Reliability of new voting machines questioned-Associated Press

[Enduro900]

1) In a system where we have more than 130 million votes, I'd say that anything under 0.01% would not be significant. I noted the 1 instance in PA where voter fraud has been documented. If you want to note other verified instances, feel free.

2) I'm well aware that some states sent ballots to every registered voter. I really don't have a problem with that and if there are any cases of voter fraud where someone sold their ballot or let someone else fill out there ballot, then of course they should be prosecuted. However, for that you need evidence. Feel free to post it if you can find it.

3) Sorry but the onus is on the accusers of fraud to prove problems. Where things are close, there are recounts. Where there are accusations of fraud then there are courts available to decide the contests.

4) Some poll watchers were denied admittance, but often because there already were too many poll watchers present. There's no rule that says they need to admit 200 or 300 or 1000 poll watchers at a particular location. In some cases, poll watchers were allowed in polling stations but not in satellite offices. Perhaps the PA law should be changed but that won't happen for this election.

Philadelphia Judge rejects Trump campaign lawsuit over poll watchers at satellite sites

A Philadelphia judge has denied President Trump’s campaign the right to have poll watchers inside the city’s satellite elections offices.

www.nbcnews.com

Oh and that poll 'worker' tearing up ballots? PolitiFact - No, this video doesn’t show an election worker destroying Trump ballots. It was a joke.

Its funny you keep wanting to equate my posting into overturning this election....i want a process that has integrity that more than 1/2 of the country at any given time will trust. Maybe Russia did hack this system in 2016. Maybe china did this time...... I frankly don ‘t think officials or courts would have the courage to overturn this now even if 10 smoking guns are found. Do you not think they will weigh cities going up in flames into a ruling???

I gave you multiple people that have said we can’t trust these machines/software etc, ALL EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD.

I gave you a whole state that said we can’t trust these machines/software etc.

I gave you evidence that what was feared, can actually happen in an election, because it DID happen.

Yet you come back with “proof” “evidence”

Why are you so determined to defend this system???? Is it because you are in IT?

So you are hellbent in defending a system your polling area didn’t use, that experts have said is a bad idea?

A state banned it......

Votes in an actual election were flipped.....

And experts on capital hill have testified they are a bad idea....

Are you worried if these machines are outlawed by more states, that will put a cloud over this election going forward??

Otherwise it makes no sense why you feel the need to keep defending this voting system......

 

[Beachbummer]

@Enduro900 I'm rooting for you, because the absolute proof of fair elections to me is when the losing party agrees to the results, so to me this is a discussion worth having. (I also know some participants are impossible to satisfy, but I'm writing with the conviction you are acting in good faith, as am I)

Many large counties in the states where the election is not "close" such as Texas, do not have ANY paper trail. I voted in Harris and there is ZERO paper attached to my vote. That is the worst case for potential for review in case of doubts of the integrity (what if the machines were hacked by invisible beings?, Texas can do a recount, they hit F5 in excel, voila, totals are the exact same as before, results stand, nothing to check.)

In other states where the machines actually make a paper record that is VISIBLE and readable to the user (EVEN if they also print and count the bar code, or some other obscure technique, but the guys name is also on it) there is no chance of machine cheating without being caught, because you can check out the paper later to confirm the machine behaved and your vote is machine hack proof, because when you check the paper against the count by hand, any shenanigans will be visible. (I'm making up the term Machine cheating from your feedback, to say that the machine was altered/modified/convinced to cheat to change votes from one candidate to the other)

My point earlier when you said I was hijacking by talking about non-machine induced problems still applies. When it's easier to trick people that to trick the machine, you machine is secure "enough". Your security must be evenly spread. Why super secure the machine behind super tight physical controls, but then allow 1 poll worker alone at night who might add votes on his own? If you want integrity of the whole process, it needs to be treated as a whole system and hardened in order of weakness and vulnerability. I won't mention this again, but if you want integrity in the system you can't focus on just one piece. No more hijacking.

