The Vaccine

[tabbibus]

@tabbibus - I'd argue a no good evidence position on this one. From the NIH in April:

Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19 - PMC

After COVID-19 emerged on U.S shores, providers began reviewing the emerging basic science, translational, and clinical data to identify potentially effective treatment options. In addition, a multitude of both novel and repurposed therapeutic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Therapeutic Advances:
A large majority of randomized and observational controlled trials of ivermectin are reporting repeated, large magnitude improvements in clinical outcomes. Numerous prophylaxis trials demonstrate that regular ivermectin use leads to large reductions in transmission. Multiple, large “natural experiments” occurred in regions that initiated “ivermectin distribution” campaigns followed by tight, reproducible, temporally associated decreases in case counts and case fatality rates compared with nearby regions without such campaigns.

Yes, understood. I've seen this. First a clarification. This is not from the NIH per se. This is a link to Pubmed. A scientific literature search engine. The manuscript is published in the american journal of therapeutics. The author is Dr Marik. A guy who rose to fame due to some very interesting work in sepsis. Work that many studies have failed to replicate and some even show that his suggestions can cause harm. Still a big name. Sadly, since then, he has lost a lot of credibility due to ongoing weird positions on many issues, including ivermectin. This paper is a review of literature. His analysis and even the analysis of the studies he looked at, have shown multiple flaws. I can delve deeper into this later when I actually have lots of time to do so, but the consensus is still that the evidence is not good to suggest that this medicine works for covid.

 

[Troch1]

I sense hostility in your question but I'll engage. Apologize if I miss read your tone.

Day one patients are rare. But are the best. Monoclonal antibody cocktail is very good at keeping these patients out of trouble. The earlier the better.

To be fair, @tabbibus, monoclonal antibodies aren't technically recommended for everyone, just those who are deemed high risk (which admittedly is a large percentage of people). Just trying to be factually accurate here.


Monoclonal antibody treatment is available to individuals who:

• Are high risk** for developing severe COVID-19 and
• Have a positive COVID-19 test and have not yet been admitted to the hospital and
• Are 12 years of age or older (and at least 88 pounds)
  

Post-exposure preventive monoclonal antibodies are available to those who have been exposed (consistent with the CDC's close contact criteria)* and who are:

• High risk** for developing severe COVID-19 and
• 12 years of age or older (and at least 88 pounds) and
• Not fully vaccinated or vaccinated but immunocompromised
  

*In some cases, direct exposure isn't a criterion. If you meet the criteria above and are at high risk of exposure to an individual infected because of an occurrence of infection in other individuals in the same institutional setting (for example, nursing homes or prisons), you are eligible for post-exposure preventive monoclonal antibodies.

It is important to understand that post-exposure preventive monoclonal antibodies are not a replacement for vaccination.

**High risk includes any of the following:

• 65 years of age or older
• Overweight (body mass index over 25)
• Pregnancy
• Chronic kidney disease
• Diabetes (Type 1 and Type 2)
• Weakened immune system
• Currently receiving immunosuppressive treatment
• Cardiovascular disease/hypertension
• Chronic lung disease
• Sickle cell disease
• Neurodevelopmental disorders
• Medical-related technological dependence

 

[tabbibus]

To be fair, @tabbibus, monoclonal antibodies aren't technically recommended for everyone, just those who are deemed high risk (which admittedly is a large percentage of people). Just trying to be factually accurate here.


Monoclonal antibody treatment is available to individuals who:

• Are high risk** for developing severe COVID-19 and
• Have a positive COVID-19 test and have not yet been admitted to the hospital and
• Are 12 years of age or older (and at least 88 pounds)

Post-exposure preventive monoclonal antibodies are available to those who have been exposed (consistent with the CDC's close contact criteria)* and who are:

• High risk** for developing severe COVID-19 and
• 12 years of age or older (and at least 88 pounds) and
• Not fully vaccinated or vaccinated but immunocompromised

*In some cases, direct exposure isn't a criterion. If you meet the criteria above and are at high risk of exposure to an individual infected because of an occurrence of infection in other individuals in the same institutional setting (for example, nursing homes or prisons), you are eligible for post-exposure preventive monoclonal antibodies.

