The Vaccine

[tabbibus]

@haknslash fascinating. Wish I knew WTF is wrong with singapore! Cases are very high.

One thing we forget is we are not trying to keep people from getting it. We are trying to make it so that this stupid virus is not a big deal anymore. If we get it, so fucking what? We get the sniffles and go chug a beer.

look at this

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&uniformYAxis=0&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_cases&hideControls=true&Metric=Cases+and+deaths&Interval=Weekly&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=SGP~North+America~KOR

South Korea has very few cases still. So lets leave them out. Singapore is pretty interesting. Lots of cases but mortality is much lower. I could not find a graph on hospitalizations. Thats the goal!

 

[Lurch]

I guess I should not be, but I am surprised that out of the 20% of American adults that are not yet vaccinated that we have so much whining in this thread.

Agreed - there is quite a bit of whining about those unvaccinated and the risk they're exposing us to.

 

[haknslash]

@haknslash fascinating. Wish I knew WTF is wrong with singapore! Cases are very high.

One thing we forget is we are not trying to keep people from getting it. We are trying to make it so that this stupid virus is not a big deal anymore. If we get it, so fucking what? We get the sniffles and go chug a beer.

look at this

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&uniformYAxis=0&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_cases&hideControls=true&Metric=Cases+and+deaths&Interval=Weekly&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=SGP~North+America~KOR

South Korea has very few cases still. So lets leave them out. Singapore is pretty interesting. Lots of cases but mortality is much lower. I could not find a graph on hospitalizations. Thats the goal!

yup it is indeed interesting.

I don’t think Singapore lists their hospitalizations publicly as I can’t find their data. I did look up other countries with high vaccination rates the the hospitalization are high or all over the place. Take Israel and Ireland for example. Keep in mind that Israel had nearly 80% of its eligible population vaccinated in August yet still had massive spikes in hospitalization.

 

[haknslash]

Ok....and your conclusion is that vaccines arent working because of those two charts????? REALLY?

Did I say they aren’t working? I am simply pointing out data and it’s from the science of vaccines. I can provide other counties if you need me to. My point is your statement is not true and could be interpreted as misinformation. The vaccine does not = immunity nor does it guarantee you won’t be hospitalized. Your statement reads as if you get vaccinated that’s how the virus goes away when the metrics simply don’t support that. Where did you read or hear that it does?

 

[haknslash]

I guess I should not be, but I am surprised that out of the 20% of American adults that are not yet vaccinated that we have so much whining in this thread.

Who’s whining? Can’t people have a debate without insults?

This mandate issue is very serious. We are talking over 10 million US citizens losing their jobs. Their livelihood. Their everything. That’s far more lives affected than anyone who has unfortunately died from this virus in the US. For what? Feelings? A false sense of security? Show me the data that says what is in their body is any business of yours. This mindset of pushing your beliefs literally into other people is sickening. If you want that, go to a country that is built for that.

 

[crazy4life]

In your hospital setting, I think going into that field, shots would be an expectation. My wife who just manages a dental network from home, did not have that expectation. (Same for 1000s of companies with government contracts. Make microchips for weapons or planes... gotta get vaccinated!

Looks like your wife would not have to be vaccinated.

The ETS includes some exceptions designed to satisfy the latter requirement. The rule does not apply to "employees who do not report to a workplace where other individuals are present," employees who are "working from home," or "employees who work exclusively outdoors."

https://reason.com/2021/11/04/the-details-of-oshas-vaccination-order-for-private-employees-suggest-several-ways-it-could-be-vulnerable-to-legal-challenges/

 

[Bruce]

This mandate issue is very serious.

Vaccination mandates are settled law and widespread in our country. What I would like you to understand is that your resistance is shared by a small minority of Americans and despite the wild claims about losses of jobs the actual numbers have been quite small. Most Americans are able to recognize the benefit of vaccination and care enough to get vaccinated.

 

[haknslash]

Vaccination mandates are settled law and widespread in our country. What I would like you to understand is that your resistance is shared by a small minority of Americans and despite the wild claims about losses of jobs the actual numbers have been quite small. Most Americans are able to recognize the benefit of vaccination and care enough to get vaccinated.

