The Vaccine

[Bruce]

Thanks, I was referring to have answered questions in this thread

Do you have questions that are unanswered?

 

[Robconn]

No, the opposite.I had answered questions that had no response. I received responses by some members but not the one who posed the question. For a social web platform such as this, I appreciate that we can debate, discuss issues.

 

[Evil Sports]

Perhaps I missed where it was posted why people with previous infection Need to get mRNA. I believe Reinfection is at the lowest rate for previously infected folks but again I stand as no expert here

 

[Bruce]

Perhaps I missed where it was posted why people with previous infection Need to get mRNA. I believe Reinfection is at the lowest rate for previously infected folks but again I stand as no expert here

The vaccines were targeted to create antibodies to portions of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that are less likely to change as the virus mutates. Naturally occurring antibodies are more likely to be defeated by variants.

That has already happened with bamlanivimab which was a natural exposure antibody that was selected for use as a monoclonal antibody. Bamlanivimab is not effective against recent variants and is no longer recommended for usage. Dr. @swatski please correct if this is incorrect.

Interestingly vaccine dosing has been found to clear up long CoVID symptoms in a number of instances. This is a good indicator of the antibodies formed to the vaccine being surperior to those formed to exposure to SARS-CoV-2.

Over the longer term exposure to new variants in healthy vaccinated individuals could provide a helpful boost to immunity especially after herd immunity is achieved so that exposure is expected to be low. Viral emissions from unvaccinated delta patients are so high that they create significant risk to everyone.

Hope that helps.

 

[Evil Sports]

Bruce I dont know the first thing about you, so forgive me when I ask, Where do you get all these facts? And might you have have some data on reinfection rates for previous cases. 1 other thing, when the vax was created how did they factor variants into it when they had little data on it to begin with.

 

[Crob83]

The vaccines were targeted to create antibodies to portions of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that are less likely to change as the virus mutates. Naturally occurring antibodies are more likely to be defeated by variants.

That has already happened with bamlanivimab which was a natural exposure antibody that was selected for use as a monoclonal antibody. Bamlanivimab is not effective against recent variants and is no longer recommended for usage. Dr. @swatski please correct if this is incorrect.

Interestingly vaccine dosing has been found to clear up long CoVID symptoms in a number of instances. This is a good indicator of the antibodies formed to the vaccine being surperior to those formed to exposure to SARS-CoV-2.

Over the longer term exposure to new variants in healthy vaccinated individuals could provide a helpful boost to immunity especially after herd immunity is achieved so that exposure is expected to be low. Viral emissions from unvaccinated delta patients are so high that they create significant risk to everyone.

I have shipped out all the Bamlanivimab for the whole entire U.S., and have not seen any come thru in quite some time. Lilly representer!!!

 

[Bruce]

Bruce I dont know the first thing about you, so forgive me when I ask, Where do you get all these facts? And might you have have some data on reinfection rates for previous cases. 1 other thing, when the vax was created how did they factor variants into it when they had little data on it to begin with.

My day job is primarily digital evidence capture and objective analysis with a side of computer forensics and expert testimony. Much of my day is spent reviewing evidence, testimony and established facts to determine what is true.

Four years ago my son was diagnosed with muscular dystrophy which provided a strong motivation to improve my understanding of biology. Dr. @swatski was a huge help with that. Since then I have reviewed thousands of preclinical and clinical study publications as well as helping to plan such studies. That is why my forum participation has decreased.

In December of 2019 a muscular dystrophy friend starting sending me every preprint on SARS-CoV-2 trying to convince me that I should prepare my family. Thanks to him my family was well stocked and did not have any concerns during the panic buying of 2020.

In March of 2020 I started capturing data for my state which I share with epidemiologists and other medical professionals who use it for reporting as well as creating my own reports from that data.

As for targeting the precise methods are pharmaceutical company specific secrets. Much work was performed to create vaccines for SARS-CoV in 2003. That virus did not hang around long enough for human study but the research started for it continued. MERS research also has expanded scientific knowledge of coronaviruses. SARS-CoV-2 was new but fortunately prior work meant that experts and labs were ready to go. People who are way smarter than us on this topic selected target sites they believed were less likely to mutate. I understand those targets are around the Corona spike. They likely tested many possibilities in a petri dish then moved onto lab animals before testing in humans. Fortunately some of the vaccine candidates have proven to be wildly effective. I only wish I could find something as effective for my son.

