Towing with Tesla Model X

[adrianp89]

No doubt. Love that ride. This is a corny adults only anniversary trip for my wife and I. So we are focusing more on boozing and chilling and less on rides

Epcot surely will get that done lol. Me and my wife tried around the world once and ended up wasted about a quarter of the way in, I am sure July heat didn't help.

 

[BlkGS]

We are doing Hollywood Studios Friday. Rise of the Resistance is the best ride in all of the parks IMO.

That's just, so wrong, lol. It's a good ride, but I'm a big fan of Living with the Land. And Mission space. And space mountain, lol.

 

[BlkGS]

im pickin up what youre putting down.

Rest assured, I wouldn't try to convince someone of something I didn't experience myself. I am a realist, and give it straight, even with negatives, such as no you don't want to tow, and cold weather zaps them. lol And yes, longer trips add time (though this one, Iv'e found to be negated by calmer more enjoyable travel).

the only pushiness is against the insulting retorts I get online (or at car shows) that are completely devoid of facts. Im trying to push people to look past them, Sometimes, maybe I'm triggered by that, and it makes me seem extra preachy to folks like you, who are just being an opposite realist.

So, I will try to not "soapbox" too much in the future, though I am only human.

Note: I actually did this to my brother yesterday and had to apologize. He sent me a video of a social media kid bitching about his tesla because the snow doesn't melt off the hood.. He meant it with humor and I saw red, because of the aforementioned trigger. But seriously, What a stupid thing to complain about....that isn't even an issue. I have to clean snow off my Nissan hood too...



here's the energy production by state. Iowa is 57.5% wind, my power costs .11 per Kw/h so its a worthwhile switch to me. For every day commuting, and family travel, it really cant be beaten. My savings last month were $195 vs the SUV she was driving.. For towing my boat-it doesnt work-yet.

State Electricity Generation Fuel Shares

Percent U.S. electricity generated by nuclear energy within the borders of each state.

www.nei.org

What's snow? Lol. All jokes aside, are you supposed to clean that off? The only time I really dealt with s ow on my hood I had an STI, so it was like a nice cold charge for the intercooler, lol.

 

[2kwik4u]

It's 2:15am, I can't sleep, so I thought I would hop in and stir the pot a bit.

@Peelz I checked that site you linked. KY and IN where I get my energy from are VERY heavy in coal and natural gas. It's not a great look for us, but it's where we're at. It's interesting that Iowa is so high on wind energy at over 50%. It's the highest percentage of any of the states, and I suppose that is the state playing to it's mostly flat plains area strengths.

@BlkGS Man, after reading your long post, I'm not certain what you can do other than just keep that SS for as long as possible. You don't want to make the arguably small changes to get an EV to work for you. Despite proposing hybrid powertrains as a potential solution, you shot it down pretty quickly in your other thread with the discussion of the Sequoia. Quite literally bein disappointed in the performance despite being almost exactly what you asked for. If your MPG number are right with your other vehicles, then this should be a slam dunk for you. Exceeding EPA estimates would put you in the mid-high 20's, possibly low 30's assuming you continue to have multiple percentage increases over EPA, for mileage on the Sequoia, which is going to be hard to beat this side of a diesel anything.

Here's a really interesting article that shows Toyota's alignment of mentality to be very close with yours. It's an interesting read. I want to drive one to see how the feel and work. GM had a Hybrid truck back in the early '00's that was, IMO, ahead of it's time. It didn't sell all that well due to being a high premium over the regular models, and only marginal gains. Here we are 20 years later with the same concept from a different manufacturer. I'm curious to see how it's received.

While I agree that the energy that powers the EV's come from "dirty" sources (see above comments on my region, it's really not great), you have to see the cumulative effect of future increased efficiencies on power generation. If you increase efficiency on the generation side, that will affect every single EV. While an ICE will be locked in to the upstream effects of oil production. Sure there can be improvements there, but in the end, it's a limited resource that will, at some point, run out. The sooner we remove that as an option, the better prepared we'll be (arguably in many lifetimes from now) for that inevitability.

