The Vaccine

[MidnightRider]

The federal workplace mandates for federal employees and contractors are "based on science." With a vaccinated workforce there is a lower chance (note, I did not say a zero chance) of Covid spreading through the federal workplace. However, the execution of the mandate on federal employee and contractors seems to taken the easy (lazy) way out. Even though only a very tiny percentage of these employees would be 100% remote, I could understand an exemption for these folks, if requested. I have been working 100% remotely for the past 18 months, but I could potentially go into my office for a meeting, so me being mandated to get vaccinated makes sense.

Jim

I respect that opinion and see how you get there but I've become a bit more jaded than you. In my opinion this wasn't a "lazy way out" this was purposeful because they could get away with it. With OSHA they couldn't get away with it. With OSHA it gets stickier, what are they going to do mandate hardhats for people not on site working remote too? It wouldn't align with OSHA's purview. This whole thing "looks like based on science" because it happens to align with science on some levels but make no mistake both the Federal and OSHA mandates are dripping with political motive and agenda. You will likely disagree and of course are free to do so but from my perspective it has become more obvious every day since the beginning how much the "moves" of governing and administrative bodies is much more motivated by politics, money, and saving face than it is by science.

I notice (in general) that very many will agree this whole thing has been politicized and also use that fact to denounce the general population's actions, but very few will acknowledge that those in politics and administration making these decisions are also very politically motivated in the decisions they are making.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

@MidnightRider, I hear what you are saying. While I may not agree 100% with your opinion, I am glad we can have this discussion!

Jim

 

[Tgen2013]

Well Fed appeals court has held up Brandons edict.
We can yakitty yakitty all day,..........................we are a country of laws, final word is yet to come. Tough shit on opposition, (who ever it may be).


Prediction, SCOTUS will tell him to pound sand. You heard it here................
Maybe they will ignore that too.
Nothing would surprise me with this clown show.

 

[Bruce]

Prediction, SCOTUS will tell him to pound sand

What is your legal theory for why the SCOTUS would rule against the OSHA regulation?

Do you think the SCOTUS will limit the regulation or completely invalidate it?

 

[NewBoater]

What is your legal theory for why the SCOTUS would rule against the OSHA regulation?

Do you think the SCOTUS will limit the regulation or completely invalidate it?

Because people should have the right to not get the jab or have weekly testing done. They will never have 100% vaccination rate so this mandate isn’t really accomplishing much as most will just get weekly test in my opinion. Illegals entering don’t even have to get the jab. This isn’t going to solve much. Will be interesting if the SC overrules this. But my guess is it won’t and the 100 employee thing stands.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I have no idea if the OSHA mandate stay will, or will not, stand and we will just have to wait and see what the court says. As there are cases in multiple courts, there likely will be an consolidation of the cases into one, and the stay will either be continued or vacated. I expect that eventually this will end up before the Supreme Court.

The irony is that several of the states are claiming that the federal OSHA vaccine mandate is over reach by the federal government and will have a negative impact on business. Yet, these same states do not consider their state anti-vaccine mandates to also be an over reach on these same businesses? Honestly, from a business standpoint, I don't see any difference.

Jim

 

[Tgen2013]

What is your legal theory for why the SCOTUS would rule against the OSHA regulation?

Do you think the SCOTUS will limit the regulation or completely invalidate it?

The court will surely side with states rights to decide on any type of requirement or enforcement. It will invalidate any federal requirement which back door the states ability to decide. Especially the back door way in which Brandon is trying to use private business. They may provide legal remedy or ability for civil tort for any employees which have been terminated, and not provided medical/religious or other exemptions.
The exceptions to their verdict will be obviously any federal or military jurisdiction.

Crystal ball away, we will see.........................................................

OSHA regs are only applied piecemeal with no consistency, (industries, occupations). Example, coal mines live by them, fire departments also.
Fields which routinely fly in the face of OSHA, and are widely accepted practice,............law enforcement. The service industries, it would pit them all out of buisness.

 

[Farny]

Some reports Gavin Newsom suffering an adverse effect?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

The court will surely side with states rights to decide on any type of requirement or enforcement. It will invalidate any federal requirement which back door the states ability to decide. Especially the back door way in which Brandon is trying to use private business. They may provide legal remedy or ability for civil tort for any employees which have been terminated, and not provided medical/religious or other exemptions.
The exceptions to their verdict will be obviously any federal or military jurisdiction.

Crystal ball away, we will see.........................................................

I would respectfully disagree, as the Supremacy Clause in the U.S. Constitution establishes that federal law, generally, take precedence over state laws.