I'm with you on your desire for an auditable system with your own eyes. I vote in Harris County and I don't have that and I wish I had it. No disagreement here. I turns out the states that are close have some sort of paper trail so the recount/review in GA will include validating the human readable portion of the paper record to the machine counts.

I think there are 3 machine types, and I think we have agreement on 2 out of the 3

1 Machines with no Paper trail
Agreement, they are not cool.this is what Harris County uses today.

2 Machines where the voter marks the paper directly so machine and human read the same "tick"
Agreement, You like them, and I do too. Paper trail is what the voter marked, so human and machine read the same piece of paper to tally ballots.

3 Machines where they print a paper audit, but the machine counts something else and the paper is only used as audit later - Be it a memory record in a storage chip, or unreadable bar code that the machine tallies. So, machine counts the "human can't read this" part, even though it also prints the voter's intention on paper so the human readable part can be manually reviewed by the voter right then, and by others later.
Disagreement - You don't like these, and I think they are fine.
You think the machine can cheat and show one thing and count another, and many articles say many experts can "hack" these machines so, no thanks, don't use them.
(I say, These are fine, We can still check as many machines by hand as desired, but the results on election night can be counted fast because we are counting things made for machines, not for humans to read.)

Is this a fair representation of your concern with these Machines that count things that humans can't read?

Loaded question:
Do you agree that for these machines the paper trail can be re-examined to re-create the count based on what humans could read at voting time in their ballot?

Hoping to continue to understand your perspective.

 

[jetivan]

Its funny you keep wanting to equate my posting into overturning this election....i want a process that has integrity that more than 1/2 of the country at any given time will trust. Maybe Russia did hack this system in 2016. Maybe china did this time...... I frankly don ‘t think officials or courts would have the courage to overturn this now even if 10 smoking guns are found. Do you not think they will weigh cities going up in flames into a ruling???

I gave you multiple people that have said we can’t trust these machines/software etc, ALL EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD.

I gave you a whole state that said we can’t trust these machines/software etc.

I gave you evidence that what was feared, can actually happen in an election, because it DID happen.

Yet you come back with “proof” “evidence”

Why are you so determined to defend this system???? Is it because you are in IT?

So you are hellbent in defending a system your polling area didn’t use, that experts have said is a bad idea?

A state banned it......

Votes in an actual election were flipped.....

And experts on capital hill have testified they are a bad idea....

Are you worried if these machines are outlawed by more states, that will put a cloud over this election going forward??

Otherwise it makes no sense why you feel the need to keep defending this voting system......

I do agree that no one should have blind faith in voting software which is why I prefer systems that have a paper audit trail. That said, there is no evidence that any voting machines were hacked, that votes were 'flipped' or that the results are invalid.

Report: White House pressuring CISA to stop debunking election nonsense [Updated]

CISA has aggressively debunked claims of fraud in the 2020 election.

arstechnica.com

Election Security Rumor vs. Reality | CISA

www.cisa.gov

This agency is run by a Trump appointee who has no reason to cover up a hack of our infrastructure. So yes, I do think that our systems could be improved but that doesn't mean that fraud has happened.

 

[Bruce]

@Enduro900 multiple state and federal agencies have stated that there is “no evidence that votes were compromised or altered in last week’s presidential election”.

All states are carrying out their long used processes to verify their vote counts before certifying their results.

A diverse group of elected and appointed officials will verify that the potential issue that you posted about and many other potential issues did not alter the counting.

I can not see any benefit to continuing this debate. If there ever was merit to this debate it was before the election.

 

[mike220022]

I can not see any benefit to continuing this debate. If there ever was merit to this debate it was before the election.