I'm really curious about your desire for a 3-5min energy replenishment. Where did that number come from? Best I can guess at this point, it's from the idea that refueling an ICE powered vehicles gas tank takes about that long. I would love to see some data from your next trip up north on how often you stop, where you stop, and how long it takes. I think we're all guilty of underestimating the time we're off the road on trips for stops. I know for me, I guess it around 15min or so. We've been trained, or rather I have by my father for decades, to stop, pump gas, then move away from the pump to finish the stop. So we have this idea that we need to refuel an EV the same way. In reality, we could stop, plug in, do the things like stretch, use restroom, acquire snacks, walk dog, unplug, and motor off in, largely similar times. I don't think it's a compromise as much as it is a paradigm shift. If we look at something like the V3 superchargers, we're really not far off from that 20min window for a "fuel stop". If you can pickup 250mi in 20min, I think you'll be really really close to having minimal interruptions compared to your ICE journey. With that said, If you're really hopping in a car, and driving for 400mi, and only stopping for fuel. I SERIOUSLY applaud your dedication to making time on your journey. I haven't ever been able to make those kinds of legs with the wife and kids, and even if I was able to, everyone was grumpy when they woke up, or the toddler had pee'd in the carseat, or the dog was barking to get out. I want to respectfully challenge you to grab some data on your next long haul trip. I genuinely think your estimates are overstated. I challenged @thefortunes similarly months ago earlier in the thread.

A final thought on the EV push. I think you're underestimating the amount of analysis that goes into making these large, company direction sized decisions. There isn't a CEO worth his salt that would make these pushes without a complete understanding of the market ahead, and what that would look like for their company. These large tidal shifts aren't just greenwashing, they're calculated business decisions. Some of those decisions are based on issues outside out country, such as tightening pollution standards in Europe, or hugely exploding markets in China. There's also alternative markets to explore stateside that are leading to large EV pushes. GM's CEO pointed directly at that during her CES presentation before the Silverado EV reveal. They spent more time talking about the corporate partnerships in the business sector with FedEx and similar companies than they did the consumer market. GM caters significantly to the fleet buyer crowd, and those emerging technologies will filter down into the consumer market. Even the Silverado EV work truck is slated to appear before the consumer version. These large company shifts are not just at the whim of some rogue CEO, they're well defined, planned, and we're just now seeing them come to execution. Elon has fantasized the rogue CEO look, but he is by and large NOT the norm at this level.

As always, good discussion. While we've skewed significantly from the thread start, it's nice to have a place to discuss with opposing and challenging views, in a *mostly* respectful arena. We get out of hand from time to time, but I think that's more indicative of passion of position than anything else.

 

[BlkGS]

A few thoughts on yours.

My issue with the Sequoia is less the hybrid part and more the twin turbo v6. If they'd gone with a hybrid and a destroyed and sebored 5.7, or even the old 4.7 or the 4.6, I'd have been happier with it. I think my bigger issues is improper alignment of resources. Everyone wants to save some fuel, but I think instead of spending all the money on the turbo v6 they should have spent the money on making the Sequoia lighter, like what for did with f150 in 2015 that worked well. They had a v8 that was a known workhorse, and the history of turbo v6s has not been in in reliability.

My goal is to eventually replace my tbss with a Hellcat Durango. Maybe 3 or 4 years from now.

Time wise, when it's just me, I'm fast. With the little guy, we absolutely could make an EV charge work, because he has to eat and all that. But that's not the norm, he's already getting to where he's less needy of time at stops and such.

I don't trust most CEOs. Their motivation is "what will make our stock go up", which right now is going full bore on EVs which is an unproven market. In sane times, that's be a recipe for getting ousted. If BP said "we are gonna stop looking for oil and instead we are going to focus on growing biodiesel algae" imagine how their stock would react. Imagine if Purdue said "by 2030 we are going to phase out real chickens and sell only fake meat". But really, the market is reacting positively to loony ideas. And when they do this, the CEOs make more money and shareholders are happy because their stocks went up. I've been in manufacturing long enough to know that what the analysts say will be a market is usually wildly optimistic, and markets grow far smaller than they expect. And they always overestimate their ability to capture market share.