What are you talking about? I’m vaccinated. I also don’t care if the person next to me is vaccinated. It’s none of my business.

 

[Julian]

Did I say they aren’t working? I am simply pointing out data and it’s from the science of vaccines. I can provide other counties if you need me to. My point is your statement is not true and could be interpreted as misinformation. The vaccine does not = immunity nor does it guarantee you won’t be hospitalized. Your statement reads as if you get vaccinated that’s how the virus goes away when the metrics simply don’t support that. Where did you read or hear that it does?

Wow....and those two charts are your basis for your deeply thought through argument? 40 cases in S.Korea and 600 in Singapore? I'm sorry, but thats laughable. First of all we don't know if those are break through cases or cases in the unvaccinated population....but frankly it matters little. Freaking amazingly low numbers. Lower than the flu by far I think (but I honestly didn't bother doing the math).

Simply showing charts of cases counts doth not an argument make.

 

[haknslash]

Wow....and those two charts are your basis for your deeply thought through argument? 40 cases in S.Korea and 600 in Singapore? I'm sorry, but thats laughable. First of all we don't know if those are break through cases or cases in the unvaccinated population....but frankly it matters little. Freaking amazingly low numbers. Lower than the flu by far I think (but I honestly didn't bother doing the math).

Simply showing charts of cases counts doth not an argument make.

Soooo basically you can’t answer my question on where you read or heard that vaccines = virus goes away. Got it.

Look, don’t be mad at me or shoot the messenger. I’m just doing my part to stop misinformation from spreading. You stated that the way to quash the virus was to get vaccinated. I provided data that still to this day shows that people who are vaccinated can still be infected, can still be hospitalized and yes can also still die. So again for the 3rd time please share where you read that vaccines is the way to beat the virus otherwise just acknowledge that you shouldn’t have worded it that way and move on.

PS, above I provided more charts and data for other countries that are still battling the virus in both case numbers and hospitalizations yet have high vaccination rates. The data is there and on ourworldindata website has graphs for nearly anything you want to delve into. This is not some conspiracy theory as many of you like to toss out like it’s word of the day. It’s simply data that you can read and come to conclusions or see trends. That is all it is.

 

[Lurch]

Vaccination mandates are settled law and widespread in our country.

Show me one example of case law involving the Federal government mandating vaccines for the general public. If it's settled law, it should be a quick google search.

 

[Bruce]

Show me one example of case law involving the Federal government mandating vaccines for the general public. If it's settled law, it should be a quick google search.

Federal vaccine mandates have not occurred as you know. Regardless vaccine mandates are common and supported by law.

 

[Beachbummer]

@haknslash
I gave you a reasonable answer earlier, post 3379 based on actual data numbers. Could you read it and give your thoughts on it?

 

[Lurch]

Federal vaccine mandates have not occurred as you know. Regardless vaccine mandates are common and supported by law.

Right - it's all those States pushing OSHA to implement an ETS with a 4 month delay...some emergency.

 

[haknslash]

@haknslash
I gave you a reasonable answer earlier, post 3379 based on actual data numbers. Could you read it and give your thoughts on it?

I'm not saying vaccines don't work. The graphs show they have an affect. What I'm just trying to explain is that vaccines are not the end all be all cure to make a virus go away despite what Julian or others may think they will do. They are mechanisms or tools to cope and live with a virus, not eradicate it. The same mindset should honestly be heralded for all medications such as monoclonal antibodies which also have an amazing ability to prevent serious complications. IMO the vaccines should not be the end all means to fighting this virus. It should be fought with any and all proven or safe measures. Countries mandating to inject their citizens with vaccines is probably going to cause more harm and distrust than good but we shall see in the end. My gut tells me this will even make people less likely to get "normal" vaccines such as the flu and we may slip into an even worse shape dealing with that on a much larger scale. Who knows though.

 

[Julian]

Soooo basically you can’t answer my question on where you read or heard that vaccines = virus goes away. Got it.

Easy to google...but you didn't seem interested in having a thoughtful discussion.

