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The Vaccine

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My SIL and all of her kids except for one have recently tested positive. Most of them had mild symptoms (slight fever, running nose, body aches etc). Lasted 2-3 days and now they’re feeling ok. Some did lose taste and smell. My SIL was 100% vaccinated along with her husband. They likely had the Delta since that is what is mostly in our state these days.

In regards to masks I don’t think they actually work (the ones that aren’t N95 which is 99.9999% of mask wearers) so I’m not sure why there is this push to mask people up again. You can look at states that fully locked down, masked up and compare those to states with more relaxed measures and see there is no difference. Now they are trying to say even if your vaxxed you have to wear them which sends the wrong message and honestly makes zero sense. I took the vaccine knowing it isn’t full proof but that IF I did get it that the effects would be greatly lessened. That was my choice and why I took it so that I didn’t have to wear this stupid ass mask everywhere that doesn’t do jack shit. If they truly want people to get the vaccine they need to stop playing with people and get behind the shit. All they are doing is screwing it up with mixed signals.

Being vaxxed sometimes I have regrets a little and other times not so much and glad I have it. Time will tell I suppose. We aren’t on this floating rock forever. I do get these strange but super strong muscle cramps in my legs. So bad that it wakes me up in the middle of the night, I can’t walk it off or do anything but just grit my teeth in pain until the cramp stops. Never had that prior to vaccine but there’s also no telling if other things are causing it (not enough water, salt, electrolytes etc) or it could be the vaccine for all I know like Jeff’s symptoms. At this point there are plenty of opportunities for people to get vaxxed. It is 100% their right to do as they wish and not big governments or anyone else to say what they must do. Those that are vaxxed have made their choice. They are less likely to have serious issues should they get the virus. Everyone else has made their choice at this point and it is what it is.

That UAB doctor article posted recently in this thread was from our local propaganda news outlet in the state. They love to push edgy articles to stir up emotions on people. We have the lowest vaccine percentage in the country in my state so they have been pushing hard AF with these edgy articles lately. That website and news outlet is known as a joke in the state so take it for what it’s worth...media sensationalism. The same news outlet also likes the make the reader feel like it’s our fault the virus is out there. You never hear of news outlets demanding of the source and to hold those people and countries accountable. I think people are fed up with politics, government and the medical professionals at this point and they feel betrayed because everyone in power has turned this pandemic into their own little game and it’s disgusting and truly pulled the green curtain back.

One metric I don’t see anyone talk about is that there are millions of people around the world that have the vaccine. Yes numbers are going up in huge spikes across the globe again but look at the number that actually matters. The deaths are nowhere near as common. That is because there are millions of people vaccinated. So if millions of people are vaccinated, and numbers of deaths are not rising anywhere near the same ratio they were prior to vaccines, then the issue of this virus has lessened dramatically. Yet big gov and everyone else is still acting like this is of grave importance as if there was no vaccine or medical help that has proven to lessen the effects of the virus. It’s like people are completely disregarding that yes numbers of cases are s-inking but the deaths are not following the same trends just after spikes like they were before. In a nutshell the mortality has dropped like a rock because there are millions of people who simply won’t have anything other than very mild symptoms should they get virus while vaccinated. Yet even with this knowledge, big gov, big media, big medical wants to strong arm and shout down on people who choose not to get it. It doesn’t effect those who have been faxed so what is the issue? I don’t get it with some people. I’m more of a live and let live kind of person though so maybe that is why I don’t care what someone else choose to do. I’ve done my part and that’s all I can do. It’s not my place nor my mission in life to force shit on people that they clearly at this point choose not to do. It’s not a misinformation campaign. The people that have been throwing all the mixed symbols are the people in power and they are the ones playing with people and the ones to blame. I don’t blame the public for not trusting these people anymore.