Honestly, I still say the right technology is what GM did with the volt. Modest sized battery, electric drive train, and a small range extending generator. You can plug it in like an EV without the need for a giant battery for long range, and yet you still get the efficiency benefits of an electric motor., plus the range and infrastructure benefits of ICE power.

Imagine a suburban with a small diesel generator, a battery pack that could get you 30 to 50 miles of EV range and a 20 gallon tank(maybe less). You'd be able to have a limited weight gain, reduce the cost of the battery to a lower price point, and still offer a vehicle that had plenty of flexibility and electric power. You could likely fit a battery pack that size in the engine bay with the diesel generator, meaning no need to develop an all new platform. But it doesn't generate buzz like screaming about how you're planning to end your current business in favor of a niche market, so theye not doing it.

Volvo's plug in hybrid models are a decent alternative idea, it's just unfortunate that they're not very robust.

 

[Peelz]

It's 2:15am, I can't sleep, so I thought I would hop in and stir the pot a bit.

@Peelz I checked that site you linked. KY and IN where I get my energy from are VERY heavy in coal and natural gas. It's not a great look for us, but it's where we're at. It's interesting that Iowa is so high on wind energy at over 50%. It's the highest percentage of any of the states, and I suppose that is the state playing to it's mostly flat plains area strengths.

@BlkGS Man, after reading your long post, I'm not certain what you can do other than just keep that SS for as long as possible. You don't want to make the arguably small changes to get an EV to work for you. Despite proposing hybrid powertrains as a potential solution, you shot it down pretty quickly in your other thread with the discussion of the Sequoia. Quite literally bein disappointed in the performance despite being almost exactly what you asked for. If your MPG number are right with your other vehicles, then this should be a slam dunk for you. Exceeding EPA estimates would put you in the mid-high 20's, possibly low 30's assuming you continue to have multiple percentage increases over EPA, for mileage on the Sequoia, which is going to be hard to beat this side of a diesel anything.

Here's a really interesting article that shows Toyota's alignment of mentality to be very close with yours. It's an interesting read. I want to drive one to see how the feel and work. GM had a Hybrid truck back in the early '00's that was, IMO, ahead of it's time. It didn't sell all that well due to being a high premium over the regular models, and only marginal gains. Here we are 20 years later with the same concept from a different manufacturer. I'm curious to see how it's received.

While I agree that the energy that powers the EV's come from "dirty" sources (see above comments on my region, it's really not great), you have to see the cumulative effect of future increased efficiencies on power generation. If you increase efficiency on the generation side, that will affect every single EV. While an ICE will be locked in to the upstream effects of oil production. Sure there can be improvements there, but in the end, it's a limited resource that will, at some point, run out. The sooner we remove that as an option, the better prepared we'll be (arguably in many lifetimes from now) for that inevitability.

I'm really curious about your desire for a 3-5min energy replenishment. Where did that number come from? Best I can guess at this point, it's from the idea that refueling an ICE powered vehicles gas tank takes about that long. I would love to see some data from your next trip up north on how often you stop, where you stop, and how long it takes. I think we're all guilty of underestimating the time we're off the road on trips for stops. I know for me, I guess it around 15min or so. We've been trained, or rather I have by my father for decades, to stop, pump gas, then move away from the pump to finish the stop. So we have this idea that we need to refuel an EV the same way. In reality, we could stop, plug in, do the things like stretch, use restroom, acquire snacks, walk dog, unplug, and motor off in, largely similar times. I don't think it's a compromise as much as it is a paradigm shift. If we look at something like the V3 superchargers, we're really not far off from that 20min window for a "fuel stop". If you can pickup 250mi in 20min, I think you'll be really really close to having minimal interruptions compared to your ICE journey. With that said, If you're really hopping in a car, and driving for 400mi, and only stopping for fuel. I SERIOUSLY applaud your dedication to making time on your journey. I haven't ever been able to make those kinds of legs with the wife and kids, and even if I was able to, everyone was grumpy when they woke up, or the toddler had pee'd in the carseat, or the dog was barking to get out. I want to respectfully challenge you to grab some data on your next long haul trip. I genuinely think your estimates are overstated. I challenged @thefortunes similarly months ago earlier in the thread.

