Towing with Tesla Model X

[Liveto99]

There can be two types of drivers.

 

[thefortunes]

Still looking at the pics above

Last attempt at sanity...

I selected a town midway between Hazard and Norton and again ran Google Maps:

Google shows 285 miles and driving through London, KY. What route do you take? Adding the 115 miles for errands and visit to in-laws (we don't know where they are) gets us to 400 miles. Tesla Model S range is 370. I'm curious what you currently drive since the average range of cars in America is 412 miles (per 1st Google result showing DoE data) so you would most likely be stopping for gas somewhere during this day.

I offered 2 options that would work:

1) Stop at London Supercharger (I would do this on the way home). Would take about 5 minutes of charging and about 5 minutes to get off/on the highway. 10 minutes vs a 5 minutes gas stop.

2) Charge at either of the parents' homes. If they have a 240v outlet already (you haven't answered this - could be dryer, welder, etc...) then you are all set. If not, an outlet can typically be installed for $50. Note that most new construction is including these in garages as builders see this coming. 10 seconds to plug and unplug.

Neither is deemed acceptable, but you haven't really said why other than it just "doesn't work for everyone" or you don't want to install "a crutch."

This is a really fringe case that can be solved with an extra 5 minutes or $50 one time cost. Maybe it does actually work for 98% of the population as statistics show.

Have a great day.

 

[Trevor Shipman]

Lots of back and forth here on why it can’t work and why it can... Everyone has a point to be made.

I side on this (simple to me logic): I have no clue if global warming is real or not, but I’m pretty positive what we are doing to this world is not good. Ultimately we have all come accustomed to everything needs to be convenient. “I don’t recycle because there aren’t any recycle bins close to my house”. Plain and simple, you are lazy and I can’t imagine what other corners you are cutting in your life. “I don’t return my shopping cart because the cart corral is too far away” - Again, you’re lazy. No other way to say it.

Yes there is cost to going green. Yes there are inconveniences to going green. And yes I know Tesla and EV’s still have a negative impact on the earth but it’s a step in the right direction. We have to get serious out taking care of this place. I’m not a hippie. I don’t make my own soap. I do things that have a negative impact on the earth. But I try to make a difference where I can. No plastic bags. No straw with my drinks. Walking in the parking lot I’ll pick up trash that is not mine since I’m walking right by it. I can do more. And I need to do more. But saying “I can’t stop to charge” is a quitters attitude. If we never developed the combustible engine and we started with EV’s in 1908, and we had to charge every 50 miles, it would just be the life we knew and the world would still turn. We would still make it MawMaw’s house to help with chores.

I’m fine with being inconvenienced if it lessens my footprint.

 

[swatski]

Still looking at the pics above

Last attempt at sanity...

I selected a town midway between Hazard and Norton and again ran Google Maps:
View attachment 107168
Google shows 285 miles and driving through London, KY. What route do you take? Adding the 115 miles for errands and visit to in-laws (we don't know where they are) gets us to 400 miles. Tesla Model S range is 370. I'm curious what you currently drive since the average range of cars in America is 412 miles (per 1st Google result showing DoE data) so you would most likely be stopping for gas somewhere during this day.

I offered 2 options that would work:

1) Stop at London Supercharger (I would do this on the way home). Would take about 5 minutes of charging and about 5 minutes to get off/on the highway. 10 minutes vs a 5 minutes gas stop.

2) Charge at either of the parents' homes. If they have a 240v outlet already (you haven't answered this - could be dryer, welder, etc...) then you are all set. If not, an outlet can typically be installed for $50. Note that most new construction is including these in garages as builders see this coming. 10 seconds to plug and unplug.

Neither is deemed acceptable, but you haven't really said why other than it just "doesn't work for everyone" or you don't want to install "a crutch."

This is a really fringe case that can be solved with an extra 5 minutes or $50 one time cost. Maybe it does actually work for 98% of the population as statistics show.

Have a great day.

I believe you have made your point very clearly, I've learned a ton from your posts in this thread.
I do, however, think it ill-advised to consider internet mapping services (be it by Google, or Tesla) as an "end all be all" source. At least for now.
(Just ask @BigAbe75 about Google Maps' utility when traveling rural Missouri/Arkansas, I believe he has an opinion, lol.)

