The Vaccine

[Yambers]

Both shots of Phizer. No side affects. The wife has an auto-immune issue and will not be getting the shot. She also never gets the flu shot, which I am required to get since I work in a hospital.

 

[swatski]

So they started vaccinating more than 6 months ago to validate this?

My 90 year old mother got the 2nd Moderna shot and within hours was extremely ill. She spent 6 days in the hospital. We almost lost her. I do want to say in full disclosure her health has been declining over the past few years. She is not as strong as she use to be but that process of her body developing antibodies nearly created a funeral.

That is not influencing my decision. I just want to know why I should get vaccinated as I feel my body's natural response is superior to the one created by man. @swatski I believe you are in the industry. Do you have an opinion?

Here is a thought.

Would you take polio vaccine? - if poliomyelitis virus was still around (it isn't, at least in the US).
The polio virus was eradicated by man-made vaccination scheme, much like the current Covid vaccine; yet, it still lingers and maims kids in parts of the world where for various reasons there is resistance to WHO vaccination efforts, such as in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria.

As far as the currently available coivd vaccines there are very few contraindications, reasons NOT to take them; the absolute majority of people benefit from taking the vaccine, and it far outweighs the risks; in other words, while not everyone is a good candidate for vaccination, in general not taking the covid vaccine equals bigger risk to an individual, and to the population an individual comes in contact with. There is zero debate of this point among experts. One could say it is akin to wearing a car seat belt: statistically, seat belts mitigate risk of serious injury in crashes, yet, wearing a seat belt can, in rare circumstances, lead to worse injuries in a random individual case, albeit rare.

The covid vaccine is pretty standard in that it induces an immune response to the target virus; typically mild, nevertheless it is an inflammatory response; as such it involves inflammatory reactions that help induce immune "memory" and facilitate productive response upon future antigen exposure/ virus encounter, the real thing. That's how it works.

It's kind of like a military drill of the immune system, in preparation for the real thing. And just like war games there is smoke, and there is fire, and (usually) no one dies.

I'm not a virologist or an infectious disease specialist so I'm never completely comfortable giving opinions on these kind of matters, and whatever I say should be interpreted with caution.

That said, I am somewhat of an expert in immunology, clinical genetics, and cancer immunobiology, I passed several medical boards and have 25+ years of experience in research and clinical work in areas of immunity including vaccination schemes.
My family and I take covid vaccination as fast as we can get to it.
And yes, we do wear seat belts.

--

 

[haknslash]

After I posted that I read exactly what you heard. So which expert is correct? I have no idea!!

I’m not sure on experts or where folks are reading what. This is an excerpt from NMax which is pretty much Pfizer company statements :

“Pfizer Inc.’s Covid-19 vaccine remained highly effective after six months, according to new long-term results that the company said could be used to seek an expansion of its regulatory status.

Follow-up data from a final-stage trial of 46,307 people showed the vaccine was 91.3% effective in preventing symptomatic cases starting one week after the second dose through as long as six months. In the U.S. alone, the efficacy rate was 92.6%, according to a report Thursday by Pfizer and its partner BioNTech SE.

At the same time, the companies provided some of the first data on how their vaccine might handle the immune-evading B.1.351 variant that arose in South Africa. Nine of 800 trial participants in that country got sick with Covid, including six infected with B.1.351. However, all were in the placebo group, suggesting the shot retains efficacy against the variant.”


Source https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/1015976/16

 

[tabbibus]

I got pfizer, as many of my colleagues did. Side effects were the usual mild to moderate flu like symptoms with the second dose mainly. My wife and MIL got Moderna. Similar side effect profile. As many of you know, I've seen (and still seeing) enough death and heartache to even consider not getting this vaccine.

A few tidbits from personal experience (ie: not a study, jus my anecdotal reports)
- Reinfections occur. I've taken care of people back in the hospital with a new infection after months of having their initial one. All the ones I've taken care of like this have had a much more serious course the second time around. Some died. Most of them had a mild presentation on their first round.

- I've seen some weird symptoms a few days after the shot on some folks. Things that are hard to explain. May or may not be related to vaccine. But worth noting. We have reported these to the powers that be. No one has died from it.

- I truly, honestly, hand to heart feel that successful vaccination coverage will be our only way out of this mess (without ever increasing morbidity and mortality).

A.M.A.

 

[swatski]

^^^ Thank you for this.