A final thought on the EV push. I think you're underestimating the amount of analysis that goes into making these large, company direction sized decisions. There isn't a CEO worth his salt that would make these pushes without a complete understanding of the market ahead, and what that would look like for their company. These large tidal shifts aren't just greenwashing, they're calculated business decisions. Some of those decisions are based on issues outside out country, such as tightening pollution standards in Europe, or hugely exploding markets in China. There's also alternative markets to explore stateside that are leading to large EV pushes. GM's CEO pointed directly at that during her CES presentation before the Silverado EV reveal. They spent more time talking about the corporate partnerships in the business sector with FedEx and similar companies than they did the consumer market. GM caters significantly to the fleet buyer crowd, and those emerging technologies will filter down into the consumer market. Even the Silverado EV work truck is slated to appear before the consumer version. These large company shifts are not just at the whim of some rogue CEO, they're well defined, planned, and we're just now seeing them come to execution. Elon has fantasized the rogue CEO look, but he is by and large NOT the norm at this level.

As always, good discussion. While we've skewed significantly from the thread start, it's nice to have a place to discuss with opposing and challenging views, in a *mostly* respectful arena. We get out of hand from time to time, but I think that's more indicative of passion of position than anything else.

all good points. Saw this morning Model Y second best selling car to the Camry in Cali-with good reason....

The only Issue I see right now is in your post. Charge time vs drive time. Its a compromise I accepted, for the coolness and cheapness, that is difficult to convince people of. Hell, it took 6 yrs for me to understand and adopt from the first visit to tesla. Charging at home for commute, at a higher amperage. The original visit, the guy was giving me 120v times. I never evolved my thinking. Since owning the car, I've enjoyed learning how to manage it.

The secondary issue that's related, is the design and placement of the chargers. SOOO not convenient. For the love all things Electric build the damned chargers as pull-through already!!!! They're always Back corner of a parking lot, like in an alley...500 yards from the store that's built it... Sometimes in weird spots unnecessarily far from the interstate interchanges.

My wife wants me to buy the Rivian. Im presuming so she can steal it make me drive the Y lol. But... the non tesla charge system (here in iowa) is extra crappy. I love that truck, it makes sense, the pricing isn't "terrible" but I'm not confident in fueling it. Zero interest in "wondering" if my $80k truck can make it. tesla got this part right directly out of the gate, but it can be even better. Also disinterested in backing it into stalls if I use it to tow up to Iowa City. I'm not exactly convinced on "EV works for everyone" just that the way Tesla does it works for more people than one would think, and to consider it. As a commuter/family hauler, I have found NO fault to the Tesla system after 18,000 miles. But, the reality is, If your needs require any of these 3 things, the faults are apparent, and the EV is probably not the best choice.

-it's your only car
-you MUST tow with it regularly
-daily commute or route longer than range for battery.


Here's the charge stats in January. No supercharger trips, too cold didn't go anywhere fun really but work and soccer training. .Cool new feature tesla added to the app, just wish it would show miles.. 35ish round trips of 44 miles=1500 miles. @ 18-19mpg with the Pathfinder, Its about 80 gallons of gas taken out of the picture. the taller charge spikes are soccer days back and forth to town twice, sometimes 3x.

I had been doing this calculating on paper, the app came out pretty close to my estimates.

unrelated...app also useful now to spy on and prank your wife. Yesterday I left sentry on and waited for her to come out of work...her boss walking with her. Clicked the message button-it plays through the external speaker-and scared them. Not really the most useful tool, but it is a fun addition.