This thread now sucks just like the other ones turned into. That is all lol. If I could do it all over again I’d still get the vaccine and I’m one of those people who had all sorts of reservations about the unknowns of it, and I still do from time to time, but it is what it is at this point in my life. I just don’t want to be like others I’ve known who had to be in the hospital for weeks or months and sometimes on a ventilator or on oxygen. We’ve had some folks die as well. So for me, I just took a leap of faith. If I grow 3 arms and two penises so be it. I’ll make the best of it I’m sure lol. On the other side I also respect others wishes who choose not to get it or protect themselves from the virus. That is their call and should not be anyone else’s, at least not in this country, while it’s still free.
I don't think what you are saying is lost on public health experts, if only we had had experts run the show from the get go.

The numbers are unequivocal - high vaccination rates track closely with a massive decrease in mortality and morbidity. No one working in the field disputes that.

Historically, this is not very different than polio; eradicated by vaccination, over a long period of time. Medically, the covid vaccines used in the US are better controlled and understood in terms of their mechanism of action and safety profile than many new FDA-approved drug entering the market; covid vaccine safety profiles are better that any new cancer drug entering the clinics. By those same safety standards used by FDA to approve drugs, covid vaccines in the US can be considered safe and effective.

There are those who deliberately spread covid vaccine disinformation - such as in the post earlier that was removed (it already had several thumbs up :banghead:) also consistently paddled by foreign adversaries. That's akin to crying "Fire" in a crowded theater.

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Most of them had mild symptoms (slight fever, running nose, body aches etc). Lasted 2-3 days and now they’re feeling ok.

Glad your family was vaccinated and has recovered well. Thank you for getting vaccinated as well.

In regards to masks I don’t think they actually work (the ones that aren’t N95 which is 99.9999% of mask wearers) so I’m not sure why there is this push to mask people up again.

Contracting the SARS-CoV-2 virus is a matter of exposure through the air. That can be through breathing it in or through the eyes. The most common type of transmission is through breathing in a sufficient amount of viral material.

Wearing a mask filters out x percent of viral material. If all parties are wearing a mask the potential for transmission is reduced to less than x/2. If all parties have their eyes covered transmission potential further reduces and full face shields drop it even lower.

But x or x/2 still allow for transmission if x or x/2 is enough viral material for the virus to develop. Using example numbers, not real numbers, someone with a reasonably functional immune system who receives 1,000 viral particles might not develop the virus at all while 1,000,000 vp might cause a mild illness and 1,000,000,000 vp might cause an overwhelming illness that rapidly leads to disease. If wearing a mask reduces that 1,000,000 exposure to 1,000 then the wearer does not get sick and even in the 1,000,000,000 to 1,000,000 scenario a severe illness becomes a mild illness.

My Aunt and Uncle may be a real life example of this. My Uncle strongly believed the disinformation pushed by politicians and foreign adversaries. His like minded preacher brought CoVID to a prayer breakfast. My quite unhealthy uncle experienced a few weeks of mild illness while my healthy, daily exercising, just retired, Aunt likely received a strong exposure while caring for him. Despite weeks of hospital care including the best wormers and anti-parasitic drugs my aunt did not survive the illness. Family reunions will not be the same.

My wife is a teacher. In her school the rate of infection among teachers was more than three times that in the community. Most weeks students were quarantined from her classroom. By wearing a quality mask and a face shield she was able to avoid contraction. In fact she did not have any illness at all during the year and was in the classroom every day.

But all of that is complicated by delta which may cause 1,000 times as much viral material to be emitted. (Viral infection and transmission in a large well-traced outbreak caused by the Delta SARS-CoV-2 variant)

This year I purchased a stock of KN95 masks for the school year. They were recommended by a local epidemiologist for filtration and comfort. We find them to be easy to breathe and talk through and we bought a brand that was evaluated by the CDC during the mask shortage.

not big governments or anyone else to say what they must do.

From a constitutional perspective I do not believe that the federal government could force national vaccination. At a state or local level the United States Supreme Court has already ruled in favor of a vaccine mandate (On this day, the Supreme Court rules on vaccines and public health - National Constitution Center). Such mandates are unlikely in the worst affected areas as both the suffering populations.

It’s like people are completely disregarding that yes numbers of cases are rising but the deaths are not following the same trends just after infection spikes like they were before.

