Towing with Tesla Model X

[2kwik4u]

Fun fact. The payment on a hypothetical 100k truck, with 25k equity from a prior vehicle (lol cuz that's what most people will have), with excellent credit on a 72 month loan is $1400 a month. If you just came.out of a lease and have no equity, or you're a serial trader with no equity, it's nearly 1900 a month.

Boss that's buying a Rivian is paying cash. Those people exist and they drive too.

Us pleeb's just have to paddle faster and dream some more right?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

107k is a whole new ball game. I mentioned in the other thread my fully-loaded Ram was 70k sticker and bought it for 50k new.. In this current market MSRP seems to be the selling point, so I would be looking at paying over double for a new truck. I just couldn't do it. 107k is in my dream car territory.

My well appointed 2020 Ram was 50K sticker and I bought it for 35K new (Sept 2020). 107K is triple the price that I paid for my truck!

I wonder how many of these 107K would actually be used to haul anything? I bet many of them will be bought by urban cowboys.

100K is mind-blowing crazy to me for a pickup. However, if I was gifted the money would have no regrets buying a 100K corvette.

Jim

 

[adrianp89]

Boss that's buying a Rivian is paying cash. Those people exist and they drive too.

Us pleeb's just have to paddle faster and dream some more right?

Seems to be a fair amount of them. Rennlist is full of them. I felt poor reading the "How did you pay for your Porsche" thread. Guys are paying 200k in cash for their 3rd or 4th vehicle.

 

[2kwik4u]

Seems to be a fair amount of them. Rennlist is full of them. I felt poor reading the "How did you pay for your Porsche" thread. Guys are paying 200k in cash for their 3rd or 4th vehicle.

Exactly.

Have a good friend that is a huge airplane nut. He loves them. Grew up in Seattle. Worked for Boeing right out of college. Life got in the way and he never got back into the industry. He got divorced a few years ago, and suddenly got some spare time. He's not overly well off, but sacrificed drinking beer with the group so he could get flying lessons. Got his license. Then sacrificed more so he could BUILD his own plane. It's a small 2 seat experimental and it took 4yrs to save up for the $30k engine. Now that it's finished and he's flying regularly he has obviously been hanging out around the hangers while working/prepping/cleaning/etc his plane. To hear some of the other guys around him talk, it's as if it's no big deal that they need a new $30k engine. "Yea, just had to get a new one put in, damn FAA regs", and that sort of thing. Fuel prices aren't even on their radar. $500/mo hanger storage is just part of it as well, no big deal.

Those are the guys that will be plunking down $107k for a new electric Denali. Us guys that are buying used $40k vehicles, or new $50k trucks aren't the market this truck is for. With that said, I bet there are some guys here that are in that segment. They have a $90k Yamaha that sits at a dock all summer at the lake house, and they use it 10-12 times a year, and it's just an accessory for the vacation home.

There are also the people in high cost of living areas. Think of the people in the SF bay area that are buying $1mil homes that are $200k homes in the midwest. These people are making $350k/yr, and at that rate, a $1,900/mo payment really isn't that absurd on a percentage basis. Another friend of mine moved from Louisville to San Jose. He tripled his income, but the only real cost of living increase for him was housing. He went out the next year and bought a brand new Jeep Grand Cherokee with cash. There are lots of people in this situation as well.

SO......I think the Denali EV is expensive and I can't afford it. I think it's probably priced about right considering the capability and target market. I'm also all for letting the high end market prove out the technology and take the initial price hit. Us guys driving the mid-trim trucks and SUV's will just have to wait longer for that tech to be within our reach financially, and that's OK.

 

[BlkGS]

Exactly.

Have a good friend that is a huge airplane nut. He loves them. Grew up in Seattle. Worked for Boeing right out of college. Life got in the way and he never got back into the industry. He got divorced a few years ago, and suddenly got some spare time. He's not overly well off, but sacrificed drinking beer with the group so he could get flying lessons. Got his license. Then sacrificed more so he could BUILD his own plane. It's a small 2 seat experimental and it took 4yrs to save up for the $30k engine. Now that it's finished and he's flying regularly he has obviously been hanging out around the hangers while working/prepping/cleaning/etc his plane. To hear some of the other guys around him talk, it's as if it's no big deal that they need a new $30k engine. "Yea, just had to get a new one put in, damn FAA regs", and that sort of thing. Fuel prices aren't even on their radar. $500/mo hanger storage is just part of it as well, no big deal.

Those are the guys that will be plunking down $107k for a new electric Denali. Us guys that are buying used $40k vehicles, or new $50k trucks aren't the market this truck is for. With that said, I bet there are some guys here that are in that segment. They have a $90k Yamaha that sits at a dock all summer at the lake house, and they use it 10-12 times a year, and it's just an accessory for the vacation home.

There are also the people in high cost of living areas. Think of the people in the SF bay area that are buying $1mil homes that are $200k homes in the midwest. These people are making $350k/yr, and at that rate, a $1,900/mo payment really isn't that absurd on a percentage basis. Another friend of mine moved from Louisville to San Jose. He tripled his income, but the only real cost of living increase for him was housing. He went out the next year and bought a brand new Jeep Grand Cherokee with cash. There are lots of people in this situation as well.

SO......I think the Denali EV is expensive and I can't afford it. I think it's probably priced about right considering the capability and target market. I'm also all for letting the high end market prove out the technology and take the initial price hit. Us guys driving the mid-trim trucks and SUV's will just have to wait longer for that tech to be within our reach financially, and that's OK.

