The Vaccine

[Robconn]

Healthcare facilities institute policy and procedure primarily due to safety. Secondly, they research statistical outcomes and make a purposeful effort to reduce liabilities. Medical facilities want to provide a safe environment for patients and staff alike. Yearly competencies are required with licensed staff along with continuing education credits respective to each field of practice. In addition, high risk front line employees are required the flu vaccine, a n95 fit test, and a TB test. As a patient, medical facilities are liable and insurance companies withhold compensation to medical facilities for illness and injuries that occur while admitted to the hospital.
I think it is reasonable that covid vaccine mandates are the best way hospitals can protect the general population while maintaining a safe environment. As a patient, any facility that requires a mandate tells me that they respect my overall health. They are cognizant of vulnerabilities. Remember any mandate will come with exemptions, mostly medical related to adverse symptoms and immunity insufficiency.
It gets real toxic when employees come to work and pass covid to other staff and subsequently their families and especially patients. As in the many instances of nursing homes. Not only does it exacerbate the low staffing issues as more are prone to call out sick, some with hospitalization but other members do not feel safe in the workplace. I would rather work short than be out sick myself. ( I have not called out 5+ years, flu) If you are willing to test frequently without a shot so be it. But if you are unwilling to be vaccinated and have no exemptions medical facilities Will have to make that call, not the employee.

 

[2kwik4u]

I keep coming back to the analgoy of the question on if an airplane on a runway moving backwards would lift off. There was a HUGE internet presence about the simple thought experiment a few years ago. A very high percentage of people didn't understand the physics at play, and relied on intuition to form an (incorrect) opinion. It culminated for me when Mythbusters did an episode on it, created a full scale experiment, and asked the pilot his thoughts. The pilot said he didn't think the airplane would take off. This shows he had a fundamental misunderstanding of how the craft he was piloting operated......this scares the ever loving shit out of me....how many people do we have in critical safety roles that have no idea how or why they do what they do?

We are seeing the same thing now with medical professionals refusing the vaccine and quitting their job over a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works or what it is......which tells me, that honestly, there's a really good chance they were providing care without really understanding what it was they are doing.....again, scaring the shit out of me. However fitting the age old adage of "what do you call the guy that finished last in medical school?"...Doctor.

Point being, mandate or not, I have a really hard time performing the mental gymnastics required to chose quitting your job over getting vaccinated. Someone was speaking about unintended consequences earlier, what happens to that professionals career when they go to get rehired and they answer why the left truthfully? IMO, anyone hiring a medical professional will understand immediately that they don't understand how/why a vaccine works, which, from where I sit, is a big red flag on the landscape of understanding your chosen profession.

Now, in terms of a mandate. We already have it both ways. Seriously ridiculous laws have recently been passed on abortion. That is a direct reflection of where the voting representatives think they have control over a person's body. A vaccine mandate is in that same vein of telling someone what they MUST do you their body under penalty of law. However, we juxtapose abortion laws with laws against legal euthanasia. Someone can beg a doctor to end their suffering, and if the doctor does as the patient wishes they're in serious hot water legally. So, why people are choosing THIS particular hill to die on as an argument for civil liberties is a bit absurd to me........I once sat in a NASA phase 3 safety review for an ISS payload and heard an engineer get flustered and blurt out the words "There are hundreds of more severe single point failures; Why are you so stuck on this one in particular?". I now understand his frustration completely. There are soooooo many more important, more impactful, but arguably less popular places to funnel this energy.

My apologies for the novel length post......again.

 

[adrianp89]

Link to mythbusters details?

 

[2kwik4u]

Link to mythbusters details?

Around 1:55 (also around 4:25) has the pilots prediction.

We'll need a separate thread if we want to debate/solve the physics problem. It was (and still is) an easy way to create an absurdly heated debate on the internet for a myriad of reasons.

 

[zipper]

Around 1:55 (also around 4:25) has the pilots prediction.

We'll need a separate thread if we want to debate/solve the physics problem. It was (and still is) an easy way to create an absurdly heated debate on the internet for a myriad of reasons.

