The Vaccine

[tabbibus]

 

[Beachbummer]

I find that dialog can reach a shared understanding. Many pages ago I learned quite a bit in a similar discussion. Discounting an adverse opinion as a Troll is valid only after the discussion reaches a certain point... Say, I Claim the earth is flat... don't call me a troll yet, you don't know my history, maybe I just woke up from 1000 year sleep. Show me the picture of earth from the space station and the moon, and THEN you can call me a troll. (Or I tell you your picture is actually flat so it proves my point, and that so many around the globe agree with my flat earth perspective, then you call me a lunatic) BUT, with enough evidence some will change their mind, OR (difficult to see, but I still always come at it with an open mind) I might learn something.

 

[tabbibus]

I find that dialog can reach a shared understanding. Many pages ago I learned quite a bit in a similar discussion. Discounting an adverse opinion as a Troll is valid only after the discussion reaches a certain point... Say, I Claim the earth is flat... don't call me a troll yet, you don't know my history, maybe I just woke up from 1000 year sleep. Show me the picture of earth from the space station and the moon, and THEN you can call me a troll. (Or I tell you your picture is actually flat so it proves my point, and that so many around the globe agree with my flat earth perspective, then you call me a lunatic) BUT, with enough evidence some will change their mind, OR (difficult to see, but I still always come at it with an open mind) I might learn something.

I hear you. And that is what we have tried to do in the 87 pages of this. I guess I'm just fatigued.

 

[2kwik4u]

I find that dialog can reach a shared understanding. Many pages ago I learned quite a bit in a similar discussion. Discounting an adverse opinion as a Troll is valid only after the discussion reaches a certain point... Say, I Claim the earth is flat... don't call me a troll yet, you don't know my history, maybe I just woke up from 1000 year sleep. Show me the picture of earth from the space station and the moon, and THEN you can call me a troll. (Or I tell you your picture is actually flat so it proves my point, and that so many around the globe agree with my flat earth perspective, then you call me a lunatic) BUT, with enough evidence some will change their mind, OR (difficult to see, but I still always come at it with an open mind) I might learn something.

Exceptionally succinct point made here.

 

[2kwik4u]

I hear you. And that is what we have tried to do in the 87 pages of this. I guess I'm just fatigued.

The bigger issue is changing a belief rather than changing an incorrect understanding. The starting point, path, and methodologies are completely different, and it's often incredibly hard to notice the difference between the two. I think this is the exhausting portion, those that are walking in with a curiosity of learning from SME's are getting great discussion. Those that are here to condemn (or promote) a false belief are finding road blocks everywhere.

I had one particular professor in college that was exceptionally good at recognizing this after years of teaching subjects that were not always entirely intuitive. He taught things like Thermodynamics, Mechanical Dynamics, and Fluid Dynamics. Super sharp guy with exceptionally communication skills. He would often lead you into a problem on direction, then stop and say "Now, you've already formed an opinion on where this is going, let me correct your intuition before it leads you any further", and proceed to explain why something worked a certain way, or behaved in a certain manner that wasn't entirely what it appeared it "should". I was significantly educated on HOW to learn from that man.

 

[Dean P]

I still always come at it with an open mind

This is the key which will bring about change; the willingness to keep an open mind. I'm afraid this is missing and IMO is a major issue with our country today.

Obviously, this pandemic will not disappear anytime soon. Lots of good points were brought up but the negative statements do not bring solutions; just more negativity, backseat driving if you will. I'd honestly like to hear from those members with ideas on how to rectify this pandemic so we can get back to normal. Please speak up. How would you prevent the spread and possibly more death? I'd love to hear your thoughts. What would you do differently?

 

[MidnightRider]

This thread is starting to reflect the conversations I've had and observed with colleagues, friends, and family. There are really good smart people that are hesitant about the vaccine and in that hesitancy and distrust are trying to figure out what their path forward should be to protect their family and others, many are on the fence even and may eventually get the vaccine but are constantly getting "stomped" on by over zealous pro vaccine crowd (and the non-choice of my job or the vaccine) and are really tired of getting stomped on so they start to bristle back against that (not even against the vaccine necessarily but against the "stomping"). Then you have the other side, those that truly believe in the vaccine and other measures to be the way to end the ungodly mess we are in, they see all this misinformation and it drives them crazy and they must stomp out any misinformation they see (arguably, rightly so). So you have these two types of people both who are smart, good intentioned people on two sides of an issue finding themselves unable to have any type of healthy exchange because they have become so engulfed by their agenda. The agenda coming from a morphing of hesitancy -> resist the stomping on one side and the agenda coming from a morphing of stomp out misinformation -> stomp on anyone that disagrees with what I've decided is true on the other side. I heard some good points on both sides and learned some things too but it may be time for me to "unwatch" this show cause its starting to majorly bum me out which is opposite of any of the reasons I visit this forum.

