The Vaccine

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I have no clue what is going on. Before covid Normally 50% of beds were open. Now 100%+ of beds occupied until a week or two ago when it finally went under 100% again. I don't know if we import them too from other areas, but ICUs have been packed.

This is an interesting point. TMC has been known as a great medical center for a long time. Could have an influx of patients from other areas.

Jim

 

[haknslash]

We have had this similar discussion several times in this thread already. In most cases, state law does not trump federal law.

Jim

What it does is open paths for litigation. A mandate is also not a law.

Regardless people should have every opportunity to say and fight for what goes into their body. It is not the governments business, period, so long as this is still the USA. Mandates such as this are for dictators and overreaching governments. The federal government using OSHA as a vessel for this overreach is disgusting. I hope any company that forces mandates upon their employees collapses from their own demise. Looks like Ford is about to super stretch the time it’s going to take to get a new truck.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

*coming soon nationally thanks to 1/4 deadline CMS just announced

I seriously doubt it. Staffing shortages, due to vaccination issues, will be a regional or local problem, not a national issue.

Many health care systems across the country are reporting extremely high vaccinations rates for staff, with rates of 95 - 98% compliance. No doubt there will be health systems struggling with staffing (as some areas have low staff vaccination rates), but quite honestly, some were struggling before the pandemic. The one area that seems to be struggling with staffing is long care facilities.

Jim

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

What it does is open paths for litigation. A mandate is also not a law.

I'm not sure it does open a path for litigation, but it sure does cause a lot of confusion within that state.

From a post I made last month:

"Regarding vaccine requirements, at a federal level, two of the drivers I have seen are:

1) Federal funding through CMS (the power of the purse) with Medicare and Medicaid monies, and
2) the Commerce Clause of the Constitution - Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.

I think that most people don't understand the Commerce Clause or its widespread impact. This is a huge source of authority for many federal agencies, as Congress passes laws based of the authority of the Commerce Clause, and federal agencies then promulgate regulations based on the laws. OSHA authorities would likely derive from whatever employee health and safety laws they enforce that can also be traced back to the Commerce Clause.

Realistically (federal) laws and regulations are effective till they are recinded, replaced, or a court rules them unconstitutional."

Thus, I don't believe that state law in most cases, has any impact on federal law or regulation. If a state isn't happy with a law or regulation, they can go through the federal courts to challenge the law or regulation. Some of the states, may opt to do so, we will see.

Jim

 

[MidnightRider]

I'm not sure it does open a path for litigation, but it sure does cause a lot of confusion within that state.

From a post I made last month:

"Regarding vaccine requirements, at a federal level, two of the drivers I have seen are:

1) Federal funding through CMS (the power of the purse) with Medicare and Medicaid monies, and
2) the Commerce Clause of the Constitution - Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.

I think that most people don't understand the Commerce Clause or its widespread impact. This is a huge source of authority for many federal agencies, as Congress passes laws based of the authority of the Commerce Clause, and federal agencies then promulgate regulations based on the laws. OSHA authorities would likely derive from whatever employee health and safety laws they enforce that can also be traced back to the Commerce Clause.

Realistically (federal) laws and regulations are effective till they are recinded, replaced, or a court rules them unconstitutional."

Thus, I don't believe that state law in most cases, has any impact on federal law or regulation. If a state isn't happy with a law or regulation, they can go through the federal courts to challenge the law or regulation. Some of the states, may opt to do so, we will see.

Jim

You are probably right, I still like to see states standing up like this though.
I see like a protest which like any protest is sometimes the best option you have to bring attention to the issue you are unhappy and disagree with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[haknslash]

If a state isn't happy with a law or regulation, they can go through the federal courts to challenge the law or regulation. Some of the states, may opt to do so, we will see.

Jim

....And that is exactly what this bill is predicating. There are several states lining up for a suit so we shall see. Either way this mandate is a gross misuse of government overreach. The fact that had to go through OSHA is nothing more than a strong arm attempt at submission. I hope people fight til the end. Better than rolling over and taking it up the ass.

 

[the MfM]

I seriously doubt it. Staffing shortages, due to vaccination issues, will be a regional or local problem, not a national issue.

Many health care systems across the country are reporting extremely high vaccinations rates for staff, with rates of 95 - 98% compliance. No doubt there will be health systems struggling with staffing (as some areas have low staff vaccination rates), but quite honestly, some were struggling before the pandemic. The one area that seems to be struggling with staffing is long care facilities.