Without going into any amount of detail, there are many ways a body can fight viral infection like covid; the immune system can use various effector mechanisms ranging from "innate" (preexisting viral infection) to "acquired" (developed in response to the infection and specifically directed to it - a smart bomb of sorts), only the latter is associated with development of "immune memory" - a critical feature of vaccine-induced response which is generally more effective and long lasting.

In other words, not every infection leads to acquired immunity (associated with immune memory); if an individual's immune system manages to eliminate infecting virus using only their strong innate arm, no immune memory may develop. Vaccines are specifically designed, and very effective, to induce "memory-type" long lasting immune response.

--

 

[BigN8]

So what's everyone's experience with the vaccine? I'll start....

Got the first shot of Pfizer Thursday, March 11 through Denton County Health. Went to Texas Motor Speedway as instructed for the drive thru vaccine administration. All I can say is wow. What a well oiled machine. This thing will be written about in the history books. They were giving the shot Tuesdays and Thursdays and running somewhere around 35,000 people a week through there +/- 10,000 people. From start to finish I was thru in about 25 minutes and that is counting the 15 min observation period.

That night I had a fever and pretty bad body aches. The next day I had body aches and very fatigued. Had a meeting at lunch and after meeting came home and passed out on the couch, which is unusual for me. Saturday morning still fatigued but I pounded some gatorade and water and managed to play a round of golf that afternoon. By Saturday evening I was normal. To preface this I will add I had a bad case of Covid in mid Dec. Nine days with fever between 99.5 - 101F. Body aches for 5 days, dry cough, tight chest, fatigue, loss of taste and smell. Took roughly 3 weeks to fully recover from cough. I'm also type A+ blood.

I get my 2nd dose tomorrow at 1:30 at Texas Motor Speedway and to say my anxiety is very high about getting sick again would be an understatement. Will update later.

Got 2nd shot of Pfizer yesterday at 1:30. Felt fine all day and went to bed. Middle of night got very restless, slight fever, then body aches. Slept in this morning. Feel like I was in a car wreck, stiff joints, neck, back, slight headache. Took some Advil, made some coffee, starting to loosen up a little.

Please don't construe my reports as a reason to not get the vaccine! I'm just sharing info with a group of good people so others will know what to expect, and others can share their experience. I firmly believe we should continue to vaccinate as much as possible to get beyond this. If I have to get it again in another year, I will.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

Here is a thought.

Would you take polio vaccine? - if poliomyelitis virus was still around (it isn't, at least in the US).
The polio virus was eradicated by man-made vaccination scheme, much like the current Covid vaccine; yet, it still lingers and maims kids in parts of the world where for various reasons there is resistance to WHO vaccination efforts, such as in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria.

As far as the currently available coivd vaccines there are very few contraindications, reasons NOT to take them; the absolute majority of people benefit from taking the vaccine, and it far outweighs the risks; in other words, while not everyone is a good candidate for vaccination, in general not taking the covid vaccine equals bigger risk to an individual, and to the population an individual comes in contact with. There is zero debate of this point among experts. One could say it is akin to wearing a car seat belt: statistically, seat belts mitigate risk of serious injury in crashes, yet, wearing a seat belt can, in rare circumstances, lead to worse injuries in a random individual case, albeit rare.

The covid vaccine is pretty standard in that it induces an immune response to the target virus; typically mild, nevertheless it is an inflammatory response; as such it involves inflammatory reactions that help induce immune "memory" and facilitate productive response upon future antigen exposure/ virus encounter, the real thing. That's how it works.

It's kind of like a military drill of the immune system, in preparation for the real thing. And just like war games there is smoke, and there is fire, and (usually) no one dies.

I'm not a virologist or an infectious disease specialist so I'm never completely comfortable giving opinions on these kind of matters, and whatever I say should be interpreted with caution.

That said, I am somewhat of an expert in immunology, clinical genetics, and cancer immunobiology, I passed several medical boards and have 25+ years of experience in research and clinical work in areas of immunity including vaccination schemes.
My family and I take covid vaccination as fast as we can get to it.
And yes, we do wear seat belts.

--

Comparing Polio and COVID is not even remotely close. Much higher death rate and much higher risk for significant long-term effects. Your talking a highly contagious flu vs a life altering virus.

I still have not seen a single grain of evidence for people that have been infected with COVID to receive the vaccine.

 

[Scottintexas]

I just want to know why I should get vaccinated as I feel my body's natural response is superior to the one created by man. @swatski I believe you are in the industry. Do you have an opinion?