This would be valid in an area that is mostly vaccinated. I live in an area that is 35% vaccinated. Out of 300,000 Arkansans infected by SARS-CoV-2 we have had more than 10,000 excess deaths and more than 6,000 deaths confirmed as CoVID. There are ~1,800,000 Arkansans who have not been vaccinated or had CoVID. It is thought that most unvaccinated Americans will contract delta. If that happens it is reasonable to expect 36,000 to 60,000 additional CoVID deaths in Arkansas.

Increases in deaths has always lagged behind increases in hospitalization which has lagged behind increases in positive test results. Arkansas has been in the lead in delta cases on a per capita basis. Our news cases level is half of what it was at our peak in January however our hospitals are near full and we have less than 50 ICU beds available in the state serving a population of 3,000,000. Our rate of death also is increasing.

The rate of increase in hospitalization has decreased since hospitals became full but just look at the sharp rate of increase recently. That is so much steeper than any prior point in this pandemic. You also can see how increase in ICU and ventilation have lagged behind hospital admission in the past. Increases in death lagged further behind these indicators.

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One metric I don’t see anyone talk about is that there are millions of people around the world that have the vaccine. Yes numbers are going up in huge spikes across the globe again but look at the number that actually matters. The deaths are nowhere near as common. That is because there are millions of people vaccinated. So if millions of people are vaccinated, and numbers of deaths are not rising anywhere near the same ratio they were prior to vaccines, then the issue of this virus has lessened dramatically.
What isn't talked about is that the delta variant is most likely an extinction burst. As a herd nears herd immunity pretty much every viral outbreak mutates into a more contagious and less deadly variant in an effort of that virus preventing it's extinction. Could it be that the mRNA injections are helping reduce the severity of this variant? Sure. Is it possible that the death toll isn't rising as quickly as the infection rate because the delta variant is an extinction burst? Absolutely. We can't get honest answers about any of this stuff from our so called "experts" or the media.

What I do know is that the VAERS database exists, is easy to access, is quite large, and I look at it very frequently. It boils down to the fact that I'm in age and health demographics that is more are risk from the mRNA injections than the virus itself. Granted, both risks are very small. My point is that I have the right to inform myself of the risks vs reward and make my own decision as to what is best for those around me and myself.

I could not care less about whether or not someone makes the decision to roll up their sleeve or not and I'm not going to push my opinion on anyone else. I trust that those around me make the best decision based on their individual, family, and community circumstances. We have thrived as a society throughout history because of liberties allowing people to make their own decisions. It makes me very suspicious when big government or our so called "expert class" tries taking my liberty away from me. And don't give me this line "it's for the greater good" because anyone who is a responsible citizen weighs that in their decision. For me, I work outside mostly alone, I hate crowds so I do everything I can to avoid them, I don't shop in stores because I strongly dislike shopping, and I don't put myself in situations where its even an elevated risk for me to spread anything because that is just the lifestyle I like and chose for myself (pre-covid).
 
Is it possible that the death toll isn't rising as quickly as the infection rate because the delta variant is an extinction burst? Absolutely. We can't get honest answers about any of this stuff from our so called "experts" or the media.

That is a wild guess and no one would be intentionally withholding information about it, it wouldn’t be known until after the fact, right?

This world & country need an “expert class” more than we ever have. There are way too many dumbshits out there that think everything is easier than it is and that experts are just getting “too cute” (I love that one, immediately identifies morons in my experience) because of social media. It’s really easy to sit around with your buddies and solve the world’s problems over some beers but when it comes down to really doing it it’s a whole lot more complicated.
 
That is a wild guess and no one would be intentionally withholding information about it, it wouldn’t be known until after the fact, right?

This world & country need an “expert class” more than we ever have. There are way too many dumbshits out there that think everything is easier than it is and that experts are just getting “too cute” (I love that one, immediately identifies morons in my experience) because of social media. It’s really easy to sit around with your buddies and solve the world’s problems over some beers but when it comes down to really doing it it’s a whole lot more complicated.
I couldn't disagree more. There are decades of virology to reference and compare data to about extinction bursts. Extinction bursts are not a new theory specific to this virus. Honest virologists who aren't seeking media presence, owning pharmaceutical patents, or trying to cover their ass for massive crimes they've committed are very clear about extinction bursts. Would more data and time to receive and process that data help? Sure. But there's a lot of data already.

