Reliability of new voting machines questioned-Associated Press

[Rockfords Fosgate]

Sorry, you’ll need to do that research for yourself. I cannot prescribe what you think is reputable. Many still consider news sources who parrot political party talking points to be reputable. Many also still consider news organizations who were complicit in a three year attempt to promote a fake Russian collusion narrative to be reputable.

 

[Bruce]

@Rockfords Fosgate, since you are unable to provide a reputable source I will provide a dissenting view from a centered media organization quoting the nonpartisan Election Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council Executive Committee (GCC) and Election Infrastructure Sector Coordinating Council (SCC).

This portion of the article is particular relevant to the pretext of this thread “The security groups said all the states with close results in the race have paper records of each vote, which can be counted if necessary.”

No voting system deleted or lost votes in U.S. election: security groups

Election security officials have no evidence that ballots were deleted or lost by voting systems in this month's U.S. election, two security groups said in a statement released on Thursday by the lead U.S. cybersecurity agency.

www.reuters.com

 

[crazy4life]

The Chairman of the Federal Election Commission said this yesterday: “I DO BELIEVE THERE IS FRAUD IN THESE PLACES — IF THE LAW IS NOT FOLLOWED IT MAKES THIS AN ILLEGITIMATE ELECTION”

This is the guy you are quoting

Trainor is an election lawyer who represented Trump’s 2016 campaign. He says Trump’s lawsuits regarding the election are valid allegations and will likely end up in the Supreme Court.

Seems unbiased to me

 

[Beachbummer]

Texas: Your Lt Governor Dan Patrick was in an interview recently and confirmed they looked at these systems......and under no circumstances would Texas consider buying and using these systems because he said there (six) security experts evaluated the systems and each said they would not trust them to give accurate voting results (they did not even count all votes in their tests), nor were they secure enough to be trusted safe from hacking.


Is this a fair representation of your concern with these Machines that count things that humans can't read?

Yes.....Colorado banned these systems & Texas refused to buy them after evaluating them. But I think we may be past just this issue now. I think we need to re-think what we are willing to accept as “certified” election results. I think a third-party group needs to be involved with the vote certifications.

I find it nuts that Texas governor would knock on a system with some paper record where many of the current machines used here provide none.

For any machines we are asking the right questions..how can they be manipulated to change the result? but further we should ask, can that be done without detection with the current controls in place? (I still think the answer to this is NO, and that in fact the manipulation possible did not happen due to other physical controls, and the votes are indeed what was cast)

This verification/audit of machine record to paper human readable record is happening in Georgia now, so that will be interesting and hopefully restores some of the confidence in that system.

 

[Julian]

Off Topic Discussions (Not boating related)-General off topic:

Well then why was this area added to this forum if only “boating related topics” are allowed on this site???

”.....

So you think that there are boating related topics and politics and that is it? Nothing else in the world would be considered non boating related? Your world view is rather narrow.

Everything I've read about these machines and how they are used suggests we are doing what we can to protect our election. The machines in question are not on the internet, they are standalone. That doesn't mean they can't be "hacked", but it does mean that to hack them you have to have physical access to them or have hacked the system used to code them. That system is also under the tightest security we have, AND we audit the machines before and afterwards to ensure the software loaded is validated. That doesn't guarantee it couldn't have been hacked, but that is about as secure as you can get. In addition to this, we hire hackers and pay them (with major bonuses if they succeed) to attempt to get in. Most companies and countries now do this (its called bug bounty).

I would find this thread much more interesting if there was a State using these machines that had published that they'd uncovered an instance of these machines being hacked, or a machine somehow malfunctioning and changing votes. The only State publicized errors thus far have been human errors.

I do agree that an auditable paper trail should always be there as a backup.

The election isn't finalized. Audits continue.

Thanks again everyone for keeping this civil. Moderating is a suck job.

For those of you whining about the moderators being biased - Helen Waite runs our complaints department....please go to Helen Waite with your complaints. (meant as a joke....if you don't like the joke, reread this paragraph)! LOL Actually - hit the REPORT button on a thread if someone violates our code of conduct - linked in my signature.

 

[Enduro900]

Colorado (a blue state) banned them

Texas (a red state) Evaluated them, had (6) security experts evaluate them and all said no way....

Is there more states that found issues??? Does anyone want to know? It sure sounds like some of you don’t.......

 

[Enduro900]

Everytime a new voting system is proposed there is a flood of articles debating the security and usability of the system.