Agreed, I call bogus. The plane was moving faster forward than the tarp was moving the other way. The plane had forward motion in relation to the traffic cones (was not sitting there motionless) which produced lift on a very light plane/wing that probably only needs 100' of runway or less to liftoff. But that discussion should be continued elsewhere and is far less personal and political.

Edit: Hang the tail wheel across an arresting cable so the plane cannot move forward to produce lift. The propeller may still displace enough air across part of the wing surface at a high enough RPM to gain some lift, but it will be very unstable as that force is centrally located and not distributed across the wing span evenly. Just my $.02.

 

[the MfM]

We are seeing the same thing now with medical professionals refusing the vaccine and quitting their job over a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works or what it is......which tells me, that honestly, there's a really good chance they were providing care without really understanding what it was they are doing.....again, scaring the shit out of me. However fitting the age old adage of "what do you call the guy that finished last in medical school?"...Doctor.

Again, the mandates here are for all workers in a facility/company that provides healthcare. Doesn’t matter if you are the contractor that plows the parking lot, IT guy in the basement or the Accountant billing specialist that works from home.
These people are not clinical and can work for non healthcare companies. They can, will and are quitting over the mandate.

The mandates will likely lead to rationing and lack of access to healthcare. In large part because the non clinical workers believe what they believe and have many options in this labor market.

I know of several construction projects in hospitals that have already been stopped or delayed due to the inability of contractors to find vaccinated trades people.

 

[BigN8]

Watch “In the same breath” on HBO. It’ll really piss you off how the Chinese gov’t covered this up in the beginning.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

The Bureau of Labor Statistics notes that people change jobs, on average, every 4.2 years. As of 8/28, the CDC reports that 73.9 % of Americans 18 and over have received at least one dose of a vaccine and 63.1% are fully vaccinated.

There is no reason to believe that employees moving from the healthcare industry, over vaccinations, would be a one-way flow. Yes, there might be some delays in filling positions, but there is no reason to believe this can't be done. Folks who are vaccinated will have greater opportunities than those who are not vaccinated.

For the contractor who plows the parking lot, he/she likely will pick up work elsewhere and it is likely another contractor (who is vaccinated) will see the business opportunity to bid the job the other contractor left.

Jim

 

[the MfM]

Yes I’m sure the free market will fill the void and the snow will be plowed. But in the meantime if grandma has a stroke and needs to go to a SNF or rehab there will be delays.

Patients here are already being discharged to facilities three states away. Which, obviously, is not good for recovery when family is 12 hours from being able to visit.

 

[scbruet]

Where do you guys see the government has a vaccine mandate? This keeps getting brought up, but that hasn't and won't happen. It's fear mongering and people are believing that. The government isn't going to fine and/or arrest you, for not getting the vaccine. That just simply isn't going to happen.

I've noticed there is a fundamental misunderstanding between what the private sector can mandate/require, and your rights under the federal government laws.

 

[the MfM]

Lawsuit challenging Maine’s health care worker vaccine mandate

Health care workers have until October 1 to be fully vaccinated.

www.wabi.tv

 

[scbruet]

That is in regard to employment at a private company though. This is also the state level, not the federal government. You are not being fined and/or arrested.

You have free will to seek employment in another state if you don't like a certain regulation. This happens all the time in all sectors.

It's just not anything new.
“For many years the state has required health care workers to be vaccinated against various communicable diseases and, to our knowledge... The state has now simply added an additional disease – COVID-19,” Frey’s statement read in part. “Federal courts, including the United States Supreme Court, have consistently upheld mandatory vaccination requirements.”

I don't like over regulations either, but a government mandate in the terms it's being used and implied, just isn't happening.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I believe @the MfM had also referenced the "the Biden medicare mandate"

From an 8/18/21 posting on the CMS.gov website, "The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), in collaboration with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), is developing an emergency regulation requiring staff vaccinations within the nation’s more than 15,000 Medicare and Medicaid-participating nursing homes."

So, in reality, there is a federal government mandate of privately run nursing homes that are received monies from CMS for patients.