As for the expert class, there isn't a one size fits all for anything yet that seems to be the only thing an "expert class" pushes. Tell me how rural Montana would need to approach this in the same manner as some super dense metro like NY. Yet we're being told it's a one size fits all approach regardless of who or where you are. The closest thing to an expert on me is me and the same for you.

The fact that this so called "expert class" has disappeared the existence of our NATURAL immune system is quite alarming to me. Please explain why people who have had the virus need the mRNA injection. Am I really supposed to believe that a synthetic genetic programming is more effective that natural antigens? The only excuse for this in my opinion would be if they know a majority of people diagnosed as positive for the virus didn't actually have the virus so they wouldn't really have natural immunity. And in that case they lied to us then so why would we trust them now?
 
Yes Bruce I understand the deaths lag behind typically 2-3 weeks compared to infection spikes. Sorry to hear of your Aunt passed from this dang thing! Someone(s) needs to be held accountable for this crap happening and I hope one day humanity will unite to find the cause of this crap and hold every single person accountable to the highest degree (death).

I follow the numbers and trends closely from the get-go of this thing. Take a look at countries that are well vaccinated and compare deaths to last year when nobody had vaccines until Q4. Even with the massive Delta spikes, the deaths in UK are nowhere near what they were prior to vaccines. They’ve had the Delta over there long enough to see lagging death threads and they just aren’t there from what I’ve seen. I use Our World in Data to follow this thing and it’s been a very useful tool, for me anyways, to get a grasp around all the numbers. I don’t look at infection rates so much as an indicator of doom and gloom as I do the death rates. Traditionally our data follows what happens in the UK. Our profiles are very close and the lag behind them is generally the same. Look at the death rates compared to the massive spike. Nowhere near the same lever as last year. Is it the virus dying out, the vaccines or a little of both? Nobody knows. The data is there though so I just try and sift through it weekly (it’s not healthy to obsess over it daily).
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What isn't talked about is that the delta variant is most likely an extinction burst.

In my state 60% of the population is not protected against that “extinction burst”. Previous infection of 10% of the population caused 10,000 excess deaths and 6,000 testing confirmed CoVID deaths.

Apply that to the unprotected population and that “extinction burst” could kill another 60,000 before it burns out.


What I do know is that the VAERS database exists, is easy to access, is quite large, and I look at it very frequently.

VAERS indicates correlation not causation. In layman’s terms an entry in VAERS indicates that something occurred in the days after dosing not that dosing caused the occurrence. VAERS data is only an issue when rates of occurrence are higher than expected in the population. For example a drug given to cancer terminal cancer patients would be expected to have a lot of deaths logged in the VAERS database not because the drug killed the patients but because they were alread dying.

Most if not all VAERS reported incidents for the authorized vaccines occur at or at lower rates than is expected for the vaccinated population. For example it is expected that 24 of every million Americans will die each die but the rate of reported deaths among vaccinated persons is lower than expected.

And yes, the rates of VAERS reports are higher for older age groups since older age groups have more reportable issues with or without vaccination.
 
Here is a wider look at the global numbers by major countries with big spikes and the big picture global/world data. To me this data shows vaccines are having a great impact on the virus. I believe I once read these things typically come in 3 waves or circulations around the globe before starting to pilfer out but I could be mistaken. Either way I think the data shows we are on the winning side of this long battle. The large hump in deaths in India can likely be attributed to low to no vaccines in such a massively dense population. That trend wouldn’t be like that in most other more modernized countries where vaccines are more widely used. You can see this in the trends below IMO.

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@haknslash, I agree that vaccination can dramatically reduce sickness and death where it occurs widely.

Is there a similar chart for vaccination by country? In the UK 90% of adults have had one dose and 70% have had two. Unfortunately our numbers in the US are not nearly that high.

