The Vaccine

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Show me one example of case law involving the Federal government mandating vaccines for the general public. If it's settled law, it should be a quick google search.

Aside from should the federal mandate or not, it is clear that unless federal court says otherwise, the federal government has the authority at this time to issue mandates. I'll post this again;

"Regarding vaccine requirements, at a federal level, two of the drivers I have seen are:

1) Federal funding through CMS (the power of the purse) with Medicare and Medicaid monies, and
2) the Commerce Clause of the Constitution - Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.

I think that most people don't understand the Commerce Clause or its widespread impact. This is a huge source of authority for many federal agencies, as Congress passes laws based of the authority of the Commerce Clause, and federal agencies then promulgate regulations based on the laws. OSHA authorities would likely derive from whatever employee health and safety laws they enforce that can also be traced back to the Commerce Clause.

Realistically (federal) laws and regulations are effective till they are recinded, replaced, or a court rules them unconstitutional."

Now, if some group (maybe a state) challenges the OSHA rule in federal court, maybe a court would find them arbitrary and capricious, or maybe not. Seems to me, it would be harder to challenge the funding issue, but this might happen as well. I believe both would still be valid, however, unless a court rules otherwise.

Jim

 

[haknslash]

Let me try and paint a broader crush stroke since selectively choosing countries is confusing to some at what my point is. Again for those not keeping score, I'm vaccinated and yes they do help. Don't bludgeon me bro.

Take all of Europe for example...

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

@jlcj7
Legislative branch is not under executive control, but it would go a long way to building trust that they were subject to osha mandates affecting work place. After all, is a work place with people packed in tight.

Best way to lead is by example, eat the dog food you make.

I will add that federal employees are mandated to be vaccinated. At the FDA, all employees needed to declare their vaccination status by 10/15/21, and be fully vaccinated by 11/22/21. Part of declaring vaccination status was uploading our vaccination card or other medical record.

Jim

 

[haknslash]

Here is an interesting statistic. Going by the chart below, the middle and upper class (I hate identifying people by income classes but is what it is) are well above those listed as low income status in terms of vaccination rate. The majority of America is lower middle class IMO. They are also the bread winners and the spine for this country. Doesn't seem like a mandate is even needed for this class of people as they are well on their way to participating. The low income individuals seem to be the ones more vaccine hesitant, for whatever their reasoning is. So with that being said, explain to me how decimating a large chunk of the American work force of lower middle income via vaccine mandates they're actively participating in makes sense? It would seem if you want to get the ones onboard who are most reluctant they would do a better job at convincing those folks. a lot of the vaccine hesitancy can be attributed to the poor handling and transparency of this administration, the CDC, Fauci and mostly by the MSM. If people were just honest and didn't move the goal post when confronted for hard truths, no matter how bad or good, then I think that would go a long ways to getting people onboard. But I don't think that's really their goal or so it doesn't seem.

 

[Lurch]

Aside from should the federal mandate or not, it is clear that unless federal court says otherwise, the federal government has the authority at this time to issue mandates. I'll post this again;

"Regarding vaccine requirements, at a federal level, two of the drivers I have seen are:

1) Federal funding through CMS (the power of the purse) with Medicare and Medicaid monies, and
2) the Commerce Clause of the Constitution - Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.

I think that most people don't understand the Commerce Clause or its widespread impact. This is a huge source of authority for many federal agencies, as Congress passes laws based of the authority of the Commerce Clause, and federal agencies then promulgate regulations based on the laws. OSHA authorities would likely derive from whatever employee health and safety laws they enforce that can also be traced back to the Commerce Clause.

Realistically (federal) laws and regulations are effective till they are recinded, replaced, or a court rules them unconstitutional."

Now, if some group (maybe a state) challenges the OSHA rule in federal court, maybe a court would find them arbitrary and capricious, or maybe not. Seems to me, it would be harder to challenge the funding issue, but this might happen as well. I believe both would still be valid, however, unless a court rules otherwise.

Jim

My question wasn't directed at the myriad ways the fed govt inserts itself into American's lives. The CMS route pertains to orgs that are already taking money from the Feds.

As to the #2 - the SC already ruled that a mandate to buy health insurance wasn't justified by the commerce clause. I don't see how mandating a vax to run a business is any more relevant to interstate commerce.

Interesting discussion, but I'm waiting on examples of settled case law.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

My question wasn't directed at the myriad ways the fed govt inserts itself into American's lives. The CMS route pertains to orgs that are already taking money from the Feds.

As to the #2 - the SC already ruled that a mandate to buy health insurance wasn't justified by the commerce clause. I don't see how mandating a vax to run a business is any more relevant to commerce.

Interesting discussion, but I'm waiting on examples of settled case law.

