Tipping...and I'm not talking about pushing cows over!

[Britboater]

It's been really interesting reading this thread, especially as my Daughters fiancée and his parents have joined us for the last two weeks and they just don't get or want to tip. It's been really embarrassing at times.
I've tried to argue the case but it just does not sink in, I mean tonight, we ate at our favourite resturant, the bill for six was $262, we halved the bill and they went to leave $10. The argument was, well the owner is obviously doing very well so he should pay his staff better....
I've tried the, well when in Rome do as the Romans do, but I'm beat. In the UK you tip in a resturant, but only what you want, no percentages etc and that's about it, plus my Daughters in laws are very tight with their money, so I know I'm on a losing battle.

 

[Big Shasta]

Went to dinner last night with my wife's sister. Had a great waitress...Having a good time with us, making jokes....interacting with the kids. Kept refills coming way early. AND they were packed when we got there so she was BUSY. I left 25.00 on 96.00. Well worth it, she worked hard for it.

 

[Ronnie]

I took everyone out to eat last night at a Chinese food restaurant. It was busy because its Chinese New Year. We had to reserve a table. Service was so so, actually it sucked, but I left her a $9 tip on a $50 bill anyway because technically for her she is working on a holiday and we were just happy the place was even open.

I understand that if you have been a waiter or waitress you may perceive the job as a hard one. However, and although I've never been a food server, I too have had hard jobs in which monetary tipping didn't apply. Examples include digging ditches around homes (these homes were in danger of sinking so the contractor had to, was sued into, digging ditches/trenches, 6" wide 3' deep, around them and fill them with concrete) or cannery work in Alaska (16 to 22 hours a day, 6 days a week, some times 7, all summer long). I dare say that both of these jobs were harder and still are more difficult than any food service jobs I can think of. That is the perspective I'm speaking from, hopefully this gives my position some context. The best and only tip I got from these jobs was a simple but effective lesson. If I want to make more money and work less hard for it I needed to stay in school to earn the education to put me in a better position to get a better job. More immediately I needed to get a different job to get different experience so I wouldn't get stuck working as a ditch digger or cannery laborer. In college I was a bank teller for almost five years, no tips obviously but my paycheck was always the same and always on time. If you are willing to work for tips that can vary or be altogether non-existent who am I to say you shouldn't but that doesn't mean I should be expected to give my money away either.

The laws and norms regarding tipping are changing, at least here in the u.s./ca, that is my Rome is changing, so I'm changing as well. Some call it frugal, some call it cheap, I call it smart tipping or more generally, informed or intelligent spending.

In retrospect I've engaged in harrying myself, my mom is a terrible tipper but she is also a great mom who raised two kids on her own as a registered nurse, many of which were spent on the floor moving and cleaning patients, sometimes one the graveyard shift, etc., that is, doing the hard stuff (no tips, not even from Joe Montana). Once she came to visit and took us out to eat at a local, too me, restaurant that I go to often. She didn't even try to calculate a percentage tip just left the change after breaking a $50 bill, I think it was under $2. I left a bigger tip when she wasn't looking only because I knew I'd be back and didn't want to get "the special" the next time I came in. If put in the same position today, I would do it again if the service was good but I wouldn't hide it from her, instead I'd explain why I'm leaving an additional tip. If I were in her shoes I can only hope that I would understand and not be offended. Live, learn and adapt as needed.

 

[Ronnie]

@Ronnie I think you find people pointing at you or you are finding yourself in the description of people that others have referenced. I don't think that is the case.

Tipping is a choice, just like working at one of the jobs you have worked in the past or currently, if you want to be paid well, do a good job and be rewarded by, in your case, keeping your job. In the case of the waiter, it is a matter of making rent or not so their choice should be simple, be a great server, get great tips and prosper.

The benefit to you is better service and lower cost of goods because the restaurant will usually charge less as employee costs are also lowered. Although that doesn't apply in all cases, tipping forces people to be good at serving.

Quite frankly, I think you would be well served to get a job as a waiter for a month or two. I think only then could you possibly appreciate the hard work they do and what a tip means to the one who receives it.