The federal court may find the OSHA rule to indeed be over reach and the rule to be arbitrary and capricious, or maybe not. My guess is that if they determine the OSHA ruling to be an over reach, they may also feel the same way about the state business anti-vaccine mandates as well.

Of course this could be subject to appeal, but the federal courts may be very lenient with employer mandates. From a CNN Business report a few hours ago:

"A US federal judge on Monday ruled United Airlines can impose a Covid-19 vaccine mandate on its employees that only provides unpaid leave for workers who are exempted for medical or religious reasons.

US District Judge Mark Pittman in Fort Worth, Texas, rejected arguments by employees that the airline was improperly putting them in an "impossible position" by forcing them to choose a vaccine or unpaid leave.

Pittman was critical of United Airlines' (UAL) approach toward employees seeking religious exemptions, but said in the end, human resources policy was up the company and no employee was forced to accept a vaccine."

Jim

 

[Tgen2013]

(I would respectfully disagree, as the Supremacy Clause in the U.S. Constitution establishes that federal law, generally, take precedence over state laws.)

Not with the court the way it is now. Two of the justices maybe. Not the rest.

Objectively, and devils advocate, its the easy way out to leave it to the states. Vaccines do not rise to the intrusive requirement required as say "slavery". I can say that confidently with 2/3 of the justices that are there now.

I will be saying "I told you so" when it happens.

On a happier note:

My buds wife who had been on deaths doorstep with Covid after delivering a baby and was on a respirator for weeks has been removed from said device. (This in a good way). She has since been relocated to a special recovery hospice near Chicago, and is doing better every day.
I got my flu shot today too.

 

[Bruce]

@Tgen2013, I believe the State's Rights issue for the SCOTUS is not the legality of this new OSHA Standard but of all OSHA Standards. If OSHA has the authority to enforce any standard in the States the same should apply to this one. With OSHA having been around for 50 years I expect there is existing case law that will be relevant. Atlas Roofing Co. v. Occupational Safety and Health Review Comm'n, 430 U.S. 442 (1977) might be one example.

OSHA does appear to have been crafted to avoid collisions with State's Rights for example OSHA Standards do not apply to state governments and schools.

This is the complete standard for anyone who is interested https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...tion-and-testing-emergency-temporary-standard

 

[Bruce]

Interesting statistics on CoVID-19 infections in Texas from January 15th to October 1st 2021.

"Unvaccinated Texans died from COVID-19 at 40 times the rate of vaccinated Texans and were 45 times more likely to test positive for the disease in 2021, according to a new study from the Texas Department of State Health Services."

"Kids 12-17 who were unvaccinated tested positive at 65 times the rate of fully vaccinated kids during the January to October study timeframe."

Unvaccinated Texans 45x more likely to test positive for COVID, 40x more likely to die, according to new health department study

The Texas Department of State Health services reviewed millions of records to match vaccination status, testing and death information from 2021

www.wfaa.com

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

@Tgen2013, I believe the State's Rights issue for the SCOTUS is not the legality of this new OSHA Standard but of all OSHA Standards. If OSHA has the authority to enforce any standard in the States the same should apply to this one. With OSHA having been around for 50 years I expect there is existing case law that will be relevant. Atlas Roofing Co. v. Occupational Safety and Health Review Comm'n, 430 U.S. 442 (1977) might be one example.

OSHA does appear to have been crafted to avoid collisions with State's Rights for example OSHA Standards do not apply to state governments and schools.

This is the complete standard for anyone who is interested https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...tion-and-testing-emergency-temporary-standard

This post above is spot-on.

There is be no doubt that OSHA has the right to promulgate workplace safety requirements. The Commerce Clause of the Constitution - Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, gives Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes. Congress has passes OSHA laws based of the authority of the Commerce Clause, and OSHA has promulgate regulations based on these laws.

Here is a link to the BST-Holdings v. OSHA 5th Circuit Motion for Stay. Quickly skimming through it, while there are other claims, the main subject the Petitioners are arguing is against the validity of the Emergency Temporary Standards (ETS), arguing that the rule should have been subject to the normal notice and comment rulemaking process.

My guess is that the federal court will likely give a narrow ruling based on whether the ETS was indeed warranted (as OSHA claims) or is not warranted as the petitioners claim (finding it to be arbitrary and capricious.)

Jim

 

[Bruce]

Some reports Gavin Newsom suffering an adverse effect?

I suggest avoiding whatever source provided that disinformation.

An altered video is being circulated.