Jim

Travelers weren’t making cardiologist money pre COVID mandate here.

 

[the MfM]

*and we have one of the highest percentages of people who have taken the proven safe and effective vaccine.

 

[ripler]

....And that is exactly what this bill is predicating. There are several states lining up for a suit so we shall see. Either way this mandate is a gross misuse of government overreach. The fact that had to go through OSHA is nothing more than a strong arm attempt at submission. I hope people fight til the end. Better than rolling over and taking it up the ass.

The bill says that you can't be fired from your job for not taking the vaccine for medical or religious reasons. What people are failing to realize is that as an employee you still have the right to not get vaccinated, just show up to work every week with a negative Covid test (more than likely at your expense) and wear a mask while working. I'm pretty pissed on how our company has been handling Covid since day one and have come close to quitting because of it. A lot of the guys that work here are young and have done nothing to prevent themselves from getting Covid since day one and it really pissed me off because I was doing everything I could not to get Covid and for this reason it doesn't bother me that a mandate is coming down. If my company don't enforce it, I'll either request working from home full time or quit. I don't care that people are saying it's just the flu or what the survivability rate is, I don't want fucking Covid. The stupidity coming from the people I work with on why they aren't getting vaccinated amazes me. I'm to the point where I come to work and shut my office door, you want to talk knock and we can talk while you are in the hallway. Just like every other person, I'm tired of Covid, I'm tired of the politics over masks and vaccines, I'm tired of the mandates, and arguing about it isn't going to make Covid go away.

 

[the MfM]

The bill says that you can't be fired from your job for not taking the vaccine for medical or religious reasons. What people are failing to realize is that as an employee you still have the right to not get vaccinated, just show up to work every week with a negative Covid test (more than likely at your expense) and wear a mask while working. I'm pretty pissed on how our company has been handling Covid since day one and have come close to quitting because of it. A lot of the guys that work here are young and have done nothing to prevent themselves from getting Covid since day one and it really pissed me off because I was doing everything I could not to get Covid and for this reason it doesn't bother me that a mandate is coming down. If my company don't enforce it, I'll either request working from home full time or quit. I don't care that people are saying it's just the flu or what the survivability rate is, I don't want fucking Covid. The stupidity coming from the people I work with on why they aren't getting vaccinated amazes me. I'm to the point where I come to work and shut my office door, you want to talk knock and we can talk while you are in the hallway. Just like every other person, I'm tired of Covid, I'm tired of the politics over masks and vaccines, I'm tired of the mandates, and arguing about it isn't going to make Covid go away.

Did you tell them the vaccine is proven, safe, and effective?

 

[tabbibus]

@the MfM you keep making that joke. I'm not sure what are you trying to imply. Is that your way of saying that the vaccine is neither of those things? If so, I'd love to read what the rationale is for that.

 

[adrianp89]

The bill says that you can't be fired from your job for not taking the vaccine for medical or religious reasons. What people are failing to realize is that as an employee you still have the right to not get vaccinated, just show up to work every week with a negative Covid test (more than likely at your expense) and wear a mask while working. I'm pretty pissed on how our company has been handling Covid since day one and have come close to quitting because of it. A lot of the guys that work here are young and have done nothing to prevent themselves from getting Covid since day one and it really pissed me off because I was doing everything I could not to get Covid and for this reason it doesn't bother me that a mandate is coming down. If my company don't enforce it, I'll either request working from home full time or quit. I don't care that people are saying it's just the flu or what the survivability rate is, I don't want fucking Covid. The stupidity coming from the people I work with on why they aren't getting vaccinated amazes me. I'm to the point where I come to work and shut my office door, you want to talk knock and we can talk while you are in the hallway. Just like every other person, I'm tired of Covid, I'm tired of the politics over masks and vaccines, I'm tired of the mandates, and arguing about it isn't going to make Covid go away.

umm any company with a federal contract must have employees fully vaccinated. As an employee of this company you have no real choice except get Vaccinated for fired.