@cbus , I was just reviewing posts to this thread and came across the one above. Although I appreciate and understand what you stated I respectfully disagree with most of it. By default and depending on readers' perspectives I am either a good tipper or a bad one.

I also understand that tipping can make the difference between a waiter or waitress paying the rent, tuition, etc. or not. However, I did not put that person in the position of having to rely on tips for their livelihood. So I don't feel obligated to get them out of it or make up for it through tipping either.

Based on my experience, and I eat out a lot, tipping hasn't lowered the cost of my meals it has increased it. Especially here in CA where the tipped wage is the same as the non tipped wage. By analogy if I go to mcdonalds I pay say $7 for a Big Mac meal. If I go to red Robbin a may may pay $14 for a comparable meal. Sure I get seated and they bring my food to the table in the latter situation but the servers are getting the same minimum wage so in effect they are compensated equally. The increase in cost comes in the form of the tip that is expected at red Robbin but not at mcdonalds. So unless the service is exceptional, good is expected, I can't justify leaving much of a tip, if any. The social norm thing doesn't persuade me, anymore, I don't need a degree in finance, although I have one, to know that it is not advisable to assume that every time I eat at a "nice" restaraunt that I should pay extra for the meal, especially if the service was just ok or there is a tip line on the bill.

Quite frankly, I've been working in hard labor jobs since I was 15 and intentionally stayed away from the food service industry, not because I thought it was to difficult but because I don't like cleaning up after people, especially after they eat. There are plenty of other jobs that a person can get customer service experience from that aren't subject to tipping (e.g. Bank teller, fast food restaurant worker, etc.). If you've read my other posts on this subject I think you will understand that I've worked much harder jobs than a being a waiter and often for less money on an average hourly basis after the tips of tipped workers are factored in. I recall being in boot camp for the Navy, even afterwards as an E1 my monthly pay was just over $400 and I felt like I was on the clock 24/7, no tips. Those were my choices and I would make the same ones again at the drop of a hat if I had to. I don't need to work as a waiter for even an hour to appreciate what hard work is or what it means to get paid, well, for it. Quite honestly, if I found myself working as a waiter now I'd consider myself a failure.

I think it is important for anyone who relies on tips for their income to understand that tipping practices vary and change, sometimes slowly but constantly. Rather than try and fight these changes to preserve an in some cases antiquated pay structure I recommend looking for another/better job. If that means going back to school or taking a pay cut initially, so be it. It's rarely ever too late to become the person you want to be but no one said it would be easy or without sacrifice. On the contrary it will likely be very difficult and a require many sacrifices. I ate a lot of top ramen and drank a lot of tap water in college and law school. I remember being broke or near broke the whole time and for some time afterwards. In my case all the hard work and sacrifice paid off, eventually, and I did it without relying on tips to support me so I know it can be done.

I welcome a healthy debate as it serves to exchange ideas and understand different perspectives but I can also tell when the conversation has gone south or one side / person is feeling sighted when the name calling starts. That said, I understand why tipping came about and how it has evolved in the u.s. But have yet to read a response here or anywhere that explains why I as a patron must make up the difference in pay for tipped workers when their pay is not the same as non tipped workers. Nor do I understand why a tipped worker that does the same job as a non tipped worker should after tips are considered make more than a non tipped worker. If the server at McDonald's serves me fast and gets the order right why should he or she be paid less after tips than a server at red robbin? At the opposite end of the spectrum I don't think it is fair that a tipped worker should get paid less than a non tipped worker for the same job. It seems like the government discerns between tipped and non tipped workers so the government should pick up the difference not me, I just want hamburger, fries and a drink.

 

[Kevin107]

My tipping method is pretty simple: 15% for bad service, 20% for good service, and 25% for better than good service. (30% - 100% depending on how drunk I am and how hot the waitress is)

 

[Williamsone46]

I might get blasted for this but I vote to due away with tipping and instead the restaurants increase the amount of the meal 20% and pay the server/waitress a base + 15% cut of bill. Just my take, heck people would probably still tip on top of that if the service was excellent!