CIDRAP is an excellent source for validated information on SARS-CoV-2 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) Resource Center

 

[Bruce]

I have shipped out all the Bamlanivimab for the whole entire U.S., and have not seen any come thru in quite some time. Lilly representer!!!

My brother received and benefited from one of your shipments. Thank you so much!

 

[swatski]

I have a new follower!

Exciting. I think he reads all my posts.

--

 

[swatski]

The vaccines were targeted to create antibodies to portions of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that are less likely to change as the virus mutates. Naturally occurring antibodies are more likely to be defeated by variants.

That has already happened with bamlanivimab which was a natural exposure antibody that was selected for use as a monoclonal antibody. Bamlanivimab is not effective against recent variants and is no longer recommended for usage. Dr. @swatski please correct if this is incorrect.

Interestingly vaccine dosing has been found to clear up long CoVID symptoms in a number of instances. This is a good indicator of the antibodies formed to the vaccine being surperior to those formed to exposure to SARS-CoV-2.

Over the longer term exposure to new variants in healthy vaccinated individuals could provide a helpful boost to immunity especially after herd immunity is achieved so that exposure is expected to be low. Viral emissions from unvaccinated delta patients are so high that they create significant risk to everyone.

Hope that helps.

It's probably a bit more complicated... But just like almost everything else in medicine, discovered by serendipity.

For example, Penicillin was a lab accident, and we still don't know exactly what does aspirin do...lol. Indeed, very few drugs have been rationally designed. The first one, notably, was the FK506 - a cyclosporin analoge, developed in the early 90s; even than only a lead compound is usually "designed", everything else being subsequently empirically figured out - tested and tuned-up in clinical trials etc.

With the virus, to become immunogenic, the immune system needs to be able to recognize it as "non-self". Because it spends most of the time as a intracellular pathogen, for the most part antibodies do not play a major role.

(Fauci of course knows all that, most people don't. Yet, many think they know more than he does, which is hilarious; but, I digress)

Intracellular pathogens are removed by killing the host cell. Usually cytotoxic T cells do that job, those are CD8-positive and use granzyme and perforin degranulation to lyze cells that are found to harbor a virus.

How do they know there is a virus?
MHC class 1 recognition. Not antibodies. (and this is why it doesn't really matter much if you have IgG or IgM, or any other class of antibodies, because what you need to kill the virus is T cells; and "memory" T cells - generated by vaccinations - are the best deal)

Viruses, similar to tumors, are tough to tell from normal cells. However, viral proteins (from inside the cell) can be processed by proteolytic machines called proteasomes and "presented" as peptide in the groove of MHC class 1 proteins, those MHC/viral peptide complexes being recognized by the TCR/CD8 complexes on the surface of T cells - harboring unique, somatically rearranged, T cell receptors for antigen (TCR).

Incidentally, those covid vaccines were initially fabricated to serve as cancer vaccines, the mode of recognition between viral and tumor antigens being similar - viruses tend to hide inside the cells and can be similarly tough to tell from normal cells as the tumor "neoantigens";

That is probably why this strategy succeeded, unexpectedly-well for that matter.

There is, of course, a lot more to it, but that's in a nutshell.

--

 

[swatski]

Antibodies, of course, also play a role as they can neutralize the viral particles and prevent infection/re-infection of cells by compromising viral entry mechanism.

Incidentally, in all likelihood that is why former president Trump is still alive, as he became very sick with covid at some point and his stuffers apparently didn't know if he was going to pull through - he received rationally designed antibody cocktail developed by the Regeneron team, which likely/possibly saved his live.
(primary scientific input for that "drug" was delivered by a good friend of mine, George Yancopoulos; he and I actually had the same mentor at Harvard, Fred Alt, except George is now worth slightly north of a $billion, and I still ride a Yamaha jet boat, lol)

--

 

[DRAT]

I can’t believe I just read this entire thread.

