The Vaccine

[tabbibus]

This is what many of us are talking about. People dying because others do not care. "it won't affect me" mentality

Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving doctors "playing musical chairs"

The surge in new COVID cases is putting an enormous strain on hospitals, jeopardizing patients who cannot get the medical attention they need because of a lack of space.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[scbruet]

This is what many of us are talking about. People dying because others do not care. "it won't affect me" mentality

Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving doctors "playing musical chairs"

The surge in new COVID cases is putting an enormous strain on hospitals, jeopardizing patients who cannot get the medical attention they need because of a lack of space.

www.cbsnews.com

And this 30! year old who believed all of the fake news about masks and vaccines on facebook. Unfortunately it appears to be a fatal mistake he made. Tragic.

Texas Anti-Mask 'Freedom Rally' Organizer Fighting For His Life With COVID-19

His pregnant wife said this week that the hospital was "out of options" for her husband.

news.yahoo.com

 

[the MfM]

I try not to read these type of threads because of how infuriating I find them. So forgive me if this has been discussed.

Hospitals are at capacity in large part because there is no where to discharge patients. Families aren’t willing and nursing homes, long term care/assisted living can’t take patients because of staffing.

The vaccine mandate by a large national nursing home company and the Biden medicare mandate have decimated staffing. And it’s not just rn/cna’s it is all the support staff. Facilities/dining/security/secretaries etc are fleeing for other fields. Burger King pays as well as some of these positions. And free food!

As regrettable and sad as the above veteran who didn’t receive care is, expect more rationing. All in the name of the greater good and vaccine mandates.

In the end we will have to ask ourselves is it better to receive no care due to a vaccine mandate (and the expected rationing of care that results ) Or would it be better to have unvaccinated workers with proper PPE and protocols to care for sick patients?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Respectfully, I disagree. A large percentage of folks ending up in the hospital, at this current time, are unvaccinated patients who have covid. If more folks were vaccinated and/or practiced better social behaviors there would be many less hospitalized patients, which would reduce the number of folks who needed post-hospitalization care.

I have no tolerance for healthcare workers who can get vaccinated and don't, especially as at least one vaccine has full FDA approval at this point Unvaccinated workers, even with proper PPE still pose a risk (albeit smaller) to their patients.

I have not seen a lot of data of healthcare workers who refuse to get vaccinated. I believe, however, these number are pretty low. Back in June when Houston Methodist hospital was in the news, and the vaccines were all still under EUA, I believe they lost (either fired or quit) 150 employees out of more than 25,000.

I do agree with you about wages. They are insanely low for the work that we expect these folks to do.

Although it has been several decades, I did work for a while in restaurants and fast food when I was much younger. It was a crappy job for crappy wages. The worst part was I could never get more than 20-30 hours a week, even when I wanted more hours.

Jim

 

[tabbibus]

I try not to read these type of threads because of how infuriating I find them. So forgive me if this has been discussed.

Hospitals are at capacity in large part because there is no where to discharge patients. Families aren’t willing and nursing homes, long term care/assisted living can’t take patients because of staffing.

The vaccine mandate by a large national nursing home company and the Biden medicare mandate have decimated staffing. And it’s not just rn/cna’s it is all the support staff. Facilities/dining/security/secretaries etc are fleeing for other fields. Burger King pays as well as some of these positions. And free food!

As regrettable and sad as the above veteran who didn’t receive care is, expect more rationing. All in the name of the greater good and vaccine mandates.

In the end we will have to ask ourselves is it better to receive no care due to a vaccine mandate (and the expected rationing of care that results ) Or would it be better to have unvaccinated workers with proper PPE and protocols to care for sick patients?

While I agree that there is likely a shortage of staff and wages suck, let's not forget the many who have left due to burnout and overall being disillusioned.

And let's also be real. Hospitals are full because we are inundated with covid patients. Vast majority are unvaccinated. And, specially in the ICU, covid these patients don't get better fast. It takes forever. Most of our ICU vented patients won't get better. And will remain weeks on the vent until they die.