 

[Murf'n'surf]

I might get blasted for this but I vote to due away with tipping and instead the restaurants increase the amount of the meal 20% and pay the server/waitress a base + 15% cut of bill. Just my take, heck people would probably still tip on top of that if the service was excellent!

I agree but I bet servers would lose a ton of money in that deal. Cars should also be sold at one price all year, not at the price you negotiate to.

 

[cbus]

@Ronnie I also enjoy a good debate and I can see my perspective won't sway your opinion however I will say that you should be careful what you wish for.

If restaurants paid servers an increased flat wage and did away with tipping, my guess is your experience at most restaurants would be poor and I assure you that the price of the food would increase equally so if you look at it in that perspective, you would be essentially giving the same amount with or without the tip.

Government employees make pretty decent wages but have you ever had to deal with them? Not a good experience! Tipping is a good equalizer in that it requires the server to put on a happy face and provide quality service no matter what is going on in their lives because they know that is where their money is made. It benefits the restaurant, the waiter and more importantly, you!

Some use terms to describe people that don't tip or don't tip well as "cheap" or other choice words. I choose to think they are simply uninformed and opinionated. Thank goodness the majority don't agree with your way of thinking with regard to tipping. I know this because the overwhelming majority of my days in the restaurant business I received 20% and above and by the way most are reacting to this thread should be enough to tell you all you need to know.

With regard to your analogy about McD's and Red Robin, I don't know where to begin on that one. You also lost me when you went into your rant about finding other jobs and working hard etc... Most waiters and bartenders typically do the job part time as they are going to school or paying off debt and working another gig - they work hard! They also struggle to make ends meet but like me and many of my friends, we worked our way out and into a better life - always remembering what it took to get there and the benefit of good service.

Referencing someone as a "failure" because they are a certain age and work in a certain field you find offensive certainly comes off as negative and one sided. There are many people who have suffered the loss of a high paying job that have had to turn to waiting tables as one of their most likely 2 or 3 jobs just to live like they did before while they reconstruct their lives. They are anything but "failures"!

Thank goodness we have choices. I know yours and you know mine.

 

[OCMD]

"Some use terms to describe people that don't tip or don't tip well as "cheap" or other choice words. I choose to think they are simply uninformed and opinionated. "

Nope. They are cheap.

 

[Big Shasta]

My tipping method is pretty simple: 15% for bad service, 20% for good service, and 25% for better than good service. (30% - 100% depending on how drunk I am and how hot the waitress is)

15% for bad service? Really? Then the concept of tipping is completely lost on you.

I might get blasted for this but I vote to due away with tipping and instead the restaurants increase the amount of the meal 20% and pay the server/waitress a base + 15% cut of bill. Just my take, heck people would probably still tip on top of that if the service was excellent!

So where is the incentive for the service to be good? You would just be ok with mediocre service?

"Some use terms to describe people that don't tip or don't tip well as "cheap" or other choice words. I choose to think they are simply uninformed and opinionated. "

Nope. They are cheap.

Why is it that anyone who leaves a less than 20% tip is cheap and it's never taken as "maybe I should try and give better service"?

 

[Williamsone46]

So where is the incentive for the service to be good? You would just be ok with mediocre service?

If they don't provide good service they would get fired! What's the incentive for your local mechanic, salesman or bank teller to provide good service? They don't get tipped. If they don't provide a good experience to their customers, their customers don't return and ultimately they get fired. I don't get tipped does that mean I provide mediocre service?

Instead of being concerned that if they don't provide good service they won't get a good tip. They would be concerned that if they don't provide good service they won't get to keep their job.

 

[Big Shasta]

If they don't provide good service they would get fired! What's the incentive for your local mechanic, salesman or bank teller to provide good service? They don't get tipped. If they don't provide a good experience to their customers, their customers don't return and ultimately they get fired. I don't get tipped does that mean I provide mediocre service?

So you expect a manager to monitor how often they refill your drinks or stand next to them and see if they know the menu well and offer suggestions when the menu doesn't fit....Maybe you want a survey for every customer to fill out?

