The Vaccine

[Jim_in_Delaware]

That 3rd shot consent section is wrong IMO. Should be the FDA calling the shots not the CDC in regards to vaccines, drugs and medicine. With two top brass FDA officials stepping down due to government meddling and pushing them disregarding safety and bias it should raise eye brows for anyone concerned with what they are putting in their body. At this point I do not think I’ll be getting a booster or letting my child get the vaccine when she turns 12 in a month or so. Just too many unknowns and concerns for me to feel at ease about it.

Actually, regarding the FDA review of the vaccine data it means the OPPOSITE of what many people interpret. I had read ZERO news accounts that either Gruber or Krause left the Agency because of any actions that occurred at FDA during the vaccine review process. Gruber and Krause, according to news reports, left the Agency because of anger over the FDA's lack of autonomy in booster planning. Thus, I don't know where the statement, "disregarding safety and bias it should raise eye brows for anyone concerned with what they are putting in their body" come from.

No way would I let the departure of Gruber and Krause from the FDA weigh in on a decision to inoculate a child. My guess is that they likely would recommend children be vaccinated if the FDA review of the data shows the vaccines to be safe and effective. Quite honestly, the science is still out on younger children and the review of the data for the vaccines continues at the FDA. It is complicated by the fact that young children are not 'little adults'. When the time comes, and if the FDA approves the vaccine for young children, I think this is the time for parents to make the vaccination decision. I believe that having a vaccine discussion with parents would be welcomed by most Pediatricians.

If the Covid vaccine is ever proven to be safe and effective for younger children AND it is determined that it is in the best interests of the children to be vaccinated, will there ever be a mandate for schools? I have no idea. I would note, however, the all 50 State currently have State laws establishing vaccination requirements for school children. These laws often apply not only to children attending public schools but also to those attending private schools and day care facilities.

Jim

 

[mrcleanr6]

Ive had my 3rd shot for a month now. Phizer. It was no different than the first two. Zero side effects. Not even a sore arm. If i didnt watch them do any of them i would never have known i got a shot of anything.

 

[Evil Sports]

Something came across the screen on my local news today saying a booster was Not necessary. Im not looking to get one at this point

 

[crazy4life]

Something came across the screen on my local news today saying a booster was Not necessary. Im not looking to get one at this point

This is a good read on booster shots.

DEFINE_ME

 

[tabbibus]

Something came across the screen on my local news today saying a booster was Not necessary. Im not looking to get one at this point

I saw something to that effect. Haven't had time to read.

I want my booster.

 

[Evil Sports]

We cant get 80% of the population on board with 1 shot and now you want to complicate it and say 3 in necessary. No wonder.......

 

[tabbibus]

We cant get 80% of the population on board with 1 shot and now you want to complicate it and say 3 in necessary. No wonder.......

Wut? So because some people don't want to get the vaccine for x, y, or quack reason we should stop following science and just give up? Surely you are just being hyperbolic

 

[Evil Sports]

OMG!!! stop with follow the science already when it just got contradicted Again.

 

[tabbibus]

OMG!!! stop with follow the science already when it just got contradicted Again.

Please elaborate

 

[Evil Sports]

No

 

[Beachbummer]

@Evil Sports This is your chance to make a good point!

I'll try to make it for you.

What is settled Science? It changes minute by minute as we learn new things. How do I know you are not lying now if what you said 6 months ago would be a lie today? (Say, please don't wear masks...(because we have a shortage and we need them in the hospital...but we didn't say that second part outloud))

--End of attempt to channel @Evil Sports.You be the judge if I was fair in my attempt, I might have failed. This would be a great point for you to articulate fully so we all understand your perspective.

I add, Challenging what we think we know is part of the scientific method. We know what we know now, based on the DATA available. Look at the DATA for yourself and see if you reach the same conclusions "science" is pushing.
(Spoiler alert, for me I find it does match mostly when I find reasonable statements and the data that backs them up.)

 

[tabbibus]

No

That is not very constructive. I was honestly asking what you meant by that. Adults can be capable of having reasonable discussions but if you are unwilling or unable then by all means be that guy.

Now for the other adults in the room who may be interested, Mr. Evil's comment may be referring to the talks about possibly not needing a booster. That is something that is being talked about and if I understand correctly it is to try and focus on getting everyone caught up with the 2 shots. I don't know if this is the correct strategy or not.

On a side note, I would say that to think that we should not follow science because it may change course is a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method, and a very nearsighted approach.

@Beachbummer , I think that the word lie is a bit harsh. I may have recommend to my COPD patient to use medication A as the best therapy 2 years ago, and today research shows that that was incorrect and that meds B+C are best. Did I lie? Same situation here, I believe. I will agree with you that the initial mask recommendation was very poorly handled.

 

[Beachbummer]

@Beachbummer , I think that the word lie is a bit harsh. I may have recommend to my COPD patient to use medication A as the best therapy 2 years ago, and today research shows that that was incorrect and that meds B+C are best. Did I lie? Same situation here, I believe. I will agree with you that the initial mask recommendation was very poorly handled.

I think to the person questioning science, my channeling/interpretation/wording I used above is more likely to represent their view. (you lied!) You are doing God's work in framing it more realistically.."Come on, we know now what we didn't know then, it's not a lie if I'm not misleading you on purpose." but that is not everyone's take. (it happens to be yours and mine)

The ask is not to agree that it's correct, but to see it as someone's "valid" perspective with what they have seen so far. (A reasonable person could think "this" having seen only this information)

 

[Lurch]

Difficult to stay out of this one, @tabbibus - at the risk of conflating the idea of vaccines/boosters(I don't want to mischaracterize your post), your plea to 'follow the science", is not supported by the science in this case.