From personal experience I can tell you there are parts around here we travel where not in a cat in hell's chance would I want to be caught looking for a charger for my Tesla, lol. Not because the places are necessarily unsafe, it just isn't a commonplace in those parts, it would be immediately conspicuous.

--

 

[BigAbe75]

(Just ask @BigAbe75 about Google Maps' utility when traveling rural Missouri/Arkansas, I believe he has an opinion, lol.)
--

That made me laugh!! Yes, I now prefer the directions of real people over my phone when traveling to Bull Shoals Lake in N Arkansas.

 

[thefortunes]

I believe you have made your point very clearly, I've learned a ton from your posts in this thread.
I do, however, think it ill-advised to consider internet mapping services (be it by Google, or Tesla) as an "end all be all" source. At least for now.
(Just ask @BigAbe75 about Google Maps' utility when traveling rural Missouri/Arkansas, I believe he has an opinion, lol.)

From personal experience I can tell you there are parts around here we travel where not in a cat in hell's chance would I want to be caught looking for a charger for my Tesla, lol. Not because the places are necessarily unsafe, it just isn't a commonplace in those parts, it would be immediately conspicuous.

--

That was my intent, to educate those who haven't had the experience (yet?) to understand the differences between EV and ICE/gas travel and answer their questions.

Agreed on Google Maps, which is why I have asked (more than once) for locations and routes.

I can say that I have charged at 39 different Tesla supercharger locations (3,700 kWh drawn), at all times of the day and night, and have never felt unsafe.

I have used 3 other public charging locations (200 kWh drawn - parked at the airport being the main one) so you can see that you really don't need anything other than the Tesla supercharger network and your home (17,000 kWh drawn).

Since I shared that info, I did a quick calc...
Charged 17,000 kWh at home - $1,200 - for 65,000 miles driven. If we had driven a 30mpg ICE/gas car those 65,000 miles, at $3.00/gallon we would have spent $6,500.

 

[Liftr]

I will concede that it is theoretically possible to do this trip in an EV.

But, only if Someone is willing to become a slave to the car, instead of using it as a tool to accomplish the desired tasks in the most time and cost effective manner.
And providing your own infrastructure to support the trip. BTW, did you read about the poor Californians whose Tesla cars were turned into paper weights with the recent power outage?
Rural infrastructure is not 100% dependable.

Here are my major hang ups;
1. Spending $100K on a car!
2. Having to plan my activities around servicing said $100K car.

Leaving Richmond, having already eaten breakfast, why would I want to stop in the first 50 miles to juice up the car?
That is wasted time. IMHO.
Returning to Richmond, having enjoyed dinner at Mom’s, why would I want to stop at 2000L, just to get enough juice to make it home with a low battery, and no reserves?

Look, I’m all for new and improved things.
I’m also thankful for you eager, first adopter types. Because, without you guys, VCR’s would still cost $1,000!
I’m hoping that with you guys paying for Elon’s R&D, I can look forward to $50K 3/4 ton truck, that gets 1,000 miles on a charge. (30% of which is still provided by coal)

 

[thefortunes]

I will concede that it is theoretically possible to do this trip in an EV.

But, only if Someone is willing to become a slave to the car, instead of using it as a tool to accomplish the desired tasks in the most time and cost effective manner.
And providing your own infrastructure to support the trip. BTW, did you read about the poor Californians whose Tesla cars were turned into paper weights with the recent power outage?
Rural infrastructure is not 100% dependable.

Here are my major hang ups;
1. Spending $100K on a car!
2. Having to plan my activities around servicing said $100K car.

Leaving Richmond, having already eaten breakfast, why would I want to stop in the first 50 miles to juice up the car?
That is wasted time. IMHO.
Returning to Richmond, having enjoyed dinner at Mom’s, why would I want to stop at 2000L, just to get enough juice to make it home with a low battery, and no reserves?