It is important to understand that post-exposure preventive monoclonal antibodies are not a replacement for vaccination.

**High risk includes any of the following:

• 65 years of age or older
• Overweight (body mass index over 25)
• Pregnancy
• Chronic kidney disease
• Diabetes (Type 1 and Type 2)
• Weakened immune system
• Currently receiving immunosuppressive treatment
• Cardiovascular disease/hypertension
• Chronic lung disease
• Sickle cell disease
• Neurodevelopmental disorders
• Medical-related technological dependence

Yup. Nothing to argue against what you just said. All true. Specially the last sentence regarding vaccination.

Truly it is hard to convey on a forum post the nuances of practicing medicine, be it for covid or anything else.

 

[crazy4life]

Source?

Follow up to anyone reading.

How does Invermectin work? What's the chemistry/biology at play here? My understanding is that it's a "deworming" agent for livestock. Does it attack the worms, or does it shore up immune system? Anyone have any data on how the interplay between the medication and a virus would play out? Perhaps it's an easy "debunk" and perhaps it's a "We're onto something here and need to watch the trials"? I'm not promoting the use at this point, but I would like to learn more and need some help finding sources on the mechanics of operation to develop an understanding.

Please read this paper written by the Doctor Who won the Nobel prize for its discovery. This paper discusses everything you wanna know in detail and it’s 52 pages long and I guarantee you nobody here but me has read the entire paper. Please read the paper by the Doctor Who discovered this wonderful drug and then get back to me. Every expert here did not read this paper and what a shame because you know.... the science.

Anyone who wants to discuss this paper AFTER reading it I would love to hear your thoughts on it. Please keep your attacks on how stupid this guy is to yourself. Pretty sure he is as smart or smarter then anyone hear so no personnel attacks please. (You know who you are)
No posting allowed until you have read the entire paper.

like that’s gonna happen..,., maybe but probably not.

http://jja-contents.wdc-jp.com/pdf/JJA74/74-1-open/74-1_44-95.pdf

 

[djetok]

So man-made is not proven false (which would be a neat trick), and admittedly unlikely. Gotcha. No proof it originated in a lab, no proof that it is man-made, and no proof it originated elsewhere. I prefer not to speak in absolutes. Thanks for clarifying.

For the record, I am not proficient in gain-of-function, nor have I ever claimed to be, but I sometimes abbreviate to save time. Back to the vaccine...

I don't think anyone will know the truth in the general public. NOONE wants the liability. I do know that there is a certain person here that is working on the Vax. I will certainly listen to that person on how it affects and what it is intended to do. Even with the Dr. that is posting in this thread. They only know the info that is passed down to them from other entities. To argue about facts , where facts have not truly been handed down is silly on all fronts. @Lurch this was not aimed at you. I just used your quote.

 

[scbruet]

I'm just confused on why people are trying to make Invermectin a thing? Where did it come from? Why not just get the vaccine that is FDA approved? I'm genuinely asking.

 

[AZMark]

I'm just confused on why people are trying to make Invermectin a thing? Where did it come from? Why not just get the vaccine that is FDA approved? I'm genuinely asking.

Not allowed to post the answer to that on this site.

 

[Lurch]

I don't think anyone will know the truth in the general public. NOONE wants the liability. I do know that there is a certain person here that is working on the Vax. I will certainly listen to that person on how it affects and what it is intended to do. Even with the Dr. that is posting in this thread. They only know the info that is passed down to them from other entities. To argue about facts , where facts have not truly been handed down is silly on all fronts. @Lurch this was not aimed at you. I just used your quote.

I agree, @djetok. I've argued against opinion presented as fact several times in this thread.

 

[Lurch]

I'm just confused on why people are trying to make Invermectin a thing? Where did it come from? Why not just get the vaccine that is FDA approved? I'm genuinely asking.

Personally, @scbruet, I don't believe there is a silver bullet for COVID. If I'm unlucky enough to get infected despite being vaccinated, I'd like to have an informed opinion as to my options.

 

[tabbibus]

I'm just confused on why people are trying to make Invermectin a thing? Where did it come from? Why not just get the vaccine that is FDA approved? I'm genuinely asking.