I wanted to give a plug to Michael Lewis’s (Moneyball, The Big Short, etc) new pandemic book, The Premonition. It’s great, though not about vaccines at all.

Here’s an article about where vaccine disinformation is actually coming from (HINT: It is NOT “Russian bots!”: Just 12 People Are Behind Most Vaccine Hoaxes On Social Media, Research Shows

And finally, although some of the statewide vaccination rates are disturbingly low, they are actually quite high in most metropolitan areas, even in the South. When you add in the percentage of unvaccinated who have already had Covid and the percentage that the variants will infect over the next couple of months… surely we are getting close to ending this nightmare.

I was SO happy when I showed up to the Cotton Bowl back in April to get my shot and they were doing the J&J that day. One shot! But we all know how that bit of luck turned out. I’m gonna get a booster of either Pfizer or Moderna next week before my kids start back to school. I had zero side effects. I did have a recurring dream involving Bill Gates for a month or so after the shot but I don’t think it was connected…

 

[crazy4life]

Bruce

First of all read the entire post before running to the keyboard in a fit of rage.

I was always left wondering why the blatently one sided view on ivermection and the outright lies that you have been posting in this thread. Well I think I found my answer.

"My Aunt and Uncle may be a real life example of this. My Uncle strongly believed the disinformation pushed by politicians and foreign adversaries. His like minded preacher brought CoVID to a prayer breakfast. My quite unhealthy uncle experienced a few weeks of mild illness while my healthy, daily exercising, just retired, Aunt likely received a strong exposure while caring for him. Despite weeks of hospital care including the best wormers and anti-parasitic drugs my aunt did not survive the illness. Family reunions will not be the same. "

Did your aunt or uncle ever take ivermectin? I suspect that they did and the aunt that you loved so dearly is no longer with us and you blame ivermectin for that.


Before you say that you have never lied let me put this out there. You have stated numerious(at least 10 that i can see just in this thread} times that ivermecten is a horse wormer. THIS IS A BLATANT LIE and there is no such thing as a horse worming drug that I know of. You damn well know that ivermectin is not a horse worming drug but keep saying it to belittle its existence. You claim to be a expert in your field but don't know that?

Ivermectin is a well-known, FDA-approved anti-parasite drug that has been used successfully for more than four decades to treat onchocerciasis “river blindness” and other parasitic diseases. It is one of the safest drugs known. It is on the WHO’s list of essential medicines, has been given 3.7 billion times around the globe, and has won the Nobel Prize for its global and historic impacts in eradicating endemic parasitic infections in many parts of the world.

You post every article you can find that disparages ivermectin and not one article on the entire internet that has a differing conclusion. You claim to be a researcher and data analyst and yet you could not find this paper published in THE AMERICAN JOURNAL OF THERAPEUTICS. In case you have never heard of them in all of that research that you do here is what they do.

American Journal of Therapeutics is an indispensable resource for all prescribing physicians who want to access pharmacological developments in cardiology, infectious disease, oncology, anesthesiology, nephrology, toxicology, and psychotropics without having to sift through stacks of medical journals.

Here is the published paper

Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy... : American Journal of Therapeutics

ed within clinical trials. Areas of Uncertainty: The majority of trialed agents have failed to provide reproducible, definitive proof of efficacy in reducing the mortality of COVID-19 with the exception of corticosteroids in moderate to severe disease. Recently, evidence has emerged that the...

journals.lww.com

You can read the entire paper and draw your own conclusions but I suspect you will not even read it because of your built in bias due to the heartache of losing your aunt.
Here is there conclusion
Conclusions:
Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.

If you are what you claim and a data scientist and researcher you should know that built in biases of the researcher is a real thing. Shame on you for knowingly spreading lies and a blatant bias towards a drug that is being used all over the world and especially in poor countries where big pharma does not have a stranglehold on the flow of information.

I tell my friends to get the vaccine because I think the benefits of it seem to outweigh the risk of getting it. I also have friends that will not get the vaccine under any circumstances whatsoever. I tell them to maybe try a prophylaxiis of ivermectin and vitamin D and a few other vitamins. Tell me Bruce what is the harm in that. Or do you think that these people should get COVID and maybe perish because they are stupid or obtuse or whatever adjective you would like to use for them today. What learned advice do have for these people? I would be curious to your answer.