Look, I’m all for new and improved things.
I’m also thankful for you eager, first adopter types. Because, without you guys, VCR’s would still cost $1,000!
I’m hoping that with you guys paying for Elon’s R&D, I can look forward to $50K 3/4 ton truck, that gets 1,000 miles on a charge. (30% of which is still provided by coal)

Just for others reading (I understand that you aren't interested, so avert your eyes) see my responses (most of which are reiterations of what I have said before)...

1) Nope, I didn't read about paperweights. Please share the actual details, not just a "wait, this could happen so Tesla is proactively advising people to charge before the blackouts and noting that supercharger availability status is on the screen in the car." Remember, gas stations don't pump if the power is out. I didn't see any ICE/gas car manufacturers proactively advising people to go get gas, even though the average range of a ICE/gas car (per the DoE) is only 40 miles farther than a Model S.

1a) Some of us have solar which charges up to 100% of our driving needs (outside of supercharger travel). While that is more likely in other climes, even here in WI I have 2 friends who do.

2) Model S is $80k (3.7 secs 0-60mph), not $100k (unless you are ordering the performance version which improves to 2.4 secs 0-60mph). Model 3 starts at $40k and goes to $60k. All numbers rounded. I get that you don't spend that much on a car. Some people do. Some people spend way more than that (for less performance, lol).

3) What part of plugging in is planning? Do you consider it planning to plug in your phone?

4) I agreed you wouldn't stop on the way there, and the preferred option is to plug in at a parents' house. You still haven't answered what you drive and whether you have to stop for gas in those 400 miles (that takes time too).

5) You don't need a reserve when you arrive home - that's one of the beauties of an EV. YOU NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WAKING UP WITH A LOW "TANK."

6) Not an eager, first adopter. Waited until 2013 (5 years after first Roadster) to buy one, and 2016 (4 years after first Model S) to buy it.

7) You won't see a 1,000 mile truck any time soon. No reason to carry around that much battery weight for 99%+ of the trips that don't require it.

Have a great day.

ETA: You used the term "become a slave to the car." For 99+% of all drives you would not have to think about anything (in fact less than an ICE/gas car because you wouldn't even have to pay attention to the gauge to see if you have to stop for gas that day). For the <1% of drives where you would exceed 370 miles yep, you would have to spend about 10 seconds thinking whether there is charging at your destination (preferred) or put your destination into the GPS and let it figure the route - with supercharging - for you.

 

[Tyguy]

I won't dive into the ongoing discussion, but rather I'll just post on my personal experience. Last year we bought our first EV, a long range Tesla Model 3, after strongly considering a Volt and even attempting to buy one but running into Chevy dealer challenges. Our Tesla is not an extra vehicle. It's my primary vehicle and my family has done two longer trips out of town with it, including a 1,700-mile trip to/from rural central US and another 1,200-mile trip to/around Utah and back home.

At no time have we ever been worried about range. Period. We've only used the Super Charger network on those two longer trips and the experience was amazingly calm. Rather than stress test our bladders, every few hours we'd pull over for a short period of 30 minutes max, use the restroom, maybe grab some food, and then resume our journey. Those trips were the most relaxing road trips I've done and I appreciate the short down time to walk around and stretch.

The rest of the time we charge at home, usually once or twice a week when I'm parked in our garage and plug into our $500 Tesla home charger that's connected to our 220V 40 amp garage circuit. Doing the math I'll spend less of my time charging than I will filling up with liquid fuel in my Audi ICE (sold when we bought the Tesla). That's a fact.

We've installed enough solar to power both our home and our Tesla. In a few years we'll buy a second EV and when we do we'll add another solar array to cover that demand, too. We're still attached to the grid, and draw off it in when we don't generate enough to cover demand, and add to it the rest of the time. Net-net we're slightly in the positive in terms of generation versus demand.

Owning an EV, and in particular a Tesla, has been the most fun and rewarding vehicle ownership of my life. I haven't been excited about driving for the sake of driving in a long, long time, but the Tesla has made it fun all over again. I feel those same thrills I did when I first started driving as a teen. A year into ownership I still turnaround to look at the 3 after parking, I smile and grin when I punch the accelerator, I marvel at the technology, and I love talking about it with curious people who stop me to ask questions.