So simply stop clicking the link and go back to reading about fins, seadek, speakers, and ballast bags. Some of us are interested in finding out the truth and discussing the issue of how simple it is for a machine to be hacked like this. I prefer to wait it out and ignore the biased media and corrupt states. Will it change anything, probably not to be honest....nobody in Govt seems to be held accountable but we can still read the evidence posted on this off-topic thread. Nobody is required to read if they dont want to, I ignore the majority of the threads here that repeat the same question over and over instead of people just searching, its simple and causes me no issues in my day to day life

 

[Sbrown]

I, for one, have been following this thread since its inception. I have been enjoying reading the comments coming from differing perspectives and I think so far its been mostly a civil discussion. There are, of course some notable exceptions to this, but that person seems to have stopped commenting. I currently would vote against this thread being closed. I think it is an enjoyable and worthwhile debate.

As the current Treasurer of an organization which has been embezzled from in the past, I very well know what transparency means and what it looks like. I also know how to make the paper trail abundantly easy to follow. I, for many reasons, don't think our current system is appropriately transparent and I think until it is, many people will be perfectly justified in questioning the validity of the results. This is how our system works. I think for anyone to say that questioning the results is undermining our democracy is someone who is afraid of the potential results of an audit. That fact alone tells me that person doesn't have any more faith in the system than the person requesting the audit.

 

[Bruce]

So simply stop clicking the link and go back to reading about fins, seadek, speakers, and ballast bags. Some of us are interested in finding out the truth and discussing the issue of how simple it is for a machine to be hacked like this. I prefer to wait it out and ignore the biased media and corrupt states. Will it change anything, probably not to be honest....nobody in Govt seems to be held accountable but we can still read the evidence posted on this off-topic thread. Nobody is required to read if they dont want to, I ignore the majority of the threads here that repeat the same question over and over instead of people just searching, its simple and causes me no issues in my day to day life

Mike, there are plenty of places to discuss politics. This is a boating forum and I am having difficulty believing this thread is not politically motivated.

 

[Bruce]

@Sbrown as for reporting and transparency you should start by reading this report on the 2016 election. https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/eac_assets/1/6/2016_EAVS_Comprehensive_Report.pdf

From there you can find many reports from other federal agencies and and one on each state.

Just like previous elections, this election will be well documented after the results are certified.

My candidate lost, that does not change the fact that we had a fair and accurate election.

 

[mike220022]

Mike, there are plenty of places to discuss politics. This is a boating forum and I am having difficulty believing this thread is not politically motivated.

Then maybe delete this whole section?

Off Topic Discussions (Not boating related)

It is not political and then again it is political. Point is it is whatever you decide to make it out to be in your own mind, either way its a legitimate issue. Just because youre not a fan of the topic doesnt mean there is no benefit to debate the accuracy and reliability of voting machines. Funny how one moderator can actively post in the thread yet another one can argue the benefit of keeping it open. Nobody is forcing anything down anyones throat, when I see a topic I dont care to discuss here I just simply dont click the thread. Crazy how easy it is...

 

[Bruce]

@mike220022, The [USERGROUP=3]@Administrative[/USERGROUP] crew discusses controversial threads and takes action based on the majority position. We have a wide range of political views among the administrators which eliminates political bias.

Please keep the discussion within the forum rules so that we do not have to moderate. Non partisan discussion of voting equipment or regulations is apolitical. If that discussion is intended to push a political agenda then it is a problem.

My candidate lost a fair election.

 

[Enduro900]

@Enduro900 I'm rooting for you, because the absolute proof of fair elections to me is when the losing party agrees to the results, so to me this is a discussion worth having. (I also know some participants are impossible to satisfy, but I'm writing with the conviction you are acting in good faith, as am I)

Many large counties in the states where the election is not "close" such as Texas, do not have ANY paper trail. I voted in Harris and there is ZERO paper attached to my vote. That is the worst case for potential for review in case of doubts of the integrity (what if the machines were hacked by invisible beings?, Texas can do a recount, they hit F5 in excel, voila, totals are the exact same as before, results stand, nothing to check.)