I truly am sorry that your aunt is with her savior but not giving any alternatives to the millions of people THAT WILL NEVER GET THE VACCINE NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY is truly shameful in my opinion.

How about you post articles that do not support ivermectin and articles that support there use and let people decide there own opinion and not yours. Your problem is you think that everyone that does not agree with your conclusions cannot think for themselves and therefore need you to tell them what to think.

Have a nice day.

 

[AZMark]

I’ve had 5 friends test positive this week stemming from a couple small gatherings last weekend. I was at one of them and I’m one of two people there that didn’t seem to get covid. I was the only vaccinated one.
I now have a tangible reason to be happy that I got it. A few of my friends are certainly wishing they could go back in time as well. A 2 year old got sick enough to end up in the hospital over his fever but he’s doing ok now.
The other person that didn’t seem to get covid went and got the vaccine (that he previously wasn’t going to get) this week.
I think more opinions will change as this variant spreads and people get some reality checks when it starts hitting closer to home among the remaining unvaccinated population.

 

[crazy4life]

I’ve had 5 friends test positive this week stemming from a couple small gatherings last weekend. I was at one of them and I’m one of two people there that didn’t seem to get covid. I was the only vaccinated one.
I now have a tangible reason to be happy that I got it. A few of my friends are certainly wishing they could go back in time as well. A 2 year old got sick enough to end up in the hospital over his fever but he’s doing ok now.
The other person that didn’t seem to get covid went and got the vaccine (that he previously wasn’t going to get) this week.
I think more opinions will change as this variant spreads and people get some reality checks when it starts hitting closer to home among the remaining unvaccinated population.

Do you mind explaining the specifics of these gatherings? Indoors in their house, in the yard etc.

Just curious because I will go to a picnic outdoors and socially distance but will not go indoors for any reason.

Yes I take a leak in my neighbors bushes. They nor my neighbors mind.

 

[AZMark]

Do you mind explaining the specifics of these gatherings? Indoors in their house, in the yard etc.

Just curious because I will go to a picnic outdoors and socially distance but will not go indoors for any reason.

Yes I take a leak in my neighbors bushes. They nor my neighbors mind.

What I was at was just hanging out in the garage and bbqing in the yard. I guess we did eat inside.
Three of the people are family & they obviously have closer exposure to each other.

 

[Julian]

Bruce

First of all read the entire post before running to the keyboard in a fit of rage.

I was always left wondering why the blatently one sided view on ivermection and the outright lies that you have been posting in this thread. Well I think I found my answer.

"My Aunt and Uncle may be a real life example of this. My Uncle strongly believed the disinformation pushed by politicians and foreign adversaries. His like minded preacher brought CoVID to a prayer breakfast. My quite unhealthy uncle experienced a few weeks of mild illness while my healthy, daily exercising, just retired, Aunt likely received a strong exposure while caring for him. Despite weeks of hospital care including the best wormers and anti-parasitic drugs my aunt did not survive the illness. Family reunions will not be the same. "

Did your aunt or uncle ever take ivermectin? I suspect that they did and the aunt that you loved so dearly is no longer with us and you blame ivermectin for that.


Before you say that you have never lied let me put this out there. You have stated numerious(at least 10 that i can see just in this thread} times that ivermecten is a horse wormer. THIS IS A BLATANT LIE and there is no such thing as a horse worming drug that I know of. You damn well know that ivermectin is not a horse worming drug but keep saying it to belittle its existence. You claim to be a expert in your field but don't know that?

Ivermectin is a well-known, FDA-approved anti-parasite drug that has been used successfully for more than four decades to treat onchocerciasis “river blindness” and other parasitic diseases. It is one of the safest drugs known. It is on the WHO’s list of essential medicines, has been given 3.7 billion times around the globe, and has won the Nobel Prize for its global and historic impacts in eradicating endemic parasitic infections in many parts of the world.

You post every article you can find that disparages ivermectin and not one article on the entire internet that has a differing conclusion. You claim to be a researcher and data analyst and yet you could not find this paper published in THE AMERICAN JOURNAL OF THERAPEUTICS. In case you have never heard of them in all of that research that you do here is what they do.