I'm not sure. Again, I promise, once / if the drug is shown to work, the medical community will embrace it. Until then I'll stick with what's working.

Funny. You hear all the rally cries of "I don't want this experimental vaccine", "don't experiment on me" and so on. But ivermectin that is truly experimental? Bring it ON!!!

 

[Lurch]

I'm not sure. Again, I promise, once / if the drug is shown to work, the medical community will embrace it. Until then I'll stick with what's working.

Funny. You hear all the rally cries of "I don't want this experimental vaccine", "don't experiment on me" and so on. But ivermectin that is truly experimental? Bring it ON!!!

@tabbibus - The medical community is not a monolithic block of thought on this. What is your answer to a vaccinated person who contracts COVID?

 

[scbruet]

Not allowed to post the answer to that on this site.

yeah....that was my assumption. Thats all I need to know.

 

[ripler]

We will never see the end of this pandemic because people are acting like complete idiots. Pennsylvania had a mask mandate for schools and daycares that started yesterday. Local schools in my area invited parents to meet with the school board members, doctors and nurses to discuss any concerns that parents may have. At our school district, the school board made it known that in order to attend the meeting you must wear a mask since it was on school property. Parents showed up without masks and they were asked to put a mask on or the meeting would be adjourned. A bunch of parents immediately started to call the board members names and threatening the school board members and even the doctors with "I know where you live." The board members adjourned the meeting and walked out of the auditorium while still being yelled at by the parents. These people are too stupid to realize that the state imposed the mask mandate and the school district doesn't have a choice in the matter.

My wife is a daycare director and she is putting up with shit from parents that she has no control over. She has parents complaining about the mask mandate at the daycare and parents saying that it's their choice to have their kids wear a mask or not. When she tries to explain that the daycare is licensed through the state and that they have to follow the state guidelines or they will lose their license, parents still argue. She has parents complaining that they are seeing kids without masks on and if they aren't wearing masks then their kid shouldn't have to either. She tried to explain to the parents that it's nearly impossible to keep a mask on a young kid and they aren't going to punish a kid for not keeping their mask on and that they are doing the best that they can. Her daycare has been pretty lucky that they've only had a handful of kids with covid and none of them got infected at the daycare.

I don't know what's more depressing watching what's going on in our country or knowing the end of boating season coming fast.

 

[Bizywk]

You should know, and I suspect you do know this story is a deliberately fabricated twist on Fauci's speech that is meant to imply he engaged in a cover up of Chinese "gain-of-function" efforts on covid virus, abbreviated as "GoF" by some (because they are so proficient in the matter, lol).

There is zero supporting evidence Fauci engaged in a cover up, in fact anyone with direct knowledge of Fauci's work considers it complete bullshit.

There is very little doubt the Chinese were/are hiding information, and did (more likely than not) engage in what could be construed as "gain-of-function" research on sars-viruses (as does every lab in the world because the term "gain-of-function" is extremely broad and in reality can encompass almost any modification of viral genome; infact, you could call covid vaccine an example of a gain-of-function approach if you stretched the definition and still be semantically correct).

That said, implying without evidence that Fauci is somehow a de facto Chinese agent is fraudulent, and unethical to the extreme, and purview of conspiratorial, foreign-peddled, misinformation fringe.

--

Who said Dr. Fauci was a Chinese agent? You're a good guy @swatski, please don't place words in my mouth or falsely accuse me of slander.

I cited video where Dr. Fauci himself was advocating Gain of Function research in WuHan as a counterpoint to the earlier statement that the US wasn't doing this work there.

 

[swatski]

So man-made is not proven false (which would be a neat trick), and admittedly unlikely. Gotcha. No proof it originated in a lab, no proof that it is man-made, and no proof it originated elsewhere. I prefer not to speak in absolutes. Thanks for clarifying.

For the record, I am not proficient in gain-of-function, nor have I ever claimed to be, but I sometimes abbreviate to save time. Back to the vaccine...

No gotcha for you.

You have made a number of wrong and/or absurd statements and misquoted me in numerous posts without making any acknowledgements or apologies.