Buck, as mentioned above, I won't go into the why/why not debate but the two biggest factors that would sway me to get the vaccine,
1. you lessen your chances of getting hospitalized or DYING ( I realize you have a superior system but....)
2. YOU CAN THROW THAT MASK AWAY as chances of being a carrier, let alone shedding the virus, are so vanishingly low, pretty close to zero



.

 

[Dean P]

Buck, as mentioned above, I won't go into the why/why not debate but the two biggest factors that would sway me to get the vaccine,
1. you lessen your chances of getting hospitalized or DYING ( I realize you have a superior system but....)
2. YOU CAN THROW THAT MASK AWAY as chances of being a carrier, let alone shedding the virus, are so vanishingly low, pretty close to zero

.

Fully agree with [HASH=5704]#1![/HASH]!! Absolutely.
#2 CDC is still advising against this. Is this something you heard, feel or can back up?

 

[Scottintexas]

#2 CDC is still advising against this. Is this something you heard, feel or can back up?

besides having it stated by my SCIENTEST friend who I trust more than the political CDC,
why would you where a mask if you have close to zero chance of getting or shedding the virus ??

believe what we say today but not tomorrow, it's never good when people speak and then the PR department has to walk it back,

Can Vaccinated People Spread the Virus? We Don’t Know, Scientists Say. (Published 2021)

Researchers pushed back after the C.D.C. director asserted that vaccinated people “do not carry the virus.”

www.nytimes.com

Dr. Walensky’s comments hinted that protection was complete. “Our data from the C.D.C. today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick,” she said. “And that it’s not just in the clinical trials, it’s also in real-world data.”, she goes on to say "still, wear your mask" but the cat was out of the bag,

the next day "the evidence isn't clear and we have to continue to evaluate"

 

[Dean P]

besides having it stated by my SCIENTEST friend who I trust more than the political CDC,
why would you where a mask if you have close to zero chance of getting or shedding the virus ??

believe what we say today but not tomorrow, it's never good when people speak and then the PR department has to walk it back,

Can Vaccinated People Spread the Virus? We Don’t Know, Scientists Say. (Published 2021)

Researchers pushed back after the C.D.C. director asserted that vaccinated people “do not carry the virus.”

www.nytimes.com

Dr. Walensky’s comments hinted that protection was complete. “Our data from the C.D.C. today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick,” she said. “And that it’s not just in the clinical trials, it’s also in real-world data.”, she goes on to say "still, wear your mask" but the cat was out of the bag,

the next day "the evidence isn't clear and we have to continue to evaluate"

Trying to keep politics out of this. Please stay safe...

 

[swatski]

Comparing Polio and COVID is not even remotely close. Much higher death rate and much higher risk for significant long-term effects. Your talking a highly contagious flu vs a life altering virus.

I still have not seen a single grain of evidence for people that have been infected with COVID to receive the vaccine.

Indeed. Very different epidemics in different eras. Different virus, kids vs adults getting sick, etc. etc.

Like with covid though, less than 1% of cases of polio infection overall experienced any morbidity and vast majority of individuals affected by those viral infections had none, or recovered quickly without any sequelae.
(I don't think we know much about what long term effects of covid infections are, by the way.)

Covid vaccine already available is a miracle as compared to how incredibly messy polio vaccine effort was, especially early on in the 50s when LIVE virus (sic) vaccinations were used.

We shall hope that just as medical research ended the long terrifying decades of the polio epidemics, today's amazing medical science at our disposal leads to rapid development of effective treatments and vaccination schemes for coronavirus - which, indeed, is unfolding in front of our eyes.

--

 

[buckbuck]

Without going into any amount of detail, there are many ways a body can fight viral infection like covid; the immune system can use various effector mechanisms ranging from "innate" (preexisting viral infection) to "acquired" (developed in response to the infection and specifically directed to it - a smart bomb of sorts), only the latter is associated with development of "immune memory" - a critical feature of vaccine-induced response which is generally more effective and long lasting.

In other words, not every infection leads to acquired immunity (associated with immune memory); if an individual's immune system manages to eliminate infecting virus using only their strong innate arm, no immune memory may develop. Vaccines are specifically designed, and very effective, to induce "memory-type" long lasting immune response.

Thank you for helping me better understand. You are the first to give me a specific reason why I should get vaccinated. While I value your perspective I will need to continue to collect information related to this. I am not opposed to the vaccine. But I do want science to back up my choice.