American Journal of Therapeutics is an indispensable resource for all prescribing physicians who want to access pharmacological developments in cardiology, infectious disease, oncology, anesthesiology, nephrology, toxicology, and psychotropics without having to sift through stacks of medical journals.

Here is the published paper

Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy... : American Journal of Therapeutics

ed within clinical trials. Areas of Uncertainty: The majority of trialed agents have failed to provide reproducible, definitive proof of efficacy in reducing the mortality of COVID-19 with the exception of corticosteroids in moderate to severe disease. Recently, evidence has emerged that the...

journals.lww.com

You can read the entire paper and draw your own conclusions but I suspect you will not even read it because of your built in bias due to the heartache of losing your aunt.
Here is there conclusion
Conclusions:
Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.

If you are what you claim and a data scientist and researcher you should know that built in biases of the researcher is a real thing. Shame on you for knowingly spreading lies and a blatant bias towards a drug that is being used all over the world and especially in poor countries where big pharma does not have a stranglehold on the flow of information.

I tell my friends to get the vaccine because I think the benefits of it seem to outweigh the risk of getting it. I also have friends that will not get the vaccine under any circumstances whatsoever. I tell them to maybe try a prophylaxiis of ivermectin and vitamin D and a few other vitamins. Tell me Bruce what is the harm in that. Or do you think that these people should get COVID and maybe perish because they are stupid or obtuse or whatever adjective you would like to use for them today. What learned advice do have for these people? I would be curious to your answer.

I truly am sorry that your aunt is with her savior but not giving any alternatives to the millions of people THAT WILL NEVER GET THE VACCINE NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY is truly shameful in my opinion.

How about you post articles that do not support ivermectin and articles that support there use and let people decide there own opinion and not yours. Your problem is you think that everyone that does not agree with your conclusions cannot think for themselves and therefore need you to tell them what to think.

Have a nice day.

Interesting article. Published in February. It's conclusion is based on the votes of an unnamed panel of experts looking at 16 studies as the basis of their analysis.

At the same time, the FDA and the WHO looked at the same 16 studies of 2500 patients and the FDA published:

• There are insufficient data for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.

While the WHO said:

The group reviewed pooled data from 16 randomized controlled trials (total enrolled 2407), including both inpatients and outpatients with COVID-19. They determined that the evidence on whether ivermectin reduces mortality, need for mechanical ventilation, need for hospital admission and time to clinical improvement in COVID-19 patients is of “very low certainty,” due to the small sizes and methodological limitations of available trial data, including small number of events.​

​

One of these studies has already been pulled due to ethical concerns with the study.

I gather by the anger generated that you are taking ivermectin?

Here is a good summary article on its use:

Pokin Around: Reader asks why some are taking a med for cattle deworming for COVID-19

Ivermectin has been studied for possible use to fight COVID-19 in humans and is currently being studied. Nothing currently supports such use.

www.news-leader.com

And another more detailed discussion that covers some of the new studies being done:

A major ivermectin study has been withdrawn, so what now for the controversial drug?

Investigations have led to the withdrawal of a study backing ivermectin to treat COVID-19. But that’s not the last time we’ll hear about this controversial drug.

theconversation.com

None are saying it works. The best one can say is....

This major review concluded ivermectin did not reduce death from any cause, the length of stay in hospital or people’s ability to clear the virus. The review also said ivermectin was safe but “not a viable option” to treat COVID-19.​

​

I'd not be taking a drug for parasites to fight off covid based on this article.

 

[Evil Sports]

Thanks for all the time spent here by all but at this point I see this just going in circles. Unsubscribed.

 

[Robconn]

I don’t mind the conflicting viewpoints. It helps me gain perspective of how the general public bases decisions with the on going pandemic. It helps me connect better with the patients I treat. I think if we sort through this thread you gain a sense that people care and are passionate.

 

[mwalker4]

I understand a small number of people can't take the vaccine. While not sharing the concern, I can see worrying about the long term effects of the vaccine. But if you don't trust an FDA emergency approved vaccine that is fully documented as effective and taken by half the population, why would you trust ivermectin or any other unapproved medicines? Is it just a total distrust in our medical institutions?