My point is that the federal gov't doesn't need settled case law to implement what they have decided to implement.

Realistically, federal laws and regulations are effective unless a federal court says otherwise or they are recinded or replaced.

Jim

 

[Lurch]

My point is that the federal gov't doesn't need settled case law to implement what they have decided to implement.

Realistically, federal laws and regulations are effective unless a federal court says otherwise or they are recinded or replaced.

Jim

I'm not arguing the opposite, one doesn't need to look back further than the eviction moratorium to see that Fedgov does what it wants. Certain posters are conflating this mandate with previous State mandates and claiming the courts have already agreed with them.

 

[tabbibus]

This is hilarious on so many levels.

Rodgers also said he consulted with Joe Rogan.

“I’ve been doing a lot of stuff that he recommended in his podcasts and on the phone to me, and I’m going to have the best immunity possible now based on the 2.5 million-person study from Israel that the people who get COVID and recover have the most robust immunity. I’m thankful for people like Joe stepping up and using their voice,” Rodgers said.

The quarterback also said he is “taking mononuclear antibodies, Ivermectin, zinc, Vitamin C and D, HCQ, and I feel pretty incredible

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2021/11/05/aaron-rodgers-blames-woke-mob-in-bizarre-pat-mcafee-interview/amp/

 

[Julian]

I never said that you said that. I simply restated what you said and you seem hell bent on trying to persuade me otherwise on what you actually said.



I am not projected anything onto you. I'm simply asking (again) where you read or heard that vaccines are the way to quash the virus. I provided data, no matter how insignificant YOU think it may be, that shows the vaccines does not = quash or crushing or eradicating the virus. It will be here with us forever, yes even after your 110th booster.



I never said vaccines aren't helping. Where did you read that?

So when you QUOTED me saying "the more vaccinated we have the better off we are", and replied with "This is not true at all", what did you mean? You picked out JUST that sentence. Often there is a mix of things being replied to....but you were VERY DIRECT. So please help me understand how I confused your statement....and why it took me in the wrong direction. And how you followed it up with charts attempting to prove that same point.

Perhaps you didn't mean to say "at all", and meant to say...."they do work to a degree" or something like that?

You complain about hyperbole yet make absolute statements like this....and then complain when people question your absolutes.

 

[Bruce]

I want some of those "mononuclear antibodies"!

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Just found this article about state suits against the federal vaccine mandate, https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/11-states-file-suit-bidens-business-vaccine-mandate-80989771

My prediction is that legally this won't be settled any time soon. Will likely see this go all the way to the Supreme Court no matter the outcome.

Jim

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I want some of those "mononuclear antibodies"!

I think this may be a version of monoclonal antibodies that use nuclear fission to destroy the virus?

Jim

 

[the MfM]

Here is an interesting statistic. Going by the chart below, the middle and upper class (I hate identifying people by income classes but is what it is) are well above those listed as low income status in terms of vaccination rate. The majority of America is lower middle class IMO. They are also the breed winners and the spine for this country. Doesn't seem like a mandate is even needed for this class of people as they are well on their way to participating. The low income individuals seem to be the ones more vaccine hesitant, for whatever their reasoning is. So with that being said, explain to me how decimating a large chunk of the American work force of lower middle income via vaccine mandates they're actively participating in makes sense? It would seem if you want to get the ones onboard who are most reluctant they would do a better job at convincing those folks. a lot of the vaccine hesitancy can be attributed to the poor handling and transparency of this administration, the CDC, Fauci and mostly by the MSM. If people were just honest and didn't move the goal post when confronted for hard truths, no matter how bad or good, then I think that would go a long ways to getting people onboard. But I don't think that's really their goal or so it doesn't seem.

View attachment 166649

Obviously we need to mandate all welfare recipients need to get the safe and effective vaccine in order to remain eligible for welfare.

 

[haknslash]

So when you QUOTED me saying "the more vaccinated we have the better off we are", and replied with "This is not true at all", what did you mean? You picked out JUST that sentence. Often there is a mix of things being replied to....but you were VERY DIRECT. So please help me understand how I confused your statement....and why it took me in the wrong direction. And how you followed it up with charts attempting to prove that same point.

Perhaps you didn't mean to say "at all", and meant to say...."they do work to a degree" or something like that?

You complain about hyperbole yet make absolute statements like this....and then complain when people question your absolutes.

You did not say "the more vaccinated we have the better off we are". I’m not following. Let me show you what you said…



And to THAT statement it is not true. The vaccine does not = quash virus. That was my point.