 

[Peelz]

Honestly, I still say the right technology is what GM did with the volt. Modest sized battery, electric drive train, and a small range extending generator. You can plug it in like an EV without the need for a giant battery for long range, and yet you still get the efficiency benefits of an electric motor., plus the range and infrastructure benefits of ICE power.

Imagine a suburban with a small diesel generator, a battery pack that could get you 30 to 50 miles of EV range and a 20 gallon tank(maybe less).

agree with your manufacturing points-see it every day.

The plug in hybrid is excellent. Before the tesla, i was REALLY considering the BMW i3. 80 miles on a charge, and gas engine to continue. The engine being the parallel twin from the bikes(im a BMW motorcycle guy so that was a plus to me) Almost bought one, but it was a little too "dainty" for our family of boys. IT was cool though.

My friends are still waiting for their plug in Jeep. Which I find to be an solid idea. They live in town, probably commute maybe 10-20 total miles in a day for work and family stuff. But on the weekend, you have a regular Jeep! Still looking forward to checking it out.

To re-iterate, I showed up to the Tesla demo a FULL-ON skeptic. I did not want an ev, really at all. My wife did. I agreed, because, well, she makes more than me and kinda deserves it Plus I balked at the sticker on a four runner-more then the tesla. Honestly, I'm a guy that buys a couple year old used car and keeps it for 15 yrs to get my money out of it lol But....Then We tested it for over an hour and it hooked me. I peppered the sales guy with questions, all answered confidently and favorably.

 

[thefortunes]

I challenged @thefortunes similarly months ago earlier in the thread.

Challenged me to do what?

I've posted my trips to/from Florida multiple times.

Last 4 trips to/from:
1073 miles 6 charges 2:36 charge time
1043 miles 7 charges 2:27 charge time
1031 miles 7 charges 2:25 charge time
1028 miles 6 charges 2:32 charge time
AVERAGE 1044 miles 6.5 charges 2:30 charge time

My typical speed to/from Florida is HIGH, so my efficiency (think mpg in gas car) is lower than it should be causing me to need to charge more (just like it would take more gas).

We also typically have one charge where we are stopping longer than needed (everyone needs to use the restroom, eat, walk the dog, I take a little nap, whatever) so the total charge time is also impacted unfavorably.

 

[tabbibus]

First stop

 

[adrianp89]

Great BBQ place in Valdosta and great Mexican or Hibachi/Sushi at that Ocala SC.

 

[thefortunes]

View attachment 170914
First stop

That rate is pretty slow for a 250kW supercharger (or hasn't it spooled up yet?).
What are you driving? Looks like an older S?
Sharing a charger?
Not really planning to charge to 100% I assume?

 

[Peelz]

That rate is pretty slow for a 250kW supercharger (or hasn't it spooled up yet?).
What are you driving?
Sharing a charger?
Not really planning to charge to 100% I assume?

probably still ramping. battery looks low to start.

I find once they get to about 20 you'll get the peak, til about 60 then it drops.

Ive never seen higher than 210 on any SC though.

 

[thefortunes]

probably still ramping. battery looks low to start.

I find once they get to about 20 you'll get the peak, til about 60 then it drops.

Ive never seen higher than 210 on any SC though.

I've hit over 240kW a bunch of times. Here's one:

Lol. Looks like the mi/hr was changing when I snapped the pic.

 

[Peelz]

I've hit over 240kW a bunch of times. Here's one:

Lol. Looks like the mi/hr was changing when I snapped the pic.

yep I lied to you. I actually have a screen shot of an even 2 fitty 1042 mi/hr! sorry about that... its a recent thing I'm noticing in the cold I guess, plus, we have only been charging small amounts, say, to go an extra 50 miles when the battery is already high.

 

[Peelz]

We dont supercharge often.

this was in Colorado.

 

[tabbibus]

This is a 2017 model S guys. I don't have that fancy fast charging battery y'all do.