 

[buckbuck]

@swatski Let me follow up with a question. While I had the symptoms and was living closely with other family members who tested positive, I tested Negative...3 times! The only reason I know I had it was I tested a 4th time several weeks later using the antibody test. So I know I have the antibodies, does that mean I have "immune memory"? Please dumb down your answer so I can understand.

 

[buckbuck]

Buck, as mentioned above, I won't go into the why/why not debate but the two biggest factors that would sway me to get the vaccine,
1. you lessen your chances of getting hospitalized or DYING ( I realize you have a superior system but....)

So @Scottintexas do I understand that you believe I have a chance of getting Covid without the vaccine? I don't want to get Covid again. I will get the vaccine as soon as I can if it is superior to my natural immunity.
I value the opinion and perspective of all you guys who have opinions. It helps me form a direction to go on this subject.

 

[tabbibus]

So @Scottintexas do I understand that you believe I have a chance of getting Covid without the vaccine? I don't want to get Covid again. I will get the vaccine as soon as I can if it is superior to my natural immunity.
I value the opinion and perspective of all you guys who have opinions. It helps me form a direction to go on this subject.

You haven't asked me directly, but as stated above in my post, I've cared for patients who had covid again (usually worse 2nd time), so I would suggest that you probably do want to get vaccinated otherwise run the risk of getting it again.

 

[swatski]

@swatski Let me follow up with a question. While I had the symptoms and was living closely with other family members who tested positive, I tested Negative...3 times! The only reason I know I had it was I tested a 4th time several weeks later using the antibody test. So I know I have the antibodies, does that mean I have "immune memory"? Please dumb down your answer so I can understand.

False negatives are the scourge of molecular testing, and not only in covid.

Some issues include sample collection and storage, but false negatives can also reflect testing done too soon, or too late, even with the best technology; choice of testing platform is most important, RT-PCR based testing being the only reliable method for detecting viremia, presence of the virus.

Antibody tests are not great. Many rapid tests are not much better but better than nothing. Antibody cross-reactivity is just one of the issues. Fluidgm test is among the most robust.

Probably the best test on the market to determine if an individual has had an exposure and developed immunological "memory" is "T-Detect" by Adaptive Biotechnologies. It is FDA approved and not expensive.

Individuals with a high-risk exposure are treated as if they are infected, particularly if they have symptoms consistent with COVID-19, but that is not a proof they have developed long term immunity.

I would think a positive T-Detect result would be about as close to the proof of immunity as one can get.

--

 

[Scottintexas]

So @Scottintexas do I understand that you believe I have a chance of getting Covid without the vaccine? I don't want to get Covid again.

I definitely THINK you can get covid again, i know two people who have had it twice,
The first (45 year old mother, formerly athletic, slighty overweight, no other issues) was last feb, admitted to hospital for 3 days but never vented, just severe symptoms, second round was mild fluish type symptoms
Second person (healthy 74yr old) had mild symptoms both times 6 months apart

Now that's being said on do you trust the testing, maybe they didn't have it either time or only once ???

Now if you get the shot, you may be getting another one in six months or every year from here on out, science hasn't answered that yet

What is surprising to me is that military personnel aren't required to get the vaccine,

We did just have a visit from my elderly uncle and two cousins from Seneca last week, one of the cousins and her husband were able to walk into CVS pharmacy here and get there first shot and scheduled the second for when they returned home at their local CVS since IL hadn't opened the shot to them yet

 

[haknslash]

My 70+ year old parents and 90+ year old grandmother got their 2nd Moderna shots yesterday. My father and mother have sore arms but otherwise feel fine. Grandmother doesn’t have any soreness. So far so good for round 2.

 

[Wheelspin]

Got Pfizer. 1st dose in March. Sore arm and a little tired that night.
Got my 2nd at 9am yesterday. Was fine all day, and got pretty tired last night. Had chills through the night last night, and didn't sleep great. I woke with a mild headache, muscle soreness, and nausea. Call it about 1/3 of what a mild flu feels like.
I ate breakfast and my stomach settled, and then I just went about putzing around setting up my new boat all day. I'll probably hit the sack about 2 hours before I ordinarily would on a Friday tonight, but all in all... It's free and that's a heck of a lot better deal than having to fight off this critter for 2 weeks would have been.
Now the announcement that there are no travel, testing, or quarantine restrictions/requirements for travel if you are vaccinated, and it's just a no brainer IMHO.