Are there really Americans who do not know that electronic devices can be flawed and insecure?

There are government agencies tasked with ensuring the security and accuracy of this equipment and contractors who specialize in identifying the weaknesses. With your level obsession perhaps you should consider a career related to voting equipment. That way we all could benefit from your dedication to the subject.

Personally I think we should issue secured CAC cards to all citizens allow secure online voting eliminating most usage of voting equipment and the mail.

So how many stm machines now can’t accurately count your deposit?

It doesn’t ask for a deposit amount anymore, you stuff a wade of cash in the slot, it counts the bills, asks you to confirm the amount, deposits it and its always the right amount that appears in my account......but we have to accept “flawed and insecure” for our elections???? Why? Because some people are telling us to???

 

[Enduro900]

@Rockfords Fosgate, since you are unable to provide a reputable source I will provide a dissenting view from a centered media organization quoting the nonpartisan Election Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council Executive Committee (GCC) and Election Infrastructure Sector Coordinating Council (SCC).

This portion of the article is particular relevant to the pretext of this thread “The security groups said all the states with close results in the race have paper records of each vote, which can be counted if necessary.”

No voting system deleted or lost votes in U.S. election: security groups

Election security officials have no evidence that ballots were deleted or lost by voting systems in this month's U.S. election, two security groups said in a statement released on Thursday by the lead U.S. cybersecurity agency.

www.reuters.com

Bruce, can you please share with me when these agencies did there forensic investigations on the voting machines in the field for this article???

Do you not know how to read “spin” yet???

“WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Election security officials have no evidence that ballots were deleted or lost by voting systems in this month’s U.S. election, two security groups said in a statement released on Thursday by the lead U.S. cybersecurity agency.”

Ummmm they have no evidence because they have done no forensic investigation......if the story said they did anything but parrot talking points, I’d give it some credence......but they didn’t so i wont.


“Top U.S. cybersecurity official Christopher Krebs, who worked on protecting the election from hackers, has told associates he expects to be fired, sources familiar with the matter told Reuters.”

So someone just took the sword for releasing a totally unsupported statement......yes i expect an agency to do an investigation versus telling us nothing happened......

This is nothing more than damage control.....

“We are announcing today that there will be no charges filed in the murder of john smith”.......did you investigate the murder? Ummmm, no we did not......

2 states will not use these systems....so please don’t try and spin this....there are serious issues and that article is damage control, they never did anything except double-down to try and appease people.....

 

[Enduro900]

1. So you think that there are boating related topics and politics and that is it? Nothing else in the world would be considered non boating related? Your world view is rather narrow.



2. I would find this thread much more interesting if there was a State using these machines that had published that they'd uncovered an instance of these machines being hacked, or a machine somehow malfunctioning and changing votes. The only State publicized errors thus far have been human errors.

3. Thanks again everyone for keeping this civil. Moderating is a suck job.

For those of you whining about the moderators being biased - Helen Waite runs our complaints department....please go to Helen Waite with your complaints. (meant as a joke....if you don't like the joke, reread this paragraph)! LOL Actually - hit the REPORT button on a thread if someone violates our code of conduct - linked in my signature.

1. That is an odd statement.....people have said this doesn’t belong on this site because its not “boating related”...well its in the “non-boating related” section....so if the thread was about an ATM study that said some banks have evaluated some ATM machines and found those to be prone to mistakes, and will not use them..........and I posted it to say our money could be at risk, would that topic be ok?

2. Do you think Colorado and Texas not using them because of issues is not concerning enough? You could probably file a FOIA and get their internal reports......i want to know what, if any, other states evaluated and said no....

3. Thank you.....

 

[Julian]

1. That is an odd statement.....people have said this doesn’t belong on this site because its not “boating related”...well its in the “non-boating related” section....so if the thread was about an ATM study that said some banks have evaluated some ATM machines and found those to be prone to mistakes, and will not use them..........and I posted it to say our money could be at risk, would that topic be ok?

2. Do you think Colorado and Texas not using them because of issues is not concerning enough? You could probably file a FOIA and get their internal reports......i want to know what, if any, other states evaluated and said no....

3. Thank you.....

1) We don't call out "Banking" discussions in our code of conduct as topics we don't allow. So yes, discussions about banking would be fine. Perhaps you should read our code of conduct? Now, that said, if you start a banking discussion and it turns into a shit show of people calling each other names and violating our code of conduct on personal attacks, then yes, it would be shut down. Please read the code of conduct and then ask any futher questions you may have on how we try to keep this forum a pleasant place to discuss things. Partisan Political discussions are clearly called out and not allowed.