 

[2kwik4u]

Challenged me to do what?

I've posted my trips to/from Florida multiple times.

Last 4 trips to/from:
1073 miles 6 charges 2:36 charge time
1043 miles 7 charges 2:27 charge time
1031 miles 7 charges 2:25 charge time
1028 miles 6 charges 2:32 charge time
AVERAGE 1044 miles 6.5 charges 2:30 charge time

My typical speed to/from Florida is HIGH, so my efficiency (think mpg in gas car) is lower than it should be causing me to need to charge more (just like it would take more gas).

We also typically have one charge where we are stopping longer than needed (everyone needs to use the restroom, eat, walk the dog, I take a little nap, whatever) so the total charge time is also impacted unfavorably.

Challenged you for those numbers. Which you previously posted. I didn't intend to imply you didn't respond. Was using you as an example of how to put up when challenged.

Well done all around. Sorry for the confusion there.

 

[BlkGS]

agree with your manufacturing points-see it every day.

The plug in hybrid is excellent. Before the tesla, i was REALLY considering the BMW i3. 80 miles on a charge, and gas engine to continue. The engine being the parallel twin from the bikes(im a BMW motorcycle guy so that was a plus to me) Almost bought one, but it was a little too "dainty" for our family of boys. IT was cool though.

My friends are still waiting for their plug in Jeep. Which I find to be an solid idea. They live in town, probably commute maybe 10-20 total miles in a day for work and family stuff. But on the weekend, you have a regular Jeep! Still looking forward to checking it out.

To re-iterate, I showed up to the Tesla demo a FULL-ON skeptic. I did not want an ev, really at all. My wife did. I agreed, because, well, she makes more than me and kinda deserves it Plus I balked at the sticker on a four runner-more then the tesla. Honestly, I'm a guy that buys a couple year old used car and keeps it for 15 yrs to get my money out of it lol But....Then We tested it for over an hour and it hooked me. I peppered the sales guy with questions, all answered confidently and favorably.

I'm not totally unsold on the x5 plug in hybrid. The xc90 t8 plug in hybrid would be an option if it towed more, but it only tows 5000lbs. Couple that with a turbo super hybrid 4 cylinder made by a Chinese owned company... I'd want the best warranty money could buy on it. The BMW tows 6000 lbs, gets the full rebate, and isn't that much more money. Reliability is questionable being German, and size is also a maybe too small, but I suspect it's in the right range of sizing. It's a bit more money even with the tax credit than something like a gx460, which is admittedly slower, but also tows more and will last longer and need less repairs and money into it.

And that's my rub in the end. I'm not going to save enough in fuel to ever make up the purchase price difference. So there's no benefit for me, so I'm not gonna do it. And if the government tries to legislate ICE to be more expensive, I'm gonna be pissed and vote theose a holes out. Frankly, I'm kinda pissed my tax dollars are funding EVs for rich people in the first place. I've long said the ev credit should cap at an msrp of 35 to 40k to encourage EV growth in economic commuters, not 100k toys for the rich.

I don't get my kicks as some eco crusader, and while I try to do what I can to help be good to the planet, I don't think that switching to an electric car would do as much good as forcing the developing world to meet tight emissions controls or be tariffed into oblivion. I don't think the way to solve the issue is by forcing people out of the cleanest vehicles in the world (more or less) and into electrics. Especially not in the middle of a supply chain clusterf that's worldwide, and especially not when the largest factories in the world operating are in China burning the dirtiest and cheapest coal they can find. And at the end of the day, the supply chain for EVs runs through China, whether it's materials to upgrade the grid, materials to build new power generation, renewable energy, or even just parts for EVs, it all is gonna come from the dirtiest polluter in the world, possibly with some slave labor involved, definitely with a lot of human rights abuses.

 

[tabbibus]

Charging like the common folk is no fun. Haha

 

[2kwik4u]

@BlkGS

https://www.thedrive.com/news/44248/ram-electric-pickup-will-have-a-combustion-range-extender-ceo