In other states where the machines actually make a paper record that is VISIBLE and readable to the user (EVEN if they also print and count the bar code, or some other obscure technique, but the guys name is also on it) there is no chance of machine cheating without being caught, because you can check out the paper later to confirm the machine behaved and your vote is machine hack proof, because when you check the paper against the count by hand, any shenanigans will be visible. (I'm making up the term Machine cheating from your feedback, to say that the machine was altered/modified/convinced to cheat to change votes from one candidate to the other)

My point earlier when you said I was hijacking by talking about non-machine induced problems still applies. When it's easier to trick people that to trick the machine, you machine is secure "enough". Your security must be evenly spread. Why super secure the machine behind super tight physical controls, but then allow 1 poll worker alone at night who might add votes on his own? If you want integrity of the whole process, it needs to be treated as a whole system and hardened in order of weakness and vulnerability. I won't mention this again, but if you want integrity in the system you can't focus on just one piece. No more hijacking.

I'm with you on your desire for an auditable system with your own eyes. I vote in Harris County and I don't have that and I wish I had it. No disagreement here. I turns out the states that are close have some sort of paper trail so the recount/review in GA will include validating the human readable portion of the paper record to the machine counts.

I think there are 3 machine types, and I think we have agreement on 2 out of the 3

1 Machines with no Paper trail
Agreement, they are not cool.this is what Harris County uses today.

2 Machines where the voter marks the paper directly so machine and human read the same "tick"
Agreement, You like them, and I do too. Paper trail is what the voter marked, so human and machine read the same piece of paper to tally ballots.

3 Machines where they print a paper audit, but the machine counts something else and the paper is only used as audit later - Be it a memory record in a storage chip, or unreadable bar code that the machine tallies. So, machine counts the "human can't read this" part, even though it also prints the voter's intention on paper so the human readable part can be manually reviewed by the voter right then, and by others later.
Disagreement - You don't like these, and I think they are fine.
You think the machine can cheat and show one thing and count another, and many articles say many experts can "hack" these machines so, no thanks, don't use them.
(I say, These are fine, We can still check as many machines by hand as desired, but the results on election night can be counted fast because we are counting things made for machines, not for humans to read.)

Is this a fair representation of your concern with these Machines that count things that humans can't read?

Loaded question:
Do you agree that for these machines the paper trail can be re-examined to re-create the count based on what humans could read at voting time in their ballot?

Hoping to continue to understand your perspective.

First and foremost I respect your input and opinion.

Secondly I am NOT saying I am right.....to you or anyone else......I Only set out to let people know there are warnings about these electronic voting systems (let’s refer to them as Dominion, although there are a few other similar systems under other names).

Since I started this topic, more and more information is coming out to question these systems even more, Including an article in the Wall Street Journal from April questioning these systems (before the election). I do not have a subscription so I cannot post a link or copy/paste but it is out there.

Texas: Your Lt Governor Dan Patrick was in an interview recently and confirmed they looked at these systems......and under no circumstances would Texas consider buying and using these systems because he said there (six) security experts evaluated the systems and each said they would not trust them to give accurate voting results (they did not even count all votes in their tests), nor were they secure enough to be trusted safe from hacking.


Is this a fair representation of your concern with these Machines that count things that humans can't read?

Yes.....Colorado banned these systems & Texas refused to buy them after evaluating them. But I think we may be past just this issue now. I think we need to re-think what we are willing to accept as “certified” election results. I think a third-party group needs to be involved with the vote certifications.

 

[Enduro900]

Mike, there are plenty of places to discuss politics. This is a boating forum and I am having difficulty believing this thread is not politically motivated.

Off Topic Discussions (Not boating related)-General off topic:

Well then why was this area added to this forum if only “boating related topics” are allowed on this site???

I have said over and over again this thread is not intended to be political, and asked others to not make it political.

Are you calling me a Liar?