2) Are there published reports on why CO & TX chose not to use them? For all I know they couldn't afford them. But if they chose not to use them because they didn't give a paper trail option without ONLY a barcode, then that makes sense. I suspect these machines could easily be coded to print the name under the barcode.

 

[Enduro900]

-In 2018 alone "voters in South Carolina [were] reporting machines that switched their votes after they'd inputted them,

-And, just this year, after the Democratic candidate's electronic tally showed he received an improbable
164 votes out of 55,000 cast in a Pennsylvania state judicial election in 2019, the county's Republican Chairwoman said, " [n]othing went right on Election Day. Everything went wrong. That's a problem."16 These problems threaten the integrity of our elections and demonstrate the importance of election systems that are strong, durable, and not vulnerable to attack.

-In addition, researchers recently uncovered previously undisclosed vulnerabilities in "nearly three dozen backend election systems in 10 states."

Just a few highlights......from Senator Warren’s letter in 2019......of both operational/security concerns, as well as how these private companies are funded and who they are in bed with:

https://www.warren.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/H.I.G.%20McCarthy,%20&%20Staple%20Street%20letters.pdf

 

[Bruce]

Bruce, can you please share with me when these agencies did there forensic investigations on the voting machines in the field for this article???

Each state is currently conducting their own audit on this election before certifying their election counts. Each state conducted their own due diligence on equipment before purchasing it. As you have pointed out that led to states preferring different equipment from differing vendors. That diversity makes "hacking the election" more difficult but also increases the amount of work that is needed to verify the security of the diverse equipment.

This is a nice article on testing of election equipment. Voting Machine Makers Are Finally Playing Nice With Hackers

Do you plan to devote your life to auditing elections or is this a short term obsession?

 

[Enduro900]

1) We don't call out "Banking" discussions in our code of conduct as topics we don't allow. So yes, discussions about banking would be fine. Perhaps you should read our code of conduct? Now, that said, if you start a banking discussion and it turns into a shit show of people calling each other names and violating our code of conduct on personal attacks, then yes, it would be shut down. Please read the code of conduct and then ask any futher questions you may have on how we try to keep this forum a pleasant place to discuss things. Partisan Political discussions are clearly called out and not allowed.

2) Are there published reports on why CO & TX chose not to use them? For all I know they couldn't afford them. But if they chose not to use them because they didn't give a paper trail option without ONLY a barcode, then that makes sense. I suspect these machines could easily be coded to print the name under the barcode.

1). Great, not a partisan discussion so we are good, thank you for clearing this up.


2) Colorado banned them because they couldn’t afford them? I told you why Texas won’t use them, you can google the LT Governors quotes about dominion yourself......the AP article stated why Colorado banned them.........

Senator warren wrote a letter, seems she was not only concerned about the voting systems themselves, she had concerns about where the private companies were getting their funding, and who they were in bed with in 2019:

https://www.warren.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/H.I.G.%20McCarthy,%20&%20Staple%20Street%20letters.pdf

 

[Enduro900]

Each state is currently conducting their own audit on this election before certifying their election counts. Each state conducted their own due diligence on equipment before purchasing it. As you have pointed out that led to states preferring different equipment from differing vendors. That diversity makes "hacking the election" more difficult but also increases the amount of work that is needed to verify the security of the diverse equipment.

This is a nice article on testing of election equipment. Voting Machine Makers Are Finally Playing Nice With Hackers

Do you plan to devote your life to auditing elections or is this a short term obsession?

I have violated no forum rules, so why do you find it ok to be so disrespectful to me????

Pretty condescending....so its obvious you really don’t care whether your vote really counts or not, so please take your ball over to the “which steering fin is better” 500 threads......

Maybe spend some time researching and reading all that is out there on this subject, instead of just researching and posting “spin” material?

Is posting a letter of concern by Senator Warren from 2019 ok, or is that “too political”??

https://www.warren.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/H.I.G.%20McCarthy,%20&%20Staple%20Street%20letters.pdf

It Seems she had security AND financial concerns about these companies....Gee I wonder what she was implying by that????

Would you now like to imply senator warren is “tinfoil hat material” too?

 

[Julian]

1). Great, not a partisan discussion so we are good, thank you for clearing this up.


2) Colorado banned them because they couldn’t afford them? I told you why Texas won’t use them, you can google the LT Governors quotes about dominion yourself......the AP article stated why Colorado banned them.........