I struggle to perceive you asinine behavior as information seeking, it looks like trolling.

--

 

[swatski]

Who said Dr. Fauci was a Chinese agent? You're a good guy @swatski, please don't place words in my mouth or falsely accuse me of slander.

I cited video where Dr. Fauci himself was advocating Gain of Function research in WuHan as a counterpoint to the earlier statement that the US wasn't doing this work at WuHan.

I stated that the video you were referring to was a part of a "deliberately fabricated twist on Fauci's speech", and I stated that "implying without evidence that Fauci is somehow a de facto Chinese agent is fraudulent, and unethical to the extreme, and purview of conspiratorial, foreign-peddled, misinformation fringe."

I stand by those statements, I did not accuse you of slander albeit you are in fact propagating slanderous materials, and I certainly did not put words in your mouth.

Fauci's words taken out of context and twisted to appear to mean something he certainly did not mean to imply - I say that's slanderous.

--

 

[Bruce]

I'm just confused on why people are trying to make Invermectin a thing? Where did it come fro

Not allowed to post the answer to that on this site.

yeah....that was my assumption. Thats all I need to know.

There were preclinical indications that ivermectin, an anti-parasitic, might have some effect in fighting SARS-CoV-2 infections. Small early studies using medical grade Ivermectin were inconclusive. Some found small amounts of benefit others did not. Larger studies have been the same. There are ongoing studies. Benefit and appropriate dosing has not been established.

Veterinary Ivermectin has been promoted for use outside of clinical studies. Often that was for political and financial gain. It is quite popular with some segments of society, especially those that distrust government. Major medical organizations recommend against humans taking veterinary ivermectin. Some have been hospitalized from overdosing on veterinary ivermectin. With issues as severe as liver failure some will have very bad outcomes.

It may be determined that medical grade ivermectin has a small benefit. Comparing to vaccination and monoclonal antibody study data it is clear that any eventually proven benefit will be many fold lower than that of vaccination or antibodies.

 

[Bizywk]

Just because a discussion point disagrees with you, doesn't make it trolling, and there's no reason to continue to smear someone for having a different viewpoint. Don't be childish. Never slander the other side, enhance your argument.

I guess Jetboaters is just becoming another troll social media site where honest debate gets trashed in favor of name calling and disrespect.

 

[Lurch]

No gotcha for you.

You have made a number of wrong and/or absurd statements and misquoted me in numerous posts without making any acknowledgements or apologies.

I struggle to perceive you asinine behavior as information seeking, it looks like trolling.

--

Please elaborate my wrong/absurd statements and misquotes, and allow me to either retract or clarify.

 

[scbruet]

We will never see the end of this pandemic because people are acting like complete idiots. Pennsylvania had a mask mandate for schools and daycares that started yesterday. Local schools in my area invited parents to meet with the school board members, doctors and nurses to discuss any concerns that parents may have. At our school district, the school board made it known that in order to attend the meeting you must wear a mask since it was on school property. Parents showed up without masks and they were asked to put a mask on or the meeting would be adjourned. A bunch of parents immediately started to call the board members names and threatening the school board members and even the doctors with "I know where you live." The board members adjourned the meeting and walked out of the auditorium while still being yelled at by the parents. These people are too stupid to realize that the state imposed the mask mandate and the school district doesn't have a choice in the matter.

My wife is a daycare director and she is putting up with shit from parents that she has no control over. She has parents complaining about the mask mandate at the daycare and parents saying that it's their choice to have their kids wear a mask or not. When she tries to explain that the daycare is licensed through the state and that they have to follow the state guidelines or they will lose their license, parents still argue. She has parents complaining that they are seeing kids without masks on and if they aren't wearing masks then their kid shouldn't have to either. She tried to explain to the parents that it's nearly impossible to keep a mask on a young kid and they aren't going to punish a kid for not keeping their mask on and that they are doing the best that they can. Her daycare has been pretty lucky that they've only had a handful of kids with covid and none of them got infected at the daycare.

I don't know what's more depressing watching what's going on in our country or knowing the end of boating season coming fast.

Thats so sad. People really need to stop getting their medical information from memes on facebook created by russian trolls. Shocking that needs to be said.