I bet if you asked 100 restaurant owners, they would say the tipping system speaks for itself, work hard for the table and make more money. How can they monitor it for an employee evaluation? What if you have 1 awesome and 1 bad waitress....you can't base it on business lost....I would avoid a place just because I'd be afraid of the 50% chance I get the bad employee.

If a waitress is making shitty tips, she doesn't stay around for the 3.xx per hour, she can't make any money that way....that's how the tipping system works.

 

[Williamsone46]

@Big Shasta the tipping system has been in effect for a long time and I imagine for good reason. I was only offering an alternative. By the majority of everyone's comments so far, they tip regardless of good service or bad. So it leads you to think what's the point? Why can't they get paid a salary and if you get awesome service give them a few bucks, if it's just average than just leave. If it's bad mention something to the manager.

 

[Ronnie]

Oh where do I begin. First, I recognize that someone has to serve food at restaurants but I also realize that that someone doesn't have to be me. My statement about being a failure if I found myself waiting tables is a personal one that only applies too me. Some people are fine with it and work to be the best wait person they can, good for them but it has never been nor will it ever be a goal of mine or good enough for me.

I haven't had an opportunity to try this yet, thankfully, but now if I got bad service here in CA I would simply not leave a tip at all. If the server was dumb enough to say anything about it I'd have him or her bring the manager over to discuss the matter. He or she gets paid as much as the fast food worker in CA the tip, since it comes after the meal is an extra financial thank you for doing a good job. If they didn't keep my drink full, if I had to constantly ask for refills or my order was wrong, no tip. I don't usually blame the wait staff for a meal being late but if tips are shared by the cooks I should be applying the same tipping mentality to late meals.

I'm sorry if I lost anyone with my analogies but my point is simple, I keep hearing about how waiting tables is so hard so waiters deserve a tip, and I think BS, waiting tables doesn't even come close to a lot of the jobs I've had when it comes to difficulty and none of those jobs were subject to tipping. If how hard or stressful a job was determined if it was subject to tips, I would be tipping many others I deal with not wait staff. I've never tipped an airline pilot but maybe I should since I have a much greater interest in an airline pilot doing a good job than a waiter doing one. My other point being if tipping practices are changing such that a waiter can't make as much as they used to, get a new job, bitching won't help and bitching to a patron who you perceive has stiffed you for not leaving a completely discretionary tip will likely get you fired, not a bigger tip.

I deal with government employees all the time. The best example is the dmv. For the most part they provide shitty service, usually slow, sometimes just wrong. However, there are still a few that do a great job not in the hope of getting a big tip, since I've never seen a dmv employee get a tip, but for the satisfaction of doing a job well. I and my coworkers don't get tips, most of us spend a lot of time getting the job done right the first time because we take pride in doing good work and it is simply expected of us. Tipping seems to send the wrong message in my opinion, like do a good job only if there is something extra in it for you. THe financial rationale for tipping has been done away with in ca (and seven. Other states) why should tipped employees not have the same mentality as non-tipped employees in these states?

I'm a fan of @OCMD , not because I always agree with him but because he is brutally honest with his opinions. Still that doesn't mean that I will be bullied, embarrassed or shamed into changing the way I tip / paying for standard or substandard service. @cbus I've done a lot of research into tipping lately so I'm sure I'm not simply uninformed, I am opinionated, but also educated. Tipping for bad service simply because it is the norm (seemingly here in the us) just doesn't make sense too me.

Some related notes:

I saw my accountant at this past weekend and she mentioned that unlike charitable contributions (e.g. To a church) tips are not tax deductible. If I'm making a pros and cons list on tipping this would definitely be a con and just another reason not to engage in tipping.

I also resubscribed to the local newspaper. It was a $26 bill and I wrote in a $14 tip. Hopefully, the paper man and not just his employer gets it. I usually give him a cash tip at Christmas but didn't wake up in time to meet him this past year. Things have changed, my friends used to be paper boys when we were kids. They would deliver the paper on their bmx bikes and walk to the front door to collect the fees and their tips, if any. Now my paper boy is man that delivers the paper from a used Lexus and the bill is mailed to me in the form of a subscription renewal.