 

[Bizywk]

I get your point, but we've always had to show papers to get a beer and enter clubs before covid. Those trackers also don't show your location, they just show who were next to that tested positive and how many times you had close contact. Not exactly where that close contact was.

Its understandable that one could think this as contact tracer systems are sold this way, but it's not exactly true.

 

[Lurch]

I read a private message by our family friend, a long time family practitioner, a neurologist by subspecialty, living and practicing in one of the midwestern states. He was my wife's former high school swim team member in Tulsa, OK, she said this is the first time ever she had seen him post anything about covid.

I find it poignant; do we still belong in so called "developed world"? I'm honestly not sure.

This is his post:
"This information is too preposterous not to share. This is the kind of shit the medical profession has to deal with: My home town ER #1 reason for an ER visit last week - Covid 19 (no surprise and has been the case for 2 months now), but the new #2 reason for an ER visit----- Ivermectin overdose! I just wish I was kidding "

--

Swatski, 1 anecdotal post referencing a bogus story about Oklahoma hospitals being overrun with Ivermectin overdoses just feeds into the divisiveness of this topic. Nationwide, there were 459 reported Ivermectin overdoses reported to the National Poison Data System in August. The CDC reports Oklahoma has a 7 day average of 1528 COVID hospitalizations. Without more info, I can't say for certain, but this Dr's post seems highly suspect.

The fact that the media and Government push an Us vs Them agenda, while ignoring ANY other personal choices to limit the severity of COVID once an individual contracts it (i.e. supplemental Vit C, D, Zinc, weight loss, exercise, quitting smoking) only further divides people.

I got the vax, I think it's safe, but who knows what (if any) long term effects will be. Like the Flu/Common Cold, COVID is here to stay, and the cherry picking of info/messaging and fearmongering is only driving people further apart.

 

[2kwik4u]

How would you prevent the spread and possibly more death? I'd love to hear your thoughts. What would you do differently?

Misinformation is the primary enemy here. This, IMO, is not a problem solved by science.....or that is to say the scientific community has taken it as far as they can, as fast as they can at this point.

We have trust issues, and marketing issues to address. Communication and transparency are not great from the top down. The scientists assume everyone knows that they are changing opinions based on new information, when it's taken (by and large) as though they are changing their story and don't know what they are doing. The only way to change that rhetoric is with clarity of speech, good education, and acceptance (not shaming) of the other side.

We're deep enough down the hole at this point, I'm afraid further digging will only lead to more divisiveness.

*edit*......A thought on the clarity of speech........

I deal with this EVERY SINGLE DAY. I have a group of employees that are by and large heavily educated. Masters degrees, and PhD's abound. They STRUGGLE, and I mean SERIOUSLY struggle to communicate with the guys on the shop floor. They lack the range to use the appropriate speech required to speak at the appropriate level. Even amongst a single "level" of people, there is a range within that bracket that must be considered. Speaking above or below someone will not work, and is often met with these difficulties. Assumptions are made that are inaccurate, rabbit holes are chased because of a lack of understanding on both sides. I can't get my engineers to understand that weld distortion is a thing, and that it can't be well quantified in the design phase. I can't get my welders to understand that sometimes a skip weld is acceptable, and other times a full weld is required depending on how the part is loaded in operation. We fight these communication issues on a daily basis, and the teams that are highly successful check their ego at the door, show up with a good attitude, and are crystal clear that there is a fundamental respect and education to be had on both sides.

 

[Dean P]

Swatski, 1 anecdotal post referencing a bogus story about Oklahoma hospitals being overrun with Ivermectin overdoses just feeds into the divisiveness of this topic. Nationwide, there were 459 reported Ivermectin overdoses reported to the National Poison Data System in August. The CDC reports Oklahoma has a 7 day average of 1528 COVID hospitalizations. Without more info, I can't say for certain, but this Dr's post seems highly suspect.

The fact that the media and Government push an Us vs Them agenda, while ignoring ANY other personal choices to limit the severity of COVID once an individual contracts it (i.e. supplemental Vit C, D, Zinc, weight loss, exercise, quitting smoking) only further divides people.

I got the vax, I think it's safe, but who knows what (if any) long term effects will be. Like the Flu/Common Cold, COVID is here to stay, and the cherry picking of info/messaging and fearmongering is only driving people further apart.

Do you have any data to back up your statements?

 

[Lurch]

Do you have any data to back up your statements?