 

[the MfM]

Regardless of why the hospitals/icu’s have patients and are over census (vaccinated or not) patients often can’t leave because step down beds aren’t available.

I live in a state where all workers in healthcare facilities will need to be fully vaccinated by 10/1. Last I checked the already understaffed nursing homes were at around 65% compliant. Many workers are leaving their jobs. At least in my AO the general public is not aware that the mandate includes everyone that works in a facility. Not just medical/therapy/clinical staff that interact with patients.

Non clinical staff are critical to operations and will be difficult to replace in this labor market. Regardless of your feelings on mandates, rationing is now a reality and will likely get worse over the next few months. Regardless

 

[the MfM]

While I agree that there is likely a shortage of staff and wages suck, let's not forget the many who have left due to burnout and overall being disillusioned.

And let's also be real. Hospitals are full because we are inundated with covid patients. Vast majority are unvaccinated. And, specially in the ICU, covid these patients don't get better fast. It takes forever. Most of our ICU vented patients won't get better. And will remain weeks on the vent until they die.

I don’t disagree with you, but I dont believe mandates will fix the situation.
I know a local hospitals infection control dept is so overwhelmed that they can’t contact trace outbreaks amongst their own patients and staff. Cutting staff due to mandates will not help.

 

[Wake_Dude]

And let's also be real. Hospitals are full because we are inundated with covid patients.

Are you more inundated now, or when the pandemic was at it's peak 7 day average last January?

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Staffing didn't seem to be such an issue back then; it sure is now. FACT, there were more COVID patients in the hospital last January then now. FACT there is less staff now to take care of them now.

This is absolutely a case of "unintended consequences" by the mandates.

I am pro vaccination, but I think it's absolute bullshit to force somebody to do anything with their body. And lets not act like the vaccinated can't carry and transmit the virus; we all know that's total crap as well. So the argument that the vaxxed are protecting their patient's is asinine.

 

[the MfM]

Local hospitals have also put all staff on notice that they can and will be reassigned due to expected staff shortages on 10/1.

thats not going to help morale when a nurse who has had a desk job for years says goodbye and retires instead of accepting 3/12s in the ED. Or resigns and takes a travel assignment for 150 an hour.

 

[Wake_Dude]

Local hospitals have also put all staff on notice that they can and will be reassigned due to expected staff shortages on 10/1.

thats not going to help morale when a nurse who has had a desk job for years says goodbye and retires instead of accepting 3/12s in the ED. Or resigns and takes a travel assignment for 150 an hour.

Yup! See this happening everywhere. Funny you mention the ED. Local hospital had 12 out of their 36 beds open last night due to a staffing shortage. The three nurses on staff were precepting med/surg nurses as they are going to be pulled to the ER until further notice.

 

[swatski]

The vaccine mandate by a large national nursing home company and the Biden medicare mandate have decimated staffing.

This is an overstatement, to say the least. Staffing issues currently affect all kinds of jobs across the board, not just nurses and not just health care.

And regardless, how is the covid vaccine mandate different than for example flu vaccine mandate many hospitals have had in place for years?

--

 

[tabbibus]

Are you more inundated now, or when the pandemic was at it's peak 7 day average last January?

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Staffing didn't seem to be such an issue back then; it sure is now. FACT, there were more COVID patients in the hospital last January then now. FACT there is less staff now to take care of them now.

This is absolutely a case of "unintended consequences" by the mandates.

I am pro vaccination, but I think it's absolute bullshit to force somebody to do anything with their body. And lets not act like the vaccinated can't carry and transmit the virus; we all know that's total crap as well. So the argument that the vaxxed are protecting their patient's is asinine.

I can only speak for my hospital. Last week numbers were at same level as last peak. I don't have numbers for this week.

 

[Wake_Dude]

And regardless, how is the covid vaccine mandate different than for example flu vaccine mandate many hospitals have had in place for years?