 

[Ronnie]

I just spoke to my MD about a few things but where getting a Covid booster shot is concerned he advised me to get the Pfizer or Moderna booster instead of the j&j booster when I told him I didn’t want to mix brands. I forgot why but since I’m not hearing about a lot of people experiencing adverse side effects to any booster shots I will go with his recommendation.

On a related note, I got my annual flu shot last week around noon. Walked right up to the table. I went back for an unrelated reason at 3/3:30 the same day and there was a line out the door for a flu shot. Most of the people in line were Hispanic, and at least a third of them were kids under the age of 12 I think, not sure this matters, just an observation.

More businesses around me are requiring proof of vaccination before entering or being served. Not a big deal, I just keep a picture of my card on my phone. No one is being forced to get vaccinated but many are being forced to decide if they want to be served and / or keep their jobs. I chose to keep eating and shopping indoors and to keep my job.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Here is an interesting statistic. Going by the chart below, the middle and upper class (I hate identifying people by income classes but is what it is) are well above those listed as low income status in terms of vaccination rate. The majority of America is lower middle class IMO. They are also the breed winners and the spine for this country. Doesn't seem like a mandate is even needed for this class of people as they are well on their way to participating. The low income individuals seem to be the ones more vaccine hesitant, for whatever their reasoning is. So with that being said, explain to me how decimating a large chunk of the American work force of lower middle income via vaccine mandates they're actively participating in makes sense? It would seem if you want to get the ones onboard who are most reluctant they would do a better job at convincing those folks. a lot of the vaccine hesitancy can be attributed to the poor handling and transparency of this administration, the CDC, Fauci and mostly by the MSM. If people were just honest and didn't move the goal post when confronted for hard truths, no matter how bad or good, then I think that would go a long ways to getting people onboard. But I don't think that's really their goal or so it doesn't seem.

View attachment 166649

I believe that many low-income workers still want to get vaccinated, but it's not always easy for them to do so.

Quite often they have less access to health care. Thus, they may also find it harder to get vaccinated and may worry about having to take unpaid time off to get vaccinated and recover from any side effects from getting vaccinated.

Jim

 

[haknslash]

I believe that many low-income workers still want to get vaccinated, but it's not always easy for them to do so.

Quite often they have less access to health care. Thus, they may also find it harder to get vaccinated and may worry about having to take unpaid time off to get vaccinated and recover from any side effects from getting vaccinated.

Jim

I don’t know about where you live but where I live there are vaccination sites available to anyone and I certainly don’t live in a posh city lol. I live in rural area but there are still places to go. Any drug store, Walmart etc that all people in my state shop at. There have also been vaccination drives in these areas. I don’t think access to the vaccine has been their issue.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I don’t know about where you live but where I live there are vaccination sites available to anyone and I certainly don’t live in a posh city lol. I live in rural area but there are still places to go. Any drug store, Walmart etc that all people in my state shop at. There have also been vaccination drives in these areas. I don’t think access to the vaccine has been their issue.

LOL, you asked a generic question, "The low income individuals seem to be the ones more vaccine hesitant, for whatever their reasoning is." so I gave you a generic answer. ?‍

As I noted it's not just vaccine available, but getting time off and losing pay for this time off.

Jim

 

[Julian]

You did not say "the more vaccinated we have the better off we are". I’m not following. Let me show you what you said…

View attachment 166666

And to THAT statement it is not true. The vaccine does not = quash virus. That was my point.

So your saying that you translate "The more we quash" to the absolute of "end or eliminate completely"? Sorry....the more you talk the more you stretch things.

I've made my point. The more vaccinated we have, the better off we are. Vaccines won't end covid, but they sure so help us return to a more normal life. Reducing hospitalizations and taking a major burden off our healthcare system....not to mention saving thousands of lives. Helping to quash the disastrous impacts from this virus (a 100% true statement).

Let's hope the lawsuits do go all the way to the SC. Someone earlier said something about what if the mortality is 50% for the next one. Imagine if we can't mandate a vaccine for that virus! Lets make it 100% death rate and a 100% effective vaccine with a .01% mortality rate for sake of argument. Do we allow people to walk around spreading guaranteed death? Or do you kill 1 in 10,000 people to prevent extinction? Wouldn’t want to be the one planning that pandemic response! I think given today's society things would devolve into something out of a movie!

 

[haknslash]

Not stretching anything. I think we both are agreeing on the same thing in principle but that you’re just reluctant to agree your wording wasn’t the best.

People need to realize that you can be for vaccines but also be against mandates. If we don’t hold the line this government will not stop. I can already see them not stopping in the future once everyone realizes vaccines and boosters alone aren’t going to make this go away any time soon.This virus is too inconsistent to gauge what it’s going to do. One thing is for certain I know what power does to people. I just don’t agree with interfering with other peoples lives especially their bodies. Not my cup of tea.