Now, would I tow with a Tesla X? Maybe. If my home and typical water bodies were located conveniently within range or near a Super Charger network, well, then why not? They're great vehicles. The first production units were a bit rough out of the gate, but Tesla made adjustments and today they're solid SUVs.

So, how long before water craft shift to electric? Imagine a dead silent Yamaha jet boat. I think there's a Canadian company that's started producing some some battery EV personal watercraft. Submarines and some large ocean vessels are already electric. I could see this happening, and even with jet propulsion since electric motors are great at spinning really fast without wear/tear/noise/vibration.

 

[Liftr]

1. During the most recent forest fire, with the “rolling blackouts”, those Tesla owners who arrived home with a low battery, expecting to charge at home, were left stranded.
1a. Very few people have solar power.
2. $80K is a lot of money.
3. I can still use my phone while it is getting charged.
4. I drive a diesel pickup with a 38 gallon tank, and the ability to carry another 100 gallons with me.
5. See #1.
6. Okay.
7. Maybe someday.

I’m all for new (affordable and practical) technology advances.
I have a trucking company, where I spend about $100K/year on diesel.
In my day job, I’m personally responsible for burning about $3 million/year worth of dinosaurs.

Looking forward to the savings.

 

[thefortunes]

1. During the most recent forest fire, with the “rolling blackouts”, those Tesla owners who arrived home with a low battery, expecting to charge at home, were left stranded.
1a. Very few people have solar power.
2. $80K is a lot of money.
3. I can still use my phone while it is getting charged.
4. I drive a diesel pickup with a 38 gallon tank, and the ability to carry another 100 gallons with me.
5. See #1.
6. Okay.
7. Maybe someday.

I’m all for new (affordable and practical) technology advances.
I have a trucking company, where I spend about $100K/year on diesel.
In my day job, I’m personally responsible for burning about $3 million/year worth of dinosaurs.

Looking forward to the savings.

1) Please provide evidence of just one person
2) Agreed
3) I sleep when car and phone are being charged
4) OK, thanks for finally answering the question. What is your range?
5) Provide evidence
6)
7) Really doubtful as the business case just isn't there

 

[2kwik4u]

So the heart of this argument is not empirical at any level. Logic is not at play here. This is an emotional argument that is raging on here. Both sides equally passionate about their position.

I do not want an EV. My truck is a tool, and the more versatile I can make it, the happier I am. Having to stop to charge, or otherwise re-arrange my day is an agitation. Sure it probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, and sure I can probably rearrange my day to make it have less impact. The problem is the perception of what that looks like without having lived it. Flexibility is king when I'm travelling or working. I might not use it every time, but my anxiety goes down when I have more flexibility. The current infrastructure favors the ICE in terms of flexibility, mostly in terms of time to refuel and get moving again to finish up whatever adventure I'm on.

In the end, both are viable solutions, however one will keep my nerves at a much lower state of alert

 

[thefortunes]

So the heart of this argument is not empirical at any level. Logic is not at play here. This is an emotional argument that is raging on here. Both sides equally passionate about their position.

I do not want an EV. My truck is a tool, and the more versatile I can make it, the happier I am. Having to stop to charge, or otherwise re-arrange my day is an agitation. Sure it probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, and sure I can probably rearrange my day to make it have less impact. The problem is the perception of what that looks like without having lived it. Flexibility is king when I'm travelling or working. I might not use it every time, but my anxiety goes down when I have more flexibility. The current infrastructure favors the ICE in terms of flexibility, mostly in terms of time to refuel and get moving again to finish up whatever adventure I'm on.

In the end, both are viable solutions, however one will keep my nerves at a much lower state of alert

Not an emotional argument on my side at all. I have provided data that others can use to make their own decisions. I understand the anxiety that comes from changing to any unknown (in this case EVs) and am trying to provide info to help alleviate that anxiety by making it LESS unknown. That may make me an EV enthusiast to some people.

I agree that the current infrastructure (built over 100 years) favors ICE/gas, but in 99%+ of scenarios IT DOESN'T MATTER. You charge at home. You don't have to rearrange anything.