Here is an interesting read on the UK....The takeaways: perhaps masking should also continue? Boosters in the UK are likely overdue (their population got vaxed early and fast). And hospalizations are significantly lower with vaxed population.

Why scientists worldwide are watching UK COVID infections

The country’s relaxation of measures such as masking — especially in England — is showing the limits of relying on vaccines alone.

www.nature.com

An article supporting vaccines reducing cases:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/06/14/covid-cases-vaccination-rates/

One that questions vaccines reducing cases (but admits they don't know why):

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Neither of which say vaccines alone are the answer....boosters are needed, and continued social containment is advised (hand washing, masks, distancing etc).

An interesting one from Israel that says vaccines are reducing severity and that those first vaccinated (the elderly) need boosters....and boosters help

Israeli doctors find severe COVID-19 breakthrough cases mostly in older, sicker patients

In Israel's COVID-19 wards, doctors are learning which vaccinated patients are most vulnerable to severe illness, amid growing concerns about instances in which the shots provide less protection against the worst forms of the disease.

www.reuters.com

 

[haknslash]

Honestly none of that is news to me. Also none of that is going to say that vaccines = quash the virus. In theory you could have country of 100% vaccinated and the virus would still be there and able to spread. People would get sick, although likely mild to moderate symptoms. A small percentage would still get hospitalized and a small percentage would still die. It will be with us forever in our lifetime. Many immunologists suggest it will be a endemic disease. We will have to live with it one way or the other.

The coronavirus is here to stay — here’s what that means

A Nature survey shows many scientists expect the virus that causes COVID-19 to become endemic, but it could pose less danger over time.

www.nature.com

 

[scbruet]

vaccines have eradicated other diseases because of 90+% of population being vaccinated though right? I think the covid argument that it will always be here is because of mutations and maybe those other diseases didn't mutate as easily?

 

[Julian]

I'm not saying vaccines don't work. The graphs show they have an affect. What I'm just trying to explain is that vaccines are not the end all be all cure to make a virus go away despite what Julian or others may think they will do. They are mechanisms or tools to cope and live with a virus, not eradicate it. The same mindset should honestly be heralded for all medications such as monoclonal antibodies which also have an amazing ability to prevent serious complications. IMO the vaccines should not be the end all means to fighting this virus. It should be fought with any and all proven or safe measures. Countries mandating to inject their citizens with vaccines is probably going to cause more harm and distrust than good but we shall see in the end. My gut tells me this will even make people less likely to get "normal" vaccines such as the flu and we may slip into an even worse shape dealing with that on a much larger scale. Who knows though.

And please quote me when I said vaccines are the only answer! You seem to have projected that onto me because I said that vaccines are helping. I've had other posts talking in depth about the benefits of masking too. You are correct that there is no single silver bullet. But a collection of things that will help. But suggesting vaccines arent helping because of a MASSIVE spike of 40 cases in Korea is simply absurd. Increased case counts alone are relatively meaningless (not totally).

Glad to see you've backed off saying vaccines arent helping:

"This is not true at all"

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were asserting....but it seemed pretty darn direct to me.

 

[haknslash]

And please quote me when I said vaccines are the only answer!

I never said that you said that. I simply restated what you said and you seem hell bent on trying to persuade me otherwise on what you actually said.

You seem to have projected that onto me because I said that vaccines are helping. I've had other posts talking in depth about the benefits of masking too. You are correct that there is no single silver bullet. But a collection of things that will help. But suggesting vaccines arent helping because of a MASSIVE spike of 40 cases in Korea is simply absurd. Increased case counts alone are relatively meaningless (not totally).

I am not projected anything onto you. I'm simply asking (again) where you read or heard that vaccines are the way to quash the virus. I provided data, no matter how insignificant YOU think it may be, that shows the vaccines does not = quash or crushing or eradicating the virus. It will be here with us forever, yes even after your 110th booster.

Glad to see you've backed off saying vaccines arent helping:

"This is not true at all"

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were asserting....but it seemed pretty darn direct to me.

I never said vaccines aren't helping. Where did you read that?