Last night I picked up dinner from the spaghetti factory. The receptionist took my order and said it will be ready in 15 minutes, it ended up taking 30 so instead of a 10% tip on a $40 meal I simply added a dollar and change to get me to the next full dollar. I retrospect I shouldn't have even left that much since when I got home I found that she didn't include the plastic ware that I confirmed I wanted when she asked. I would have been better off paying my son the same money to set the table last night when we got home.

Tips stand for "to insure prompt service" and they they started as being given before the service was rendered not after it. It looks like the practice of tipping after the service was rendered started here in the u.s. If I remember, the next time I eat out, I will estimate the final bill pull 30% out in cash and let the waiter or waitress know this is their potential tip, work for it or it will decrease. It will be interesting to see the result, hopefully I don't end up getting poisoned with the special and vomiting or sitting on the toilet for the day.

 

[Jim Robeson]

It's been interesting seeing how this thread has taken off. I only worked in at one food place when I was in high school. Hard work, not compared to what else I have done in my life. But I did try and do the best I could for the folks I was helping. One story, was working the counter of this ice cream place we used to have here. Man comes in with two of his kids and orders 3 ice cream cones. I tell him how much it is and he comes up short of less than a dollar. I tell him not to worry about it, I have it covered. He thanked me and went on. About an hour later he comes back in and tips me a $20 bill and hands me a stack of free hair cut coupons...side note, I used to have a lot of hair....and tells me he owns a place called Fantastic Sam's hair salon. He couldn't thank me enough. I really appreciated that as a teenager and have never forgotten how generous that man was.

 

[4x15mph]

This has been an interesting thread. My son works at a local sports bar & restaurant that is very crowded and a great spot for wings, pub food, and microbrews. When he works the Pick-up, there are nights that he has come home without having receiving a single tip. That is sad given that he gets less than minimum wage but fortunately he has only had to fill in on a few occasions since otherwise, he would not stay there.

We have a super grocery store in our region called Wegman's. They have an in-store pub that sells great grub and they did not allow tips since they paid their workers salaries or higher wages. It is interesting to see that this equation did not work out too well and here is what they are now changing to after remodeling their stores:

Excerpt:
"Also new when The Pub reopens is that tipping will be allowed. Previously, servers at Malvern and Collegeville could not accept tips. Now guests may tip their server as is permitted at other Wegmans Pubs. After experience with both tipping and no-tipping policies in restaurants Wegmans operates, the company has come to believe that tipping makes sense, and in fact, many customers have wanted to leave a tip, according to Haines. "

 

[Ronnie]

It's been interesting seeing how this thread has taken off. I only worked in at one food place when I was in high school. Hard work, not compared to what else I have done in my life. But I did try and do the best I could for the folks I was helping. One story, was working the counter of this ice cream place we used to have here. Man comes in with two of his kids and orders 3 ice cream cones. I tell him how much it is and he comes up short of less than a dollar. I tell him not to worry about it, I have it covered. He thanked me and went on. About an hour later he comes back in and tips me a $20 bill and hands me a stack of free hair cut coupons...side note, I used to have a lot of hair....and tells me he owns a place called Fantastic Sam's hair salon. He couldn't thank me enough. I really appreciated that as a teenager and have never forgotten how generous that man was.

I hear @Jim Robeson , thankfully there are still people out there like that. My recent story comes out of heavenly ski resort. My son broke on of his bindings and the repair shop was having a hard time fixing it. Rather than have us wait while slope time was burning they issued him a loaner board for free (normally $45 per day). On top of that when I turned in the board and went to pick up my sons repaired board they refused to charge me for the repair, even though at one time earlier I saw both of two techs working on it. Normally they charge $10 for the service. When I went to tip him I had to all but force him to take it, even than he would only take $10 of the $30 I tried to tip him, claiming in part that he already benefitted by learning how to deal with that particular binding problem. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen much too me. There seems to be a tip / gratuity line on all the bills of the restaurants I go to except the fast food ones. Whether I eat there or take it to go.

