickly, so I will not respond again. I appreciate your input in this topic and other boat related ones, I did not mean to upset you as much as I did. Like I said it seems you have little to worry about because the Feds rarely ever relinquish a power and this one has been on the books for a LONG time. Feel free to have the last word.

I leave you with one of my favorite characters. Red Foreman

 

[swatski]

As things work very very well, we don't stop to perfect then because they are pretty good.

We agree on most every point about the benefits of the system we have now. We disagree on the power some authority has to engage and detain at random without cause. I can understand the disagreement, but I am disappointed you cannot see that my position, while not your position, is one that is reasonable and comes from a desire for more freedom, not craziness or pettiness as you state.

How about Bureau of Firearms checking on your home for the right use and storage of your guns at random? Only 5 minutes every so often, at their discretion. not a major inconvenience? Some are for this. I am not. I would argue my thoughts against this are similar to my argument against boarding at random. I'd rather not be bothered by authority when no problem is suspected, thank you very much.

I heard the argument on "Good for us because they check that we are safe" and this could be done at our convenience, and if the auxiliary sticker freed you from being stopped I could even buy it, but this is not the case, and if safety was the real concern we could institute inspections as we do for cars on their good condition and equipment frequently vs. just a random coverage. We Inspect all cars is most states for good working order, we do not inspect guns or boats. (And I'm fine with that.) If that was a concern we could, and it would be less invasive, and more effective, so this argument does not persuade me.

It seems the topic does make you mad quite quickly, so I will not respond again. I appreciate your input in this topic and other boat related ones, I did not mean to upset you as much as I did. Like I said it seems you have little to worry about because the Feds rarely ever relinquish a power and this one has been on the books for a LONG time. Feel free to have the last word.

I leave you with one of my favorite characters. Red Foreman

[/QUOTE


--

It's all good. I haven't been able to boat much lately and it makes me turn into a real curmudgeon I guess.

I too don't care for wardens or federal agents being too powerful.

The military is different though. It's a blunt tool. It needs to be.

Happy boating!

--

 

[Maineiac]

I could say more, but some people can’t be convinced one way or another and at some point it becomes unproductive to continue the discussion. I think this conversation has reached that point.

 

[ScarabPapa]

OK, I get yelled at all the time by police and SD for wake. I'm doin 6-7mph in the intercoastal trying not to get swamped and boats are passing me. Do they realize we dont have trim? I'm getting tired of it. Anybody else have that issue?

 

[HangOutdoors]

I got a ticket last year and have been eyeballed more than once and seen people shaking their heads when I am trying not to get thrown on the rocks in the channel. 4mph or so if I can keep it that slow. Wonder if there is a mod we could do to our boats to minimize wake that can be put on and off?