 

[haknslash]

The bill says that you can't be fired from your job for not taking the vaccine for medical or religious reasons. What people are failing to realize is that as an employee you still have the right to not get vaccinated, just show up to work every week with a negative Covid test (more than likely at your expense) and wear a mask while working. I'm pretty pissed on how our company has been handling Covid since day one and have come close to quitting because of it. A lot of the guys that work here are young and have done nothing to prevent themselves from getting Covid since day one and it really pissed me off because I was doing everything I could not to get Covid and for this reason it doesn't bother me that a mandate is coming down. If my company don't enforce it, I'll either request working from home full time or quit. I don't care that people are saying it's just the flu or what the survivability rate is, I don't want fucking Covid. The stupidity coming from the people I work with on why they aren't getting vaccinated amazes me. I'm to the point where I come to work and shut my office door, you want to talk knock and we can talk while you are in the hallway. Just like every other person, I'm tired of Covid, I'm tired of the politics over masks and vaccines, I'm tired of the mandates, and arguing about it isn't going to make Covid go away.

This is not entirely true. Depends if you’re private sector or do any state or federal work including government contractors. If you do there is no exception, for now. Just look at the police and fire departments that folks by the thousands are quitting because of forced mandates. Look a the sanitation depts in NY. I loved that people were throwing weeks of trash that’s been sitting on the streets due to mandates of sanitation and NY folks are fed up and toss that trash into De Blasio’s yard lol. Look at the hospitals that are firing the same people that fought through a pandemic last year with no vaccine and were heralded as ‘heroes’ yet now they spit in the face and fire them because they don’t want the jab. Yea ain’t no negative covid test option for those people. My work will also go that route since we are part of the government contractor programs.

As for working with people that don’t have the vaccine, it is what it is. You need to worry about yourself and not others. I work with plenty of people that don’t have the vaccine. Every single day I’m around over 500 people, many of which are not vaccinated. I think we have around 35% vaccinated. I can’t nor should I make that decision for them. Should I feel unsafe I guess I could leave and go work somewhere they enforce full vaccination. Otherwise you treat this like anything else and do the best you can with what you feel you must do. I don’t know where everyone got the idea that knowing what others do and put in their bodies somehow makes it your business but that’s the issue many are failing to realize. Be thankful you have an office you can shut the door to. I still have mine as well but they have built a stupid cubicle environment that 95% of my engineering team is working in, which I’d say 90% of the team is not vaccinated. I do much more different work and responsibilities than what others do my engineering dept plus I’m a loud talker in real life and told them it would kill my productivity if I had to work in a cubicle environment like they are. So for now I’ve been able to keep my office but that won’t last forever. I won’t work up in the cubicle area not because of COVID but because I think it’s a stupid ass area not really helping productivity.

Even if all your employees were vaccinated that doesn’t mean jack. They still can pass it along just as if they weren’t vaccinated so I’m not sure where people get this idea that if someone is vaccinated that it means anything to YOU. It only means something to the person that is vaccinated. So basically you just need to be vaccinated and ‘trust the science’ as they say. If the vaccine works and you get COVID chances are you will have mild to moderate symptoms. That’s also the case for most people that get COVID that aren’t vaccinated, ironically.

As for employees to pay for the COVID test. Lol that is not going to happen unless you want the country to implode overnight. I don’t know if you realize those things are not cheap, well the decent ones at least. My work pays $150ish a pop for them. The workers in the plant don’t make that kind of money to pay $150 a day for a test as that is just another mechanism to try and strong arm people unwillingly to get the jab since paying for tests would be too expensive. Sounds like a money scheme, which IMO falls in-line with a lot of this pandemic.

I think it’s sad how the media has some of y’all so scared to death that you’ll either demand OTHER people get a shot which WILL NOT protect YOU anymore than if they didn’t have a shot or you’ll quit or live inside a bubble your whole life. People have the tools and choices to do what they feel gives them the best odds. Making others around you forcibly put something in their body all for a fake sense to make you emotionally FEEL more protected is just flat out wrong. I blame Fauci, the CDC, our shitty ass government and our disgusting lying media for getting some of y’all so brainwashed and scared that you feel you must interject your beliefs onto someone else. I’m sorry but that’s just wrong. It’s not about protection or health it’s about power and control. If it were about the health then a mandate wouldn’t even be needed as proven alternatives are already available such a monoclonal antibodies yet big govt wants to throttle that because their value ($) is in the vaccines. Wake up!