 

[BigN8]

I've pretty much stayed out of this but it's been an interesting read. Maybe bordering on beating a dead horse at this point. But, having said that, I was over at a buddies house today with some other guys, We got an inch of frozen percepitation, so that is enough to shut down the city, grab 2 cases of miller lite and break out the ping pong paddles for a good old fashion snow day battle royal of ping pong. I was telling the guys about this thread and how there were so many differing opinions. One of my friends said he worked as a waiter for years while attending TCU. He said when he would get stiffed on the tip that he essentially ended up paying for a portion of your meal. He had a set amount he had to tip the bar keeps and the bus boys at the end of the night, he said he thought it was 2% each of the total nights take. So it was a flat 4% no matter what. So if he got stiffed on a tip he still had to give the 4% at the end of the night.

That is why you would see or hear stories of wait staff chasing people out of a restaraunt for not tipping.

 

[Boat Crazy]

To add a slightly different turn on this I will state that I usually pay my meal ticket along with the tip, using my debit card. Some restaurants you pay your bill as you depart and not at the table where the waiter/waitress can see the amount of tip you leave. My question is: For those familiar with the tip receiving end, is putting your tip on the bill at the register instead of on the table a non-preferred way of tipping for the waiter/waitress.

 

[Ronnie]

I've pretty much stayed out of this but it's been an interesting read. Maybe bordering on beating a dead horse at this point. But, having said that, I was over at a buddies house today with some other guys, We got an inch of frozen percepitation, so that is enough to shut down the city, grab 2 cases of miller lite and break out the ping pong paddles for a good old fashion snow day battle royal of ping pong. I was telling the guys about this thread and how there were so many differing opinions. One of my friends said he worked as a waiter for years while attending TCU. He said when he would get stiffed on the tip that he essentially ended up paying for a portion of your meal. He had a set amount he had to tip the bar keeps and the bus boys at the end of the night, he said he thought it was 2% each of the total nights take. So it was a flat 4% no matter what. So if he got stiffed on a tip he still had to give the 4% at the end of the night.

That is why you would see or hear stories of wait staff chasing people out of a restaraunt for not tipping.

@Big Shasta , please help me understand the comment above. If your friend's payment to the barkeep and busboy were based on what he actually got in tips how did he pay for a patron's meal that stiffed him on the tip. Maybe I'm not articulating this clearly, but it sounds like your friend pays his coworkers/shares his (their ?) tips based on on what he takes in (e.g. 4% of $100 in tips is $4) not on what his expected tips should be (e.g. 15% on tonight's total meal revenue, say $1,000 in total meals sales, 15% being $150 and 4% of that being $6).

I haven't heard of anyone being chased out because they left a bad tip or didn't leave one at all but the recent stories of the church of Scientology in LA stiffing two pizza delivery guys of their tips on $2,000 + pizzas bill and another one where a car dealer tried to embarrass a pizza delivery guy for assuming he got a $7 tip on a $43 bill come to mind. Remember these?

http://laist.com/2015/01/07/scientology_stiff_papa_johns_pizza.php

http://kitchenette.jezebel.com/car-dealership-dicks-over-pizza-guy-on-tip-it-backfire-1679603660

Than there are some stories that go the other way but most of the time only make news when a celebrity is involved (e.g., rock/movie star only left a $20 tip on a $2000 bill, I think the sf giants were accused of bad tipping after winning the last World Series but it was in the context of them opening a $25k bottle / magnum? Of wine or champagne so I don't know if they stiffed their server or if they just tipped differently for things like that bottle. Funny, this goes back to the original question: how do you tip on a bottle of wine? By the cost or the effort? It takes the same effort to open $25k bottle and a $25 bottle. Now much better can the waiter or waitress make the experience? $500 / $5 or $20% better?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/02/waitress-fired-facebook-kirsten-kelly_n_5552922.html

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/09/11/daves-bbq-waitress-complains-bad-tips-facebook/