Towing with Tesla Model X

[2kwik4u]

Will they do it? Seems like you want your cake and to eat it too. You can't have it both ways. We'll either get the price point or we'll get the tech. You can't bitch about high prices and then complain about poor quality at the same time. Manufacturing doesn't work that way.

I fight this daily and a really good example are bearings. We sell large industrial equipment. We bought a company out of bankruptcy that stacked safety and reliability factors so high they priced themselves out of the market. By having more reasonable lifetimes on replaceable components, as well as more realistic lifespans of the overall piece of equipment, we were competitive again.

Maintenance on any machine should be expected, and vehicles are wildly complicated consumer machines. Solid state or mechanical parts you ALWAYS trade reliability for initial cost. Don't want $105k trucks? Expect them to not have the best tech/range/batteries/etc. If 200mi isn't a reasonable range and $105k isn't a reasonable price, then one or the other has to give.

Honestly, you seem hurt or mad in general that these vehicles aren't for you. I get we're just bench racing here, but shew buddy it comes across like you're looking for reasons for this to not work instead of to work. Who hurt you man?

 

[Tyguy]

I can agree the general public is ignorant of battery tech and believes they’re a commodity. Those who follow the advancements know differently. Pouch vs cylindrical, different chemistries, dimensional design, different cathode and anode construction, and now Tesla’s tabless design. And that’s just the cell, not the battery. Then you factor in thermal control designs, charge and discharge logic, cell layout, connection point construction, and more. Just ask GM and LG how hard it is to build a quality EV battery. These aren’t cell phones we’re talking about.

 

[thefortunes]

...

Honestly, you seem hurt or mad in general that these vehicles aren't for you. I get we're just bench racing here, but shew buddy it comes across like you're looking for reasons for this to not work instead of to work. Who hurt you man?

Lol - this was you when the thread started. Remember?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Interesting discussion on batteries. When the Prius came out, I remember thinking, "who the hell is going to buy one of these if you need to replace the batteries in a couple of years?" Turns out you didn't have to replace the batteries in a couple of year. Who knew? ?‍ Maybe everyone except me!

Jim

 

[2kwik4u]

Lol - this was you when the thread started. Remember?

The whole premise of learning and changing ones viewpoint based on new information presented is a wonderful thing isn't it.

I was wrong, just took some education to get me to come around. Was actually thinking that same thing as I pushed reserve on an EV based pickup.

 

[Tyguy]

Here's some interesting reading on Li-Ion battery recycling. I've seen the current process and it's highly manual and chemical intensive, and not anywhere near what we'll need in the future. Talk about an amazing opportunity for some inventive chemical engineers to find a cheaper, faster processes. There's a chance for someone to retire by just creating the process and selling it to a large company that can scale up.

I think reuse will probably be the first use of exhausted EV batteries and I'd love a couple of Model 3 packs to pair with our house solar. Eventually those will need recycling and we'll need new solutions when that time comes.

Lithium batteries' big unanswered question

 

[BlkGS]

The whole premise of learning and changing ones viewpoint based on new information presented is a wonderful thing isn't it.

I was wrong, just took some education to get me to come around. Was actually thinking that same thing as I pushed reserve on an EV based pickup.

I mean, there's nothing for me to cha ge my viewpoint on, lol. I'm not anti EV, I don't think batteries are the most efficient form of energy storage, but that's what we are given. I think in a decade or 2 we will all laugh about when we though huge expensive heavy batteries on cars were a good idea, as we drive cars with electric motors that store power in some sort of more efficient fuel source.

I look at things highly analytically, as I'm an engineer. I also get nothing out of being an early adopter, I don't worship at the altar of New ideas for the sake of being different,. All I are about is does it work better in the situations presented. In a lot of situations, EVs do work better. School busses for example should all be electric, as they only get used for a portion of a day and don't drive particularly far in a day, plus you can load the roof up with PV and get a bit of charge from that too. But for me, charge time over what a gas pumpntakes is a deal breaker, because my time is more valuable than the cost of gas. If they have 5000A charging stations that can push insane amounts of charge in without issue, that'd solve my issue, but for (hopefully) obvious reasons, thats unlikely to happen.