Thank God we do not live in New Zealand or Australia. Seeing the asinine behavior by those in power there is straight up scary and yet somehow laughable. All around the globe from all walks of life there are billions of people fighting for their bodies rights in the streets against the tyrannical government forcing these shots on their people. It’s fucking clown world and I’m glad people are now fighting back against these evil people in power, as they should if they value their way of life. So this is what will happen here. People will quit or get fired and the country will slip deeper into more economic pit of hell because there will be less work force out there, less goods coming down the lines, less of everything. But hey, you’ll FEEL safer even though statistically you won’t be any safer from getting the virus. All for what? So you feel safer? I’m not following. Please explain how the person next to you has any effect should they have the shot or not.

 

[GiddYupJoe]

Something I am trying to wrap my head around is the following scenario…
Went to a concert last weekend. Had to show proof of vaxx or negative test within 72 hours prior (had to this for my son who is a 11). IF vaxx folks can carry and transmit the same as unvaxxed, why do I (vaxx’d) get a pass on having to show a negative test? I could have it and not know it the same as anyone else. Honest question

 

[Beachbummer]

They can carry and transmit, same as unvaccinated, but not at the same rate for sure. This is how I understand it.

May be worth to do some digging on the topic to get clarification.

Edit after reading a bit.... if vaccinated AND SICK, you can transmit it, but if vaccinated you also get sick much less than the unvaccinated pool. In theory once you realize you are sick/have fever you stop spreading because you stay home, so I'm guessing it's a measure that 1) promotes vaccination 2) Expects your sickness is much less likely because you were vaccinated.

From URL below...At the peak of the reported cases during that period of time, data shows unvaccinated people accounted for 736 cases for every 100,000 people. Vaccinated people accounted for 121 cases for every 100,000 people.

Vaccinated vs. unvaccinated: Federal data shows the number of COVID-19 breakthrough cases

According to the CDC, unvaccinated people were six times more likely to contract the virus.

www.wtsp.com

 

[ripler]

Did you tell them the vaccine is proven, safe, and effective?

I'm pretty sure you are being an ass.

No I told them not to worry because all of the conspiracy theories they repeat are true and that a higher power is going to keep Covid away from them.

To get vaccinated or not is a personal decision and it's not my responsibility to convince them otherwise. They are adults and can do what ever they want, but when your decision can adversely affect me and my family is when I have a problem. I can't change stupidity.

@adrianp89 You are correct about working for the government and need to be vaccinated, but is that still forcing a vaccine on people that don't want to get it? You still have a choice to find another job or get vaccinated, if you feel that strongly against the vaccine then find another job.

@haknslash
I understand that how vaccines work and from what I read not many people do. I never understood how people were saying the vaccines were to protect others when you can still carry and spread the virus. I got vaccinated as personal protection and only after it had full approval, whether that means anything or not, it just made me more comfortable. My issue is that I've done everything in my power to protect myself and my family, while a lot of people have the fuck it attitude. Every person I know that contracted Covid were unvaccinated and it kicked their ass, many were very close to going to the hospital and not one of them said they were glad they didn't get vaccinated.

My problem is that people would have taken Covid seriously in the beginning, we wouldn't be having this conversation and now the government is taking drastic measures. My company doesn't do government jobs but we do work for some large O&G companies that are very safety conscious and we are at their mercy when it comes to Covid protocol. So when our customer's decide to require their employees to be vaccinated you can be damn sure they will enforce the same rules on their contractors.

Yep I know how expensive they are and that's why smaller companies with low vaccination rates won't be able to afford to pay for a test every week. When the mandate goes into effect and no doubt my company will pay for the tests, I wonder if they'll be surprised when I tell them I want the same weekly compensation for being vaccinated.

Man this time of year makes me angry, boating season is over, fall allergies make me cranky and ski season isn't here yet.

 

[haknslash]

@haknslash
I understand that how vaccines work and from what I read not many people do. I never understood how people were saying the vaccines were to protect others when you can still carry and spread the virus. I got vaccinated as personal protection and only after it had full approval, whether that means anything or not, it just made me more comfortable. My issue is that I've done everything in my power to protect myself and my family, while a lot of people have the fuck it attitude. Every person I know that contracted Covid were unvaccinated and it kicked their ass, many were very close to going to the hospital and not one of them said they were glad they didn't get vaccinated.