Is any of what I have shared been “one-sided propaganda”??? “Experts” in voting security have warned about these systems.....and none of their statements seem to be of a party concern, but seem to be a concern for our democracy and election integrity (or the paper ballot manufacturers are paying them to spread fear of electronic voting, which I have not ruled out myself).

Has any of what I shared even been a “right wing” source???

The interesting thing is that so far (2) states have either banned or gone on record that they refused to buy these systems....1 blue and 1 red....so even the concern is “bipartisan”.....

 

[Enduro900]

I do agree that no one should have blind faith in voting software which is why I prefer systems that have a paper audit trail. That said, there is no evidence that any voting machines were hacked, that votes were 'flipped' or that the results are invalid.

Report: White House pressuring CISA to stop debunking election nonsense [Updated]

CISA has aggressively debunked claims of fraud in the 2020 election.

arstechnica.com

Election Security Rumor vs. Reality | CISA

www.cisa.gov

This agency is run by a Trump appointee who has no reason to cover up a hack of our infrastructure. So yes, I do think that our systems could be improved but that doesn't mean that fraud has happened.

There is evidence of vote flipping by these machine, in 2 elections now....so please do not state otherwise.....and it was thousands of voters.

Was it caught? Yes it was. Would it have been caught automatically? No, it took time for them to figure it out......

I will state for the 60th time right here, right now again. I DO NOT THINK THIS ELECTION WILL BE OVERTURNED!!!!

Can we now focus on 2022 and 2024???

If you are completely fine with these systems, see no risk and couldn’t care less (and did not vote on one at the last election) ask your local county to order them for your next election.

Here is the website with ordering information for you to pass along:

Home - Dominion Voting Systems

Get the Facts about Dominion Voting Systems. 2024 Election Legal Updates DOMINION PRODUCTS ARE POWERED BY Democracy Suite® Election Management System Powered by the Democracy Suite® Election Management System (EMS), Dominion solutions cater to the unique needs of every election. Learn More...

www.dominionvoting.com

You can even read their denial and how safe, accurate and secure they are......I will take Colorado and Texas’s word against their’s though.....

 

[mark_m]

There is evidence of vote flipping by these machine, in 2 elections now....so please do not state otherwise.....and it was thousands of voters.

Was it caught? Yes it was. Would it have been caught automatically? No, it took time for them to figure it out......

I will state for the 60th time right here, right now again. I DO NOT THINK THIS ELECTION WILL BE OVERTURNED!!!!

Can we now focus on 2022 and 2024???

If you are completely fine with these systems, see no risk and couldn’t care less (and did not vote on one at the last election) ask your local county to order them for your next election.

Here is the website with ordering information for you to pass along:

Home - Dominion Voting Systems

Get the Facts about Dominion Voting Systems. 2024 Election Legal Updates DOMINION PRODUCTS ARE POWERED BY Democracy Suite® Election Management System Powered by the Democracy Suite® Election Management System (EMS), Dominion solutions cater to the unique needs of every election. Learn More...

www.dominionvoting.com

You can even read their denial and how safe, accurate and secure they are......I will take Colorado and Texas’s word against their’s though.....

Here’s a thought. Why not use a platform like change.org and start petitions in the states where the voting equipment and controls are vulnerable? I’m with Bruce, not seeing the efficacy of getting change propagated from a bottom up campaign from jetboaters.net.

Here’s what I found breaking things down state by state:

Voting methods and equipment by state

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

Also, it’s interesting if you search you can see that for each county there are different systems/vendors in each state. Drilling into PA, for example, there are different systems in the metro areas same as other rural and vice versa.

It’s been an interesting thread, but for me it’s ran its course. Thanks for starting it, enduro.

 

[Enduro900]

Here’s a thought. Why not use a platform like change.org and start petitions in the states where the voting equipment and controls are vulnerable? I’m with Bruce, not seeing the efficacy of getting change propagated from a bottom up campaign from jetboaters.net.