I actually have a ood friend who's family is a perfect case for an EV. He has a Tahoe they can load his family in for long trips. His wife has a smaller crossover that could be replaced by an EV without any issues. She drives 100 miles a day or so, and could charge nightly. They won't buy an EV, because she's a cheap ass who wants to get a newer forester than the one she has, and they as a pharmacist/lawyer couple make so much money that nobody would dare say they need a tax credit to afford it. But you know, they are kinda the perfect case.

Me on the other hand, I'm not. I have a vehicle too small for my family, and my wife's new vehicle needs to be able to haul the family, boat, and do long trips. You could argue that once we had her vehicle we could get me into an EV, but that's 5 years away. If Ford made an Explorer or Edge RS that looked just like a normal one, was fast as shit, and happened to be an electric, I'd be game. Or if Keeps follow up to the trackhawk was the electrichawk, and it was the same kinds thing. But, it'd need to be priced right, engineered to last, and not have these stupid interior and exterior styling that scream "I'm so futurist with my insanely minimalistic overly modern interior".

I'll end the long winded rant with this, it's not that I'm not willing to get an EV. It's that the automakers aren't making an EV for someone like me. They're making them for people who want to make a statement that they're EV owners, and I want an EV that you can't tell from a gas vehicle.

As an aside, man people get hurt when you don't like EVs, lol. Just because I have a different viewpoint doesn't mean I'm angry, or was hurt or anything like that. Y'all gotta chill out and not be so sensitive, lol.

 

[BlkGS]

Here's some interesting reading on Li-Ion battery recycling. I've seen the current process and it's highly manual and chemical intensive, and not anywhere near what we'll need in the future. Talk about an amazing opportunity for some inventive chemical engineers to find a cheaper, faster processes. There's a chance for someone to retire by just creating the process and selling it to a large company that can scale up.

I think reuse will probably be the first use of exhausted EV batteries and I'd love a couple of Model 3 packs to pair with our house solar. Eventually those will need recycling and we'll need new solutions when that time comes.

Lithium batteries' big unanswered question

I've seen a few cases where they use them as battery backups or off grid power storage. But yeah, it's a gaping hole in the life cycle that needs fixed. There's only so many places that can make much use of a worn out li ion battery.

 

[2kwik4u]

Definitely a new Avalanche. Same functionality as the originals.

AllTerrainTrucks™ on Instagram: "What yall think about the configurability of the new EV Silverado (Avalanche) @pushingpistons #silverado #ev #avalanche"

41K likes, 1,142 comments - allterraintrucks on January 9, 2022: "What yall think about the configurability of the new EV Silverado (Avalanche) @pushingpistons #silverado #ev #avalanche".

www.instagram.com

 

[J-RAD]

Definitely a new Avalanche. Same functionality as the originals.

AllTerrainTrucks™ on Instagram: "What yall think about the configurability of the new EV Silverado (Avalanche) @pushingpistons #silverado #ev #avalanche"

41K likes, 1,142 comments - allterraintrucks on January 9, 2022: "What yall think about the configurability of the new EV Silverado (Avalanche) @pushingpistons #silverado #ev #avalanche".

www.instagram.com

Avalanche was my very first thought when I saw it then the videos confirmed it.

Should have called it the EValanche... missed opportunity. That's that I'm calling it though.

I was running a few pages behind, so I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but why are all these automakers (with the exception of the F150) going unibody on these pickups? Tesla, Rivian, Hummer, Silverado. Seems like they're going to limit the versatility in the platform for bed size options. Also, repair-ability cost of fixing a damaged bedside or whole bed replacement vs a damaged unibody. It becomes expensive and impractical. Was this an issue with the Avalanche platform?

Either way, there will be a lot of folks that won't want to or can't sacrifice rear seating for bed space and would prefer longer bed options.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Just a guess, but maybe the unibody makes for a better platform for the batteries and is more compatible with other vehicles?