@crazy4life was kind enough to post a recent publication by Philip Krause on the lack of data re: boosters.

"The vaccines that are currently available are safe, effective, and save lives. The limited supply of these vaccines will save the most lives if made available to people who are at appreciable risk of serious disease and have not yet received any vaccine. Even if some gain can ultimately be obtained from boosting, it will not outweigh the benefits of providing initial protection to the unvaccinated. If vaccines are deployed where they would do the most good, they could hasten the end of the pandemic by inhibiting further evolution of variants. Indeed, WHO has called for a moratorium on boosting until the benefits of primary vaccination have been made available to more people around the world.18 This is a compelling issue, particularly as the currently available evidence does not show the need for widespread use of booster vaccination in populations that have received an effective primary vaccination regimen".

If one values their own protection from the virus over the goal of ending the pandemic, go ahead and get the third shot. I wouldn't fault anyone for that, I think it's human nature.

 

[haknslash]

Actually, regarding the FDA review of the vaccine data it means the OPPOSITE of what many people interpret. I had read ZERO news accounts that either Gruber or Krause left the Agency because of any actions that occurred at FDA during the vaccine review process. Gruber and Krause, according to news reports, left the Agency because of anger over the FDA's lack of autonomy in booster planning. Thus, I don't know where the statement, "disregarding safety and bias it should raise eye brows for anyone concerned with what they are putting in their body" come from.

No way would I let the departure of Gruber and Krause from the FDA weigh in on a decision to inoculate a child. My guess is that they likely would recommend children be vaccinated if the FDA review of the data shows the vaccines to be safe and effective. Quite honestly, the science is still out on younger children and the review of the data for the vaccines continues at the FDA. It is complicated by the fact that young children are not 'little adults'. When the time comes, and if the FDA approves the vaccine for young children, I think this is the time for parents to make the vaccination decision. I believe that having a vaccine discussion with parents would be welcomed by most Pediatricians.

If the Covid vaccine is ever proven to be safe and effective for younger children AND it is determined that it is in the best interests of the children to be vaccinated, will there ever be a mandate for schools? I have no idea. I would note, however, the all 50 State currently have State laws establishing vaccination requirements for school children. These laws often apply not only to children attending public schools but also to those attending private schools and day care facilities.

Jim

Only when it is FULL FDA approved (not EUA) then and only then will I consider it for my daughter. Nobody knows the long term effects and I’m not going to rush to judgment due to some stupid idiots in whitehouse or some person at state level requiring it. I’ll just pull my daughter out and figure it out from there.

In regards to your statement on my statement:

“....according to news reports, left the Agency because of anger over the FDA's lack of autonomy in booster planning. Thus, I don't know where the statement, "disregarding safety and bias it should raise eye brows for anyone concerned with what they are putting in their body" come from.”

I think you answered where it came from and can draw conclusions. They’re mad, and rightfully so, that politicians and big gov’t are indeed meddling in FDA’s business, hence lack of autonomy. Regardless, the final stance on the subject it true no matter where ones perspective may be coming from. People should research what they’re putting in their body and weigh the risks. Up to them and their doctor, not some politician or state officials IMHO.

 

[tabbibus]

Difficult to stay out of this one, @tabbibus - at the risk of conflating the idea of vaccines/boosters(I don't want to mischaracterize your post), your plea to 'follow the science", is not supported by the science in this case.

@crazy4life was kind enough to post a recent publication by Philip Krause on the lack of data re: boosters.

"The vaccines that are currently available are safe, effective, and save lives. The limited supply of these vaccines will save the most lives if made available to people who are at appreciable risk of serious disease and have not yet received any vaccine. Even if some gain can ultimately be obtained from boosting, it will not outweigh the benefits of providing initial protection to the unvaccinated. If vaccines are deployed where they would do the most good, they could hasten the end of the pandemic by inhibiting further evolution of variants. Indeed, WHO has called for a moratorium on boosting until the benefits of primary vaccination have been made available to more people around the world.18 This is a compelling issue, particularly as the currently available evidence does not show the need for widespread use of booster vaccination in populations that have received an effective primary vaccination regimen".

If one values their own protection from the virus over the goal of ending the pandemic, go ahead and get the third shot. I wouldn't fault anyone for that, I think it's human nature.

I think this is an interesting read, I just haven't had the time to do so. A few off the top of my head thoughts (that are subject to change once I read the paper):

- "limited supply" is not a problem we have here. We have surplus. Hence this would not be a good reason to not give booster to those with 2 shots
- The Israel data shows a pretty good reduction in severe cases after the booster shot. I don't think we should discount this.
- I 100% agree that goal #1 should be to get the vast majority of the population of to 2 shots. At the same time, if there is supply, and the risk/benefit equation favors the 3d shot, why not?

 

[the MfM]

Are there any other vaccines that one needs to sign a waiver of liability for?

 

[Evil Sports]

This is a Jet boat message board, my perspective matters none.

 

[tabbibus]

When the FDA states there’s a global supply limitation, I’ll believe it. This isn’t just a US problem, it’s a global one.

Yes, my home country Colombia has a shitty supply. And most of it is Russian and Chinese shots. I'm sure many countries are not well stocked. But unless we are going to send all our most of our stock to help these places (which in on itself is not a terrible idea), what should we do with our supply here? Wait for the rest to catch up? I don't see the benefit of that.

 

[Lurch]

But unless we are going to send all our most of our stock to help these places (which in on itself is not a terrible idea), what should we do with our supply here?

We piss away enough foreign aid with no benefit, so I’d be onboard with sending some, not all/most.