It also is important to remember that CoVID deaths are widely considered to be underreported in most countries but especially in India. (India's Pandemic Death Toll Estimated At About 4 Million: 10 Times The Official Count)

Recognizing deaths from India’s delta surge would dramatically increase the right side of the deaths chart.
 
Yup they have a chart for everything on Our World in Data website. It truly is IMO a great resource if you love to look at data and charts of this thing. Great UI as well.

BED69669-CC01-4FFC-B333-781DBCD101F7.jpeg

It doesn’t surprise me India’s numbers are likely higher than reported. The country’s population is massive and they were not highly vaccinated per capita. Their population dwarfs ours and with their lack of vaccines per capita I try not to use their data too much to determine what may or may not happen to us. Our trends tend to follow closely to what happens in European countries so I try to look more heavily into their data as a “forecast” of sorts for what may or may not happen with our country.

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My right to swing my fist stops where your nose begins. Part of me wants to say, if people want to get immunity the old fashion way so be it. But then there's the impact upon others. For me personally, once I got the Covid shot the pandemic was over. I'm real happy with being vaccinated and worked real hard to get it as early as possible, what I struggle with is whether or not Covid now represents a significant enough threat to others for the Government to require vaccination. I wish my Mom's assisted living facility could require vaccination as terms for employment, but I always worry when the government mandates things either way. To a vaccinated person, the threat of the virus seems to be similar or less than the flu.

As for misinformation, that is really a concern, because people are making very important personal decisions with very bad information. I'm not sure how to solve people with bad information, I mean, Kyrie Irving thinks the world is flat.

Finally, what is this wormer discussion about. I've never heard of this.
 
You guys talk about miss information then put up charts that are just that. The hypocrisy in this thread is out of control.
 
Get it don’t get it it’s there choice. There’s a lot of scared people out there. There’s a lot of reasons there getting it or not when did everyone’s life become something that is any body else’s business.
 
Finally, what is this wormer discussion about. I've never heard of this.

There has been a lot of legitimate study of repurposing existing medication as a treatment for SARS-CoV-2 / CoVID-19. There also has been an unfortunate amount politization and speculation.

Preclinical research has found that many substances will destroy the SARS-CoV-2 virus in a test tube or petri dish. Even common substances such as bleach, alcohol, sugar and salt will destroy the virus outside of the body. Some of those substances have been tested in lab animals or humans.

SInce most CoVID-19 patients recover it is necessary to conduct large scale, randomized, controlled studies with proper planning, oversight and peer review to determine if benefit occurs.

Hydroxychloroquine, a drug most frequently used as an anti-parasitic to treat malaria, appeared that it might have benefit to CoVID patients in early reports was thoroughly tested in randomized and controlled studies and found not to have sufficient benefit for usage as a treatment. (Is chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine useful in treating people with COVID-19, or in preventing infection in people who have been exposed to the virus?)

Later early case reporting suggested that another anti-parasitic Ivermectin, a drug most frequently used to worm farm animals, might have benefit to CoVID patients or as a prophylactic. Later studies have been inconclusive. There are ongoing studies that might find a small amount of benefit perhaps 5% of the benefit of vaccination. Major medical agencies recommend against using Ivermectin outside of clinical studies (Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19), (Ivermectin: why a potential COVID treatment isn’t recommended for use). Publications suggesting benefit from ivermectin have been retracted in part or entirely. This is an example Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns

The greatest reported post contraction benefit comes from antibody treatments. The monoclonal antibodies produced in labs have better evidence than antibody transplants from recovered patients. Antibody treatments appear to work better early in the illness before the patient has produced his or her own antibodies. My almost 40 year old brother had a monoclonal antibody treatment just as pneumonia was beginning. That resolved within 24 hours of treatment however he continued to have mild symptoms for a month or so afterward. (Nonhospitalized Adults: Therapeutic Management | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines)
 
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There has been a lot of legitimate study of repurposing existing medication as a treatment for SARS-CoV-2 / CoVID-19. There also has been an unfortunate amount politization and speculation.

Preclinical research has found that many substances will destroy the SARS-CoV-2 virus in a test tube or petri dish. Even common substances such as bleach, alcohol, sugar and salt will destroy the virus outside of the body. Some of those substances have been tested in lab animals or humans.