Video claiming to show Calif. Gov. Gavin Newsom suffering side effects from COVID-19 booster shot is fake

The original video was lifted from Newsom’s Twitter account. In that, he did not appear to suffer from any paralysis and spoke straight into the camera.

www.11alive.com

 

[Tgen2013]

As of today the 5th circuit has clearly stated that the mandate made by OSHA is in "clear violation of statutory and constitutional law."
That's not my opinion or paraphrase, its in the decision.

The Brandon administrations response is to "ignore" the court s directive. Oh buddy, stand the F-ck by, this will get interesting fast.

Note:

-Early on OSHA (September) directed the recipient companies of this mandate to NOT report side effects. That is a fact. (altering true data by omission).
-Outside of medical/hospital fields, the institutional data collected from affected businesses dis proved the need for the vaccinations statistically. (Lethality, contagion).
- OSHA themselves admitted on record t the litigating parties that they did not have legislative authority to impose this, but were being directed by the white house.

None of this is miss-information. As a matter of fact it will become quite clear as this case makes its way up the chain.
Like Brandon isn't screwing up enough. Imagine when he tries to ignore SCOTUS WHEN that comes to fruition.

**Remember kids, we have three branches of government.
These clowns think the executive is the only one with power. The issue is mute, procedure is everything.
The Legislative is the ONLY branch which can issue and impose any mandate LEGALLY. This with respect to the spirit AND letter of law.
Yes Brandon it might not be convenient or efficient, but it is America.

Watch this, pretty smart guy, lays it out correctly...........

 

[Ronnie]

Here is a screen shot of a text I got unexpectedly today.

My healthcare provider sent me a similar message weeks ago. We have decided to get our boosters shots as a family when my son is on break from school.

@Jim_in_Delaware, the ignore feature has done wonders for my blood pressure. just saying, life is to short to get worked up over somethings.

I agree with you on Rodgers but admire how Kyrie Irving (sp?) of the NBA handled it though, refused to get vaccinated but also sat out instead of play. Rodgers got the best of both worlds through a misrepresentation that he is now trying to justify, I’d be pissed if I was a teammate of his.

 

[Bruce]

@Tgen2013, the Fifth Circuit has issued two orders in BST Holdings v. OSHA. Neither contain the language above.

Please reduce the misinformation and politics in your postings. Discussion of law is reasonable adding politics to that is not.

These are the two orders;

https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/unpub/21/21-60845.0.pdf

https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/unpub/21/21-60845.1.pdf

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

"As of today the 5th circuit has clearly stated that the mandate made by OSHA is in "clear violation of statutory and constitutional law."
That's not my opinion or paraphrase, its in the decision.

The Brandon administrations response is to "ignore" the court s directive. Oh buddy, stand the F-ck by, this will get interesting fast."

I am not aware that the 5th Court has made any ruling on the case itself. They have ruled on the stay related to the case filing in their court.

The 5th Circuit Court granting a stay in this case has been unusual as the mandate does not require employers or employees to act until January 4th. When several petitioners are challenging the same rule in several circuits, the cases are ultimately consolidated in one circuit through a process known as the "multicircuit lottery." A Judicial Panel on Multidistrict Litigation then conducts a blind lottery and chooses a circuit at random and all the cases challenging a rule are transferred to it. This could result in another court (the one winning the lottery) end up hearing the cases filed in the Fifth Circuit and lifting the Fifth Circuit's stay.

The Biden administration telling employers that they should move forward with plans for the mandate, despite the stay issued by the 5th Circuit Court is not ignoring the court's directive, as there is no ruling on the case in front of the 5th Circuit Court and the cases have not yet been assigned by the multicircuit lottery. It would behoove larger companies to start planning (even if they don't implement) the mandate as this likely will not be settled until right before the date of the ETS. Of course, firms are free to plan for the mandate or not, especially since we are still two months from the implementation date.

Jim

 

[MidnightRider]

No matter how this plays out, in the spirit of the fast approaching Thanks Giving day, I'm thankful that in America, there is a way to challenge the White House / Government, that there are still those willing to challenge, and that this is being challenged. We all will fall on different sides of the issue and what we hope the outcome is but I hope at least majority of us can agree that the ability and path to do this, is one of the blessings of living in America.

 

[Bruce]

Interesting perspective on the staged video that some member(s) were so adamant they had to force upon us.

A Bogus Anti-Vaccine Video of a 'Karen' on a Plane Is Going Viral on TikTok

If the video appears designed to be shared widely by anti-vaxxers… that’s because it is

www.rollingstone.com