My problem is that people would have taken Covid seriously in the beginning, we wouldn't be having this conversation and now the government is taking drastic measures. My company doesn't do government jobs but we do work for some large O&G companies that are very safety conscious and we are at their mercy when it comes to Covid protocol. So when our customer's decide to require their employees to be vaccinated you can be damn sure they will enforce the same rules on their contractors.

Yep I know how expensive they are and that's why smaller companies with low vaccination rates won't be able to afford to pay for a test every week. When the mandate goes into effect and no doubt my company will pay for the tests, I wonder if they'll be surprised when I tell them I want the same weekly compensation for being vaccinated.

I get it man and I know some people that get frustrated by this whole ordeal. The reality is what does it matter if people have a fuck it attitude though? That’s their business if they want to roll the dice with this virus. If your emotions are getting in the way then you need to check them and look at this from a human nature perspective. Would you want someone telling you to shove this shot in your body if you didn’t trust government (I don’t trust them any further than I can throw them) or they’re concerned with the unknown long term ramifications of it? I think not if you were in their shoes. Obviously you and I chose the path of unknown in getting the shot for the hopes it does protect us but there are no guarantees. Hell for all we know each of us with this shot could develop some crazy ass cancer or some shit in 1, 10 or 20 years who the hell knows and we will die because of our choices. Forcing that on someone else all in the guise of ‘emotional support’ or ‘my feelings’ is just wrong. I know you must know this.

As you’ve said, you’ve done all you feel you can do in your power to stay protected and honestly that’s all you can do. It’s as simple as that. Worrying about others does not increase your odds at all. Forcing this on your neighbor, your family member that doesn’t want it is not going to make it any safer for you. It’s just not yet some people feel they must go this route in this crazy era we are living in. It’s straight up crazy talk where we are right now as a whole. My suggestion is you’ve got your shots, so now just turn the news OFF and go on about your life. That’s really all you can do or live inside a bubble, which is not living by the way. We have to move on. There are vaccines and medicines available now to anyone should they want or need them and people have to make the choices for themselves. Not from big governe,tn or from me or you but for themselves amd their family. It’s their body and their choice. Should not be ours to meddle.

What people should be doing is stop looking at the trees and go after the forest instead, They should be focusing all of their money and efforts into investigating the root cause of this pandemic and do all measures to cease it from happening again. If that means stopping gain of function then so fucking be it. If that means high power people and those heralded as experts that have involvement then their heads gotta roll as well so that this never, ever happens again. Here we are fucking around worrying about a virus that got out that has a 98.5% survival rate among most people, yet what are we going to do when some lab or scientist at a gain of function facility lets out a virus that has a mortality rate of 50%? Yea we would be laughing at how stupid we were for focusing on COVID (not saying we shouldn’t focus on it or that its not serious) but when the big one comes it will be too late because nobody did anything to stop this shit that goes on behind closed doors to the public. We also wouldn’t have to mutilate fucking Beagle puppies and cut their vocal cords so we don’t have to hear them cry and scream while they infect them with biting flies and insects from lab tests. I wish I could cut Fauci’s vocal cords and mutilate his lying ass like they did those puppies! Wouldn’t that be great not having to worry about evil scientists doing gain of function research on viruses mutating cells and shit to see how it would affect humans? Man I’d love it!

 

[adrianp89]

@adrianp89 You are correct about working for the government and need to be vaccinated, but is that still forcing a vaccine on people that don't want to get it? You still have a choice to find another job or get vaccinated, if you feel that strongly against the vaccine then find another job.

Not that simple when your career is based in a field where almost everyone has a government contract. It's more of less throw away X amount years of career building and start a new career or get the vaccine. Anyone that finds this acceptable should really move to a different country where your freedoms are limited.

 

[tabbibus]

Not that simple when your career is based in a field where almost everyone has a government contract. It's more of less throw away X amount years of career building and start a new career or get the vaccine. Anyone that finds this acceptable should really move to a different country where your freedoms are limited.

If I don't get the flu shot, I get fired as well. Will be the same at all hospitals I would apply to. How is this different?

 

[haknslash]

If I don't get the flu shot, I get fired as well. Will be the same at all hospitals I would apply to. How is this different?

Flu shot has been around for how long? Not really an apples to apples comparison IMO. Even then, you made the choice to go into a career that you knew they may force things like mandatory flu shots. Same as military In that sense. That is not the same as forcing that upon everyone or every company around the world.