Which statements? I posted a few...

 

[Dean P]

Which statements? I posted a few...

All of them. You're putting numbers on a page that don't mean anything without effient data. Where's your data? Where did you get it?

 

[Lurch]

All of them. You're putting numbers on a page that don't mean anything without effient data. Where's your data? Where did you get it?

covid.cdc.gov

 

[Dean P]

Misinformation is the primary enemy here. This, IMO, is not a problem solved by science.....or that is to say the scientific community has taken it as far as they can, as fast as they can at this point.

We have trust issues, and marketing issues to address. Communication and transparency are not great from the top down. The scientists assume everyone knows that they are changing opinions based on new information, when it's taken (by and large) as though they are changing their story and don't know what they are doing. The only way to change that rhetoric is with clarity of speech, good education, and acceptance (not shaming) of the other side.

We're deep enough down the hole at this point, I'm afraid further digging will only lead to more divisiveness.

*edit*......A thought on the clarity of speech........

I deal with this EVERY SINGLE DAY. I have a group of employees that are by and large heavily educated. Masters degrees, and PhD's abound. They STRUGGLE, and I mean SERIOUSLY struggle to communicate with the guys on the shop floor. They lack the range to use the appropriate speech required to speak at the appropriate level. Even amongst a single "level" of people, there is a range within that bracket that must be considered. Speaking above or below someone will not work, and is often met with these difficulties. Assumptions are made that are inaccurate, rabbit holes are chased because of a lack of understanding on both sides. I can't get my engineers to understand that weld distortion is a thing, and that it can't be well quantified in the design phase. I can't get my welders to understand that sometimes a skip weld is acceptable, and other times a full weld is required depending on how the part is loaded in operation. We fight these communication issues on a daily basis, and the teams that are highly successful check their ego at the door, show up with a good attitude, and are crystal clear that there is a fundamental respect and education to be had on both sides.

This is definitely a human flaw we all suffer from. We suffer with and from empathy (hence 88 pages). I still feel keeping an open mind will get us to the finish line. Thank GOD the scientist have an open mind. It's their willingness to push forward after rounds and rounds of defeat. They are truly miracle workers.

 

[Lurch]

My point was that Swatski and the Dr. in question likely fell into the confirmation bias trap, further dividing people. A quick google search on "Oklahoma Ivermectin story" will show the truth vs misinformation.

 

[Dean P]

covid.cdc.gov

Please back up your statements with clips of what your stating otherwise it's propaganda.

 

[Dean P]

@haknslash You're a funny guy.

Please stop being a part of the problem and start being a part of the solution.

 

[Lurch]

Please back up your statements with clips of what your stating otherwise it's propaganda.

Here you go. I'm sure you'll want to pull the data yourself to ensure this isn't propaganda...

Oklahoma stats:

COVID-19 State Profile Report - Oklahoma | HealthData.gov

healthdata.gov

National Poison Data Center stats:
APPCC Member request - https://piper.filecamp.com/s/80c7iAc8dpdF0QFm/d
Non-Member data request - https://piper.filecamp.com/s/DWABygHbUdnOzoi3/d

 

[Bizywk]

While I agree that there is likely a shortage of staff and wages suck, let's not forget the many who have left due to burnout and overall being disillusioned.

And let's also be real. Hospitals are full because we are inundated with covid patients. Vast majority are unvaccinated. And, specially in the ICU, covid these patients don't get better fast. It takes forever. Most of our ICU vented patients won't get better. And will remain weeks on the vent until they die.

@tabbibus, I think we all respect your strong passion about this topic. What city is your hospital in?

I don't know if you're dealing with a regional issue, but there is rising evidence that hospitals globally aren't seeing the same thing you are, and that the vaccinations could be provoking the situation. Locally, I hear first hand accounts from people in our hospital system that they aren't being inundated with the unvaccinated. It's also perplexing that we're also seeing about as many press reports that say that hospitals are bursting with unvaccinated cases as reports that show the contrary. Several times a week we're seeing fully-vaccinated sports personalities benched due to Covid19 infections. Now, we're starting to see numerous press reports of Israel, arguably the MOST vaccinated and herd immune country in the world becoming a hotbed of breakout cases.

Inside Israel's recent outbreak: Why mostly vaccinated people are testing positive

The first country to reach vaccine herd immunity has seen a recent rise in cases, mostly among vaccinated people. What does this mean? What’s going on?

www.deseret.com

Most Hospitalizations In Israel Are 'Vaccinated'...Breakthough Infections Skyrocketing - Tsionizm

Perhaps investigators should look at relationships between Israeli government officials and big Pharma.

tsionizm.com