Jim

 

[2kwik4u]

In general.....There are more upsides to a unibody construction than downsides. Unibody is more torsionally rigid, has greater packaging flexibility, is easier to produce, and uses less weight per stiffness achieved. Downsides, like mentioned are reparability and body configuration flexibility. With battery packs and the "skateboard" chassis config, you can think of them as a hybrid system, as the skateboard provides the torsional rigidity, and "frame" of the design, and the body needs to be some "complete" when the two are married to each other. Unibodies also get back all the "dead volume" of the seams between body pieces (think the space between a bed and cab). More material and volume saved. My guess is that the take rate on the given configuration is the most popular, and the other configurations just won't be served. It took us DECADES to get to the long list of configs available now, and many have very low take rates from consumers. So while those people exist, they'll either convert over to the popular configuration, or be a lost sale to a competitor. Time will have to tell if that's a good or poor decision.

I agree, the EValanche naming is a missed opportunity.

 

[BlkGS]

EVlanche was brilliant. You should trademark it and sell it to GM.

 

[BlkGS]

The pessimist in me says "repairability doesn't matter for a BEV, they've got a short lifespan anyways".

I suspect it's largely driven by packaging, and a desire for EVs to "reset" customer expectations. They're already trying to change customer expectations about discounts, vehicles being on the lot, so adding customer choice and flexibility doesn't surprise me.

The auto industry wants to be like the cell phone industry, and ideally a goods as a service model, because it's more profitable. If they could give everyone 3 year leases instead of selling the cars, they would. Toyota is actually trying this in Europe, 3 sets of 3 year leases, where they refurbish it after each one. This way you're always coming back for a new vehicle. A revolving cycle of short term owners is better from a demand perspective and looks better on paper. And since the auto industry never learns, they haven't noticed that consumer ABSOLUTELY HATE this. They ignored that cellphone upgrade rates are plunging and they're trying everything they can come up with to try to reverse this.

 

[tabbibus]

The pessimist in me says "repairability doesn't matter for a BEV, they've got a short lifespan anyways".

I suspect it's largely driven by packaging, and a desire for EVs to "reset" customer expectations. They're already trying to change customer expectations about discounts, vehicles being on the lot, so adding customer choice and flexibility doesn't surprise me.

The auto industry wants to be like the cell phone industry, and ideally a goods as a service model, because it's more profitable. If they could give everyone 3 year leases instead of selling the cars, they would. Toyota is actually trying this in Europe, 3 sets of 3 year leases, where they refurbish it after each one. This way you're always coming back for a new vehicle. A revolving cycle of short term owners is better from a demand perspective and looks better on paper. And since the auto industry never learns, they haven't noticed that consumer ABSOLUTELY HATE this. They ignored that cellphone upgrade rates are plunging and they're trying everything they can come up with to try to reverse this.

I don't know. There will always be suckers like me who want the shiny new toy. I upgarde phones every 2 years or so because I like new features, not because I need them.

In the car world, we own a mini van and a Model S, and we plan to keep them until they stop working. But we also lease an Expedition, and will likely continue to lease our third vehicle for the foreseeable future, again, because we kinda like to just dump the lease and get our butts on a shiny new vehicle.

 

[Tyguy]

Cybertruck will be a bit different with the exoskeleton but still a close cousin to unibody, and now Tesla is using the battery's protective case as a structural support. Looking over the EV Silverado pics it looks like they may be planning something similar for their battery pack. Makes sense given the mass involved.

I'm okay with unibody/exoskeleton as long as the manufacturer accounted for the loads and stresses common with towing and offroading.

I have a 180-degree different view than BlkGS on BEV lifespan. I believe people will wonder if they're willing to install new suspension and steering systems at 200,000 miles because the drivetrain still has so much life in it but other parts are wearing out. Motors won't have low compression at 200K to 300K miles, cam/crankshaft/main seals won't be worn out, rod bearings won't be loose, cam shafts won't be worn, transmission clutch packs won't past their lifespan, emission systems won't be clogged or broken. The big question is will people be willing to replace the other stuff common with cars today that struggle to get past 200K? Window motors, UI screens, cracked leather/pleather, nasty carpets, blown shocks, cracked grommets, faded paint...

Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[BlkGS]

What the hell cars have you had with bad compression at 200k miles? Lol. Modern engines last 500k miles pretty easily if you don't run them out of oil. My first car was an explorer that I got with 225k on it, it had well over 250k when I traded it (the odometer had stopped working, lol).

I do agree that the big thing that's gonna total out cars in the future are screens. Most of them are several thousand dollars, and they keep putting more screens everywhere... Climate controls, cluster, radio, extra ones for passengers, rear view mirrors... All are one unruly child away from wrecking the car, lol.

I suspect GM is doing something akin to the spaceframes they did on Saturn's in the 90s and 00s. Honestly, Saturn was way ahead of its time. GM should have brought saturn back as an EV brand with plastic panels honestly. I had a Saturn Vue Redline, and that thing was great. Plastic panels meant all I had to worry about ever was chips, it had no dings or dents ever.

 

[2kwik4u]

Cybertruck will be a bit different with the exoskeleton but still a close cousin to unibody, and now Tesla is using the battery's protective case as a structural support. Looking over the EV Silverado pics it looks like they may be planning something similar for their battery pack. Makes sense given the mass involved.

I'm okay with unibody/exoskeleton as long as the manufacturer accounted for the loads and stresses common with towing and offroading.

I have a 180-degree different view than BlkGS on BEV lifespan. I believe people will wonder if they're willing to install new suspension and steering systems at 200,000 miles because the drivetrain still has so much life in it but other parts are wearing out. Motors won't have low compression at 200K to 300K miles, cam/crankshaft/main seals won't be worn out, rod bearings won't be loose, cam shafts won't be worn, transmission clutch packs won't past their lifespan, emission systems won't be clogged or broken. The big question is will people be willing to replace the other stuff common with cars today that struggle to get past 200K? Window motors, UI screens, cracked leather/pleather, nasty carpets, blown shocks, cracked grommets, faded paint...

Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

I agree, the skateboard philosophy puts a good deal of structure into the battery pack/chassis by itself. Adding the body to the composite structure just helps the situation.

Improved ICE manufacturing has seen that 300k miles is the new 100k miles. You see people buying used cars with 100k+ and expecting another 10years from them, where just a few decades ago 100k engine/transmission was impressive. Now it's more rule than the exception........This (among other things I'm sure) has led to the longest average vehicle ownership windows (something like 12+yrs on average now I think?) we've ever seen. Applying this same "more robust driveline" premise from EV's, and I think we could expect to see that average ownership continue to grow. Battery lifespan will put downward pressure on that ownership window, but my gut tells me it's most likely a net move positive.

Will definitely be interesting to see where this leads us.

 

[thefortunes]

FYI, "battery lifespan" is typically not an issue.

Anecdotally, I have a 10 year old Tesla with 85k miles and an 8 year old Tesla with 155k miles. Both on original batteries and going strong. My brother has a 7 year old Tesla with >350k miles on the original battery.

Here's the first article I found Googling about battery life Check Out This Official Tesla Model S/X Battery Capacity Degradation Chart

 

[2kwik4u]

FYI, "battery lifespan" is typically not an issue.

Anecdotally, I have a 10 year old Tesla with 85k miles and an 8 year old Tesla with 155k miles. Both on original batteries and going strong. My brother has a 7 year old Tesla with >350k miles on the original battery.

Here's the first article I found about battery life Check Out This Official Tesla Model S/X Battery Capacity Degradation Chart

Whats a lifespan measurement for a battery in an EV?

I know in an industrial application it's usually rated in charge/discharge cycles. Typically in the low 1-2 thousand range. No idea if that is similar for an EV or not.

Clearly 1 charge a day for 10 years is like 3.6k cycles. I doubt you charge once a day though, so perhaps closer to 2k cycles if you charge every other day?