SInce most CoVID-19 patients recover it is necessary to conduct large scale, randomized, controlled studies with proper planning, oversight and peer review to determine if benefit occurs.

Hydroxychloroquine, a drug most frequently used as an anti-parasitic to treat malaria, appeared that it might have benefit to CoVID patients in early reports was thoroughly tested in randomized and controlled studies and found not to have sufficient benefit for usage as a treatment. (Is chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine useful in treating people with COVID-19, or in preventing infection in people who have been exposed to the virus?)

Later early case reporting suggested that another anti-parasitic Ivermectin, a drug most frequently used to worm farm animals, might have benefit to CoVID patients or as a prophylactic. Later studies have been inconclusive. There are ongoing studies that might find a small amount of benefit perhaps 5% of the benefit of vaccination. Major medical agencies recommend against using Ivermectin outside of clinical studies (Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19), (Ivermectin: why a potential COVID treatment isn’t recommended for use). Publications suggesting benefit from ivermectin have been retracted in part or entirely. This is an example Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns

The greatest reported post contraction benefit comes from antibody treatments. The monoclonal antibodies produced in labs have better evidence than antibody transplants from recovered patients. Antibody treatments appear to work better early in the illness before the patient has produced his or her own antibodies. My almost 40 year old brother had a monoclonal antibody treatment just as pneumonia was beginning. That resolved within 24 hours of treatment however he continued to have mild symptoms for a month or so afterward. (Nonhospitalized Adults: Therapeutic Management | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines)
Thanks. Good information. I was definitely ready to head for the Monoclonal antibodies if I had gotten Covid before the Vaccine was out.
 
Lol at people being heated about stuff written on a message board. Im surely not at all.
It can however be a bit off putting to people when some here portray themselves as experts and they are just repeating the "They Say " lines or copying and pasting studies that No One can actually verify. But these studies are on posted the internet so they must be accurate.
I will only argue when I know 100% Im right and thats usually only in the field of Entomology.
 
But you NEVER hear anything about people with breakthrough positive tests and what they experienced. All you hear is the symptoms were mild but I cant remember anyone coming out and saying anything to support it. What about the Yankee players or other pro athletes, sad to say but people listen to them. They should have taken a marketing approach to this and that means high profile spokes people. Again sad to say but thats the world we live in today where Instagram influencers have more credibility than scientists.
Remember Im not taking a stand here, just sharing some of the things I see or dont see.
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Why are people getting admitted for breakthrough? especially asymptomatic?
And you will never see me call people names or belittle them for their opinion on a message board.
Lol at people being heated about stuff written on a message board. Im surely not at all.
It can however be a bit off putting to people when some here portray themselves as experts and they are just repeating the "They Say " lines or copying and pasting studies that No One can actually verify. But these studies are on posted the internet so they must be accurate.
I will only argue when I know 100% Im right and thats usually only in the field of Entomology.
i would appreciate as well when I take the time out to answer questions and at least get acknowledgement. Negative or positive. It’s Like letting drivers go ahead of you and not getting that wave.
 
@Robconn, I did not understand your last comment but I believe you and @Evil Sports are asking for greater detail on the small number of breakthrough cases. This peer reviewed publication has such detail on nursing home patient and staff cases. Nursing home patients typically are among the most at risk for severe infections. I hope you find it helpful.

 
Please explain why people who have had the virus need the mRNA injection.
we have.
but you don't give a shit, do you.

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@Robconn, I did not understand your last comment but I believe you and @Evil Sports are asking for greater detail on the small number of breakthrough cases. This peer reviewed publication has such detail on nursing home patient and staff cases. Nursing home patients typically are among the most at risk for severe infections. I hope you find it helpful.

Thanks, I was referring to have answered questions in this thread
@Robconn, I did not understand your last comment but I believe you and @Evil Sports are asking for greater detail on the small number of breakthrough cases. This peer reviewed publication has such detail on nursing home patient and staff cases. Nursing home patients typically are among the most at risk for severe infections. I hope you find it helpful.

thanks I will share this as well.
 
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