In my experience the Flu mandate was never a "true" mandate (have worked hospitals in several states as a traveler). In the hospital you had an option for the Flu: Get vaccinated, or wear a mask the entire flu season.

 

[swatski]

In my experience the Flu mandate was never a "true" mandate (have worked hospitals in several states as a traveler). In the hospital you had an option for the Flu: Get vaccinated, or wear a mask the entire flu season.

We are splitting hairs.

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[crazy4life]

I have not seen a lot of data of healthcare workers who refuse to get vaccinated. I believe, however, these number are pretty low.

Might want to do some better research.
“Among the nation's 50 largest hospitals, the percentage of unvaccinated health care workers appears to be even larger, about 1 in 3. Vaccination rates range from a high of 99% at Houston Methodist Hospital, which was the first in the nation to mandate the shots for its workers, to a low between 30% and 40% at some hospitals in Florida.

COVID-19 Vaccines

Vaccines are seen as one of the best ways to stop COVID-19. Learn more about the types of vaccines, including the newly approved Novavax.

www.webmd.com

 

[the MfM]

This is an overstatement, to say the least. Staffing issues currently affect all kinds of jobs across the board, not just nurses and not just health care.

And regardless, how is the covid vaccine mandate different than for example flu vaccine mandate many hospitals have had in place for years?

--

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole, this is an internet forum after all.

But Shortly after the mandates were announced discharge rates dropped at acute care hospitals and their census numbers spiked. Meanwhile nursing homes are begging for staff and hiring cna’s at 30 an hour plus sign on bonuses. That’s in the ball park of a five to ten year RN pre COVID.

I just checked the vaccinated numbers at icf/iid facilities statewide and they are at 68%. Anyone that wants to comply needs to have already gotten their first shot of moderna/phizer or have to get the J&J in the next couple weeks.

Like you said these people will be very hard to replace. I get the sense after talking to many people in the nursing homes that a good number (maybe 10-20%) will not comply with the mandate. It’s hard to know who is serious but even a further 5-10% loss would be decimating.

(I’m not anti vaccination just more pragmatic and feel this mandate won’t be good for access to care)

 

[the MfM]

We are splitting hairs.

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Are you saying COVID vaccine mandates should or do allow opting out in favor of PPE?

 

[tabbibus]

In my experience the Flu mandate was never a "true" mandate (have worked hospitals in several states as a traveler). In the hospital you had an option for the Flu: Get vaccinated, or wear a mask the entire flu season.

I was once threatened with temporary suspension because I forgot to get the flu shot!

 

[swatski]

Are you saying COVID vaccine mandates should or do allow opting out in favor of PPE?

No, but there are places where you can either show a proof of the vaccination or a negative test. In some areas/industries this trend will likely grow, particularly if the T-Detect type testing (probing actual anti-viral immunological memory, which is primarily cytotoxic/CD8+ T cell driven) take ahold, which they may. Cruise ship industry is something to watch for that as they will likely be a trendsetter/bellwether with some impact on what everyone else is doing.

However, I struggle to understand what is the big deal with the mandatory COVID vaccination.

Please explain how, all of a sudden, covid vaccine mandate differs from, for example, children vaccination programs that we have had in the developed world for decades?

As a parent of four, I guess I'm so used to the compulsory annual vaccinations of my children to attend school and play sports I have a hard time understanding how is covid vaccination any different.

As far as personal liberties, what is the difference between a compulsory covid vaccination and any other compulsory vaccination program?
What am I missing?

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[Tgen2013]

A note about the Massachusetts event. I was in that town during that time. It was Bear Week in Provincetown. A Bear is a heavy set, hairy, Gay man. While my wife, daughter, son in law, and I enjoyed our time the in town and on the beach, I guarantee there was much more than casual outdoor contact happening during those two weeks. I saw a few T shirts that said Vaccinated, Lubricated, and ready to be Penxxxxx. So I'm not sure that is a good example on normal spread between vaccinated people.

Oh dont you dare suggest that there should be consistency in how things are labeled,........................................................