Jim

 

[scbruet]

Right. Medicare is a government program, so they can regulate that as they please. That private nursing home can choose to not accept medicare patients if they have an issue with that.
Any random Joe living on his land is not required by the federal government to get a vaccine. Never has been, never will be. The "vaccine mandate" talking points are all just fear mongering.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I don't believe that any of the recent posts have talked about a federal mandate of ordinary citizens. There have been mandates on some state and federal government employees (most recently the U.S. military) and some private employers.

Jim

 

[scbruet]

OK thats good to know. I'm glad nobody has that concern here.

 

[the MfM]

About 1 in 8 nurses hasn't gotten a COVID-19 vaccine or doesn't plan to get one, a new survey finds, setting up the potential for more staffing shortages at hospitals

The American Nurses Association surveyed nurses across the US to learn more about their questions and concerns surrounding coronavirus vaccinations.

www.yahoo.com

 

[2kwik4u]

Agreed, I call bogus. The plane was moving faster forward than the tarp was moving the other way. The plane had forward motion in relation to the traffic cones (was not sitting there motionless) which produced lift on a very light plane/wing that probably only needs 100' of runway or less to liftoff. But that discussion should be continued elsewhere and is far less personal and political.

Edit: Hang the tail wheel across an arresting cable so the plane cannot move forward to produce lift. The propeller may still displace enough air across part of the wing surface at a high enough RPM to gain some lift, but it will be very unstable as that force is centrally located and not distributed across the wing span evenly. Just my $.02.

The whole point here is that the planes motion is independent of the wheels rate of rotation. If the wheels were the cause for the motion as soon as they loose contact with the ground the plane could no longer propel itself forward. The plane cares not how fast the wheels are spinning only the speed at which air is traversing the wings......same premise applies to a sea plane taking off without and force on the water. Upriver or downriver has no bearing on the planes ability to takeoff, not the distance need to cover to takeoff. Windspeed is the only parameter that matters.

Look up a bush plane taking off or landing into a headwind, then imagine a conveyor under it and postulate the results. Take it to extremes and see how that effects it.

I'll explain in another thread if ya want

 

[Wake_Dude]

About 1 in 8 nurses hasn't gotten a COVID-19 vaccine or doesn't plan to get one, a new survey finds, setting up the potential for more staffing shortages at hospitals

The American Nurses Association surveyed nurses across the US to learn more about their questions and concerns surrounding coronavirus vaccinations.

www.yahoo.com

Wow, the ANA? That is a straight up legit study. Sorry Chicken Littles, deal with it.

Heard it best this morning from a buddy of mine who refuses to get vaccinated. He states, "Everything in life is a calculated risk....If the odds are in your favor, you base your decision accordingly". Even though I'm vaccinated, I see this line of reasoning.

Last 7 day death rate is (2/100,000) x 100 = 0.002% For all you inept folks out there, that is 2 thousandths of 1 percent.

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Death Rate Since Jan 21, 2020: (191/100,000) x 100 = 0.191% Again, that is 191 thousandths of 1 percent.

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

The odds of surviving COVID are pretty frigging good. Sorry, not sorry. If you're in a high risk category, by all means, get vaccinated. But don't give any shit to those who won't.


Carry on fearmongers! The sky is falling! Bring on the "thumbs down" icon! LOL. You know you want to Swatski, thumbs down king! LOL.

Facts suck huh?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

About 1 in 8 nurses hasn't gotten a COVID-19 vaccine or doesn't plan to get one, a new survey finds, setting up the potential for more staffing shortages at hospitals

The American Nurses Association surveyed nurses across the US to learn more about their questions and concerns surrounding coronavirus vaccinations.

www.yahoo.com

Here is a link to the actual survey.

A couple of screen shots:





As 35%-40% of the unvaccinated were waiting for FDA approval, today the numbers of unvaccinated may be smaller. It is also interesting that 9% of the nurses surveyed were retired.

The one, important question they did not ask of the unvaccinated nurses was "would you leave your employer if the vaccine was mandated?"

Jim