Senator warren wrote a letter, seems she was not only concerned about the voting systems themselves, she had concerns about where the private companies were getting their funding, and who they were in bed with in 2019:

https://www.warren.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/H.I.G.%20McCarthy,%20&%20Staple%20Street%20letters.pdf

That link takes this discussion in a slightly different direction. Funding election security. The problem there is likely that the US government typically awards bids to the lowest bidder. So we get the lowest quality, least secure, least supported option that some vendor has likely discounted the shit out of just to get the volume deal. Often times working at a loss to deliver (and under cut) his competitors. This race to the bottom is far more likely the problem in all of this, and as far as election security goes...is probably not the place to be scrimping. That letter calls out all the typical issues companies face when dealing with low bid, slow paying entities like the government - the worst of which is - no maintenance contract (or far too small a one) that allows them to update and support the initial system properly. I face this all the time in my company. No one wants to pay for (high) security, but everyone expects we spend millions on it. You get what you pay for. The 2nd part is the stupid way we do this on a state by state basis - the federal government could build a national voting system that would be bulletproof, auditable, accessible to everyone - but it would cost a lot.

 

[Bruce]

so its obvious you really don’t care whether your vote really counts or not

My vote was cast by mail and counted. My preferred candidate lost. I can live with that.

What bothers me is that you choose to use our forum to create and continue a heated debate that is unrelated to boating. This forum is provided as a donation to the community. Most of the time very little moderation is needed. The membership chose to avoid political discussion on the forum. That choice makes forum operation easier. Your obsession, which borders on pushing a political position, creates work for our voluntary administrators.

There are many, more effective, places to advocate for change to our voting systems.

 

[mike220022]

My vote was cast by mail and counted. My preferred candidate lost. I can live with that.

Once again, YOU are the one throwing in partisan comments. Hypocrisy lives well in you moderators/keyboard warriors.

Do you plan to devote your life to auditing elections or is this a short term obsession?

Keeping an ongoing discussion about real world issues that are currently ongoing is labeled an obsession but 93476902837690273672397 posts about a damn anchor is perfectly normal...gotcha. This is in "OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS" about a ballot machine, dont want it political then stop throwing your unsolicited party preference out there.

So you think that there are boating related topics and politics and that is it? Nothing else in the world would be considered non boating related? Your world view is rather narrow.

If you don't want to discuss the topic, stop throwing your 2cents out there every chance you get. Damn ya'll bash the shit out of somebody for discussing something that is a hot topic just because you say you don't want to discuss it...even though you all keep throwing out your own opinions.

 

[djetok]

Once again, YOU are the one throwing in partisan comments. Hypocrisy lives well in you moderators/keyboard warriors.



Keeping an ongoing discussion about real world issues that are currently ongoing is labeled an obsession but 93476902837690273672397 posts about a damn anchor is perfectly normal...gotcha. This is in "OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS" about a ballot machine, dont want it political then stop throwing your unsolicited party preference out there.



If you don't want to discuss the topic, stop throwing your 2cents out there every chance you get. Damn ya'll bash the shit out of somebody for discussing something that is a hot topic just because you say you don't want to discuss it...even though you all keep throwing out your own opinions.

I don't care either way. But you do realize you are arguing with the people that not only moderate the board but also pay for this board.

 

[Julian]

Once again, YOU are the one throwing in partisan comments. Hypocrisy lives well in you moderators/keyboard warriors.



Keeping an ongoing discussion about real world issues that are currently ongoing is labeled an obsession but 93476902837690273672397 posts about a damn anchor is perfectly normal...gotcha. This is in "OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS" about a ballot machine, dont want it political then stop throwing your unsolicited party preference out there.



If you don't want to discuss the topic, stop throwing your 2cents out there every chance you get. Damn ya'll bash the shit out of somebody for discussing something that is a hot topic just because you say you don't want to discuss it...even though you all keep throwing out your own opinions.

I am moderating the forum. When he doesn't understand the purpose of a forum area - I'm forced to explain it. Do you need help too? Perhaps you could stick to the topic and provide some relevant input vs further stiring things up (your last 7 replies are off topic...perhaps I'm missing something?)

 

[mike220022]

I don't care either way. But you do realize you are arguing with the people that not only moderate the board but also pay for this board.

Paying for something doesn't make you automatically right nor does it give you the right to shit on someone else who has done nothing against the policy just because you don't want to talk about the subject they post about.