Here’s what I found breaking things down state by state:

Voting methods and equipment by state

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

Also, it’s interesting if you search you can see that for each county there are different systems/vendors in each state. Drilling into PA, for example, there are different systems in the metro areas same as other rural and vice versa.

It’s been an interesting thread, but for me it’s ran its course. Thanks for starting it, enduro.

Some of you guys really do crack me up.....I’ve stated over and over again that not all counties nor all states use these systems for voting......but millions of people did vote on them.

You guys really think I came on here as a “call to arms” of Jet Boaters.net to change the world?? This is a great site and I have enjoyed reading and learning from it, but no I did it to post info that some may not have know about, because I thought it is important that we do.

I posted it to inform about there are people (experts, remember them?) that have grave concerns about some of the voting systems out there.

I posted it because the concern is so great Colorado has banned these systems going forward.

And now a second state (Texas) revealed they said “no way”......

So here is my thought about your thought......Experts testified in front of congress about these systems yet I am going to be able to move the mountain they couldnt???

If you look at my original post, I posted information and even asked people to read only, and not to comment.....yet I have been called a punk, liar and even told I am not welcome on this site anymore......For posting an Associated Press article!

How about this....how about we all just do nothing, we don’t ask questions, lets not have the media report on this topic, stop all the experts, and forget 2 states (maybe more) don’t trust this system........now are you happy???

 

[mike220022]

How about this....how about we all just do nothing, we don’t ask questions, lets not have the media report on this topic, stop all the experts, and forget 2 states (maybe more) don’t trust this system........now are you happy???

No they are not happy, they are overwhelmed with having to log into this site and click on this exact thread every time someone posts something to read what they say they dont care to read. Do you not realize how much stress and anxiety it causes knowing there is an unread thread on someone's screen, it is just not possible to simply ignore it and move on with their lives. The thread must be opened, it just has to be.

I can only assume now that Off Topic means not boating related, just in the same family.....kinda like 3rd cousins to it. Like..."I just bought a new life jacket today but NOT for use on my boat, I just like how it looked on me."

 

[Bruce]

but no I did it to post info that some may not have know about, because I thought it is important that we do.

Everytime a new voting system is proposed there is a flood of articles debating the security and usability of the system.

Are there really Americans who do not know that electronic devices can be flawed and insecure?

There are government agencies tasked with ensuring the security and accuracy of this equipment and contractors who specialize in identifying the weaknesses. With your level obsession perhaps you should consider a career related to voting equipment. That way we all could benefit from your dedication to the subject.

Personally I think we should issue secured CAC cards to all citizens allow secure online voting eliminating most usage of voting equipment and the mail.

 

[mike220022]

Are there really Americans who do not know that electronic devices can be flawed and insecure?

I wouldn't think so but there was just a question on here from someone that owns a boat about why their trailer is black and not silver and had no idea the difference. Seems like common sense to a lot of people but guess what...they didnt know. I guess we shouldve replied "Do you really not know the difference between a painted trailer and a galvanized or aluminum trailer??" But instead the question was answered by those that wanted to participate in the thread and ignored by those that did not, the exact way it should be and the exact way this thread can be treated. You're making it political with your repeated "my candidate lost" statement if you didn't realize that.

 

[Rockfords Fosgate]

The Chairman of the Federal Election Commission said this yesterday: “I DO BELIEVE THERE IS FRAUD IN THESE PLACES — IF THE LAW IS NOT FOLLOWED IT MAKES THIS AN ILLEGITIMATE ELECTION”

 

[Bruce]

The Chairman of the Federal Election Commission said this yesterday: “I DO BELIEVE THERE IS FRAUD IN THESE PLACES — IF THE LAW IS NOT FOLLOWED IT MAKES THIS AN ILLEGITIMATE ELECTION”

Please provide a reputable reference for that quote.