I have charged away from home 42x in 4 years, or about once a month. To be honest many of those were just because I could (there is a supercharger 30 miles from me at a location that I frequent often and, what the hell, free electrons ).

Even in the extreme scenario being discussed, I have pointed out over and over again that Liftr may not need to change anything to use a Tesla, other than plug in while he is visiting. Doesn't seem onerous to me.

As Tyguy mentioned above, he will spend less time filling up with his Tesla vs his Audi, and none of it will be in the rain, or snow. Does anyone really enjoy going to a gas station? (My brother-in-law owns multiple gas stations and probably wouldn't be happy with me for saying that).

ETA: It's funny how perceptions change over time. The comment about ICE/gas flexibility keeping your anxiety level lower is exactly the opposite for me now. I absolutely HATE having to rent an ICE/gas car and needing to refuel (among other things).

 

[Dean P]

Guys, guys, guys. Relax. There's always an answer to every problem. No worries...

 

[thefortunes]

Guys, guys, guys. Relax. There's always an answer to every problem. No worries...

View attachment 107175

There you go, extended range. LOL

 

[Liftr]

I don’t feel like I’m being emotional about this either. For me, this is not the 1% extreme case.
It amounts to about 7% of my vehicle usage.
As for just plugging in while visiting, I think it would be humorous to roll out a 100’ of extension cord to plug in a $86.1K car while Mom makes lunch!

@Dean P , thanks for the idea. My service truck does have a welder/generator mounted on it!

 

[thefortunes]

I don’t feel like I’m being emotional about this either. For me, this is not the 1% extreme case.
It amounts to about 7% of my vehicle usage.
As for just plugging in while visiting, I think it would be humorous to roll out a 100’ of extension cord to plug in a $86.1K car while Mom makes lunch!

@Dean P , thanks for the idea. My service truck does have a welder/generator mounted on it!

It might not be <1% for you, but it is for the general population.

And, as a stats guy, you should really use instances, not mileage when talking about cases. How often do you get back to see your family?

I think that would be humorous also. However, I do not carry an extension cord, much less one that is 100'. This is the type of comment that "creates anxiety" which I have been trying to debunk throughout this exchange.

Again, the car is $80k (at least you've finally come down from $100k ).

 

[seanmclean]

1) Please provide evidence of just one person

Evidence isn't really required. If you have a long-term power outage like they did in CA, or like we often get here in NJ with winter storms - you're going to run into a pickle - especially if you need to go to work during those days. An EV is in my future once the truck is paid off (since it makes zero sense for me to drive a friggin truck 80 miles a day), but i need the truck for other things and i'm not baller enough for two nice cars, and I tried the shitbox thing for a commuter for a while and wanted to gnaw my arm off in traffic. Point is, I'll always have an ICE vehicle because EV is not without potential hiccups, and if you live somewhere with poor public transportation, hiccups are not an option.

 

[thefortunes]

Evidence isn't really required. If you have a long-term power outage like they did in CA, or like we often get here in NJ with winter storms - you're going to run into a pickle - especially if you need to go to work during those days. An EV is in my future once the truck is paid off (since it makes zero sense for me to drive a friggin truck 80 miles a day), but i need the truck for other things and i'm not baller enough for two nice cars, and I tried the shitbox thing for a commuter for a while and wanted to gnaw my arm off in traffic. Point is, I'll always have an ICE vehicle because EV is not without potential hiccups, and if you live somewhere with poor public transportation, hiccups are not an option.

You might have missed the concept that gas stations don't pump without power either, and the average car has pretty close to the same range as a Model S.

Also Tesla is starting to put solar and battery storage at superchargers.

P.S. I live in WI, we aren't immune to storms either. But in 50+ years here I can count on 1 hand (ok, might be 1 finger) how many times power has been out for more than 1 day due to a storm.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I’ve not looked into EVs or Tesla in general so I’m overall clueless. With the amount of tech in these cars, what’s the bill going look like when something goes down as these cars age 5, 8, 10 years? I can’t imagine it will be cheap. For me personally, I cannot justify the purchase price regardless of performance. I have no problem going electric for range over 300, but the prices have to come down significantly before I’d be a buyer. We need more real competition for Tesla.