Statistically, there are not though.

A household income of 350k puts you in the top 5% of earners. 170k puts you top 10%. There's about 130 million households, so top 10% is 13 million households. That does not remove households that make that much money but have crippling amounts of debt, whether student loan, housing, business, etc.

Fwiw, we fall into that top 10%, and would absolutely not even fathom buying a 100k vehicle. Open kimono, we could not make it work, and we have an overall modest mortgage, no debt outside of that and the wife's car. Once you factor in the costs of retirement accounts, taxes, children's college savings... it doesn't support that kinda payment.

Anecdotally, my old roommate is at that 5% mark but with major student loan debt. He alsonwould not consider a payment like that, and is less likely to pay cash for it than we are.

People paying cash for purchases like that either own their own businesses, or get stock awards as part of their compensation they have to exercise IMO. Or they just are trust fund kiddies. Never underestimate the number of trust fund kiddies there are, even well into their 40s and 50s. I went to school with several kids who were the trust fund kiddies of trust fund kiddies. Grandpa was a millionaire in the 60s, and the trust fund for dad made him a millionaire which then made his kids millionaires. Inherited wealth is truly the worst blight on our society, but those who inherit and leave wealth behind run our country so it ain't gonna change.

 

[BlkGS]

Let put into context rhe $100k market. That's Maserati, Mercedes s class, bmw 750i, amg gt53, and any Porsche model you want territory. The electric s class is in that range too, as are a few other surprising entrants.

I think it's gonna be hard to convince an s class buyer to buy a gm ev truck. It's just a different ownership experience. Buy an s class and they whisk your car away for service. Buy a Chevy and they sit you in a folding chair while you figure out how to get back to wherever from the dealership on your damn own.

 

[seanmclean]

Once you factor in the costs of retirement accounts, taxes, children's college savings... it doesn't support that kinda payment.

I think the majority of the country, even people on the higher end of middle class, forgo much of that. I know plenty of people who make decent money and have nothing saved. We do pretty well for ourselves, but try to avoid things that are overly extravagant, and all the items above are well-funded an on track to hit goals early (no kids, so thats something we dont worry about). Sitting around once this summer with a bunch of guys with flashy trucks, all bitching about lease payments and fuel. My 'old' paid off 2017 was the crappiest truck there, and that's just fine by me.

Inherited wealth is truly the worst blight on our society, but those who inherit and leave wealth behind run our country so it ain't gonna change.

I dunno, I think its a core part of the American dream. Build a better life for your kids so they don't have it as hard as you do, rinse and repeat. We won't have children, and if everything pans out well we should still have a nice nest egg leftover when we check out of this planet, so will set it up so our nieces and nephews (or their kids, at this rate), get a nice chunk to help build their lives. They won't live an extravagant life off of it, but hell, inheriting a down payment for our home in my 20s would have put us ahead of where we are by half a decade. Not the wealth you're referring to, but that's how you start.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

It will be interesting to look back in 5 to 10 years and see how many of these 100K trucks actually sold. My guess is that there are a lot of people who want the newest thing and can afford these vehicles now. What happens to demand in 2 - 5 years when they no longer are unique?

Of course if GMC follows the Chevy model with the Corvette, it will take several years to actually delivery any significant volume of vehicles.

Jim

 

[2kwik4u]

Statistically, there are not though.

A household income of 350k puts you in the top 5% of earners. 170k puts you top 10%. There's about 130 million households, so top 10% is 13 million households. That does not remove households that make that much money but have crippling amounts of debt, whether student loan, housing, business, etc.

Fwiw, we fall into that top 10%, and would absolutely not even fathom buying a 100k vehicle. Open kimono, we could not make it work, and we have an overall modest mortgage, no debt outside of that and the wife's car. Once you factor in the costs of retirement accounts, taxes, children's college savings... it doesn't support that kinda payment.

Anecdotally, my old roommate is at that 5% mark but with major student loan debt. He alsonwould not consider a payment like that, and is less likely to pay cash for it than we are.

People paying cash for purchases like that either own their own businesses, or get stock awards as part of their compensation they have to exercise IMO. Or they just are trust fund kiddies. Never underestimate the number of trust fund kiddies there are, even well into their 40s and 50s. I went to school with several kids who were the trust fund kiddies of trust fund kiddies. Grandpa was a millionaire in the 60s, and the trust fund for dad made him a millionaire which then made his kids millionaires. Inherited wealth is truly the worst blight on our society, but those who inherit and leave wealth behind run our country so it ain't gonna change.

Yeap, you're right. It's absurdly priced and absolutely stupid. GM has no idea what they're doing and have completely missed the mark. There clearly isn't enough people available to pay to play in that market.

 

[adrianp89]

Yeap, you're right. It's absurdly priced and absolutely stupid. GM has no idea what they're doing and have completely missed the mark. There clearly isn't enough people available to pay to play in that market.

I mean if 1% of the top 5% buy this truck annually - they are selling 65,000 units. I doubt they can even have that much production in the first year. More fun on that number - if they sell that in the first year, the government dishes out $488 million in tax rebates (assuming GMC hasn't hit the limit already)

 

[BlkGS]

Yeap, you're right. It's absurdly priced and absolutely stupid. GM has no idea what they're doing and have completely missed the mark. There clearly isn't enough people available to pay to play in that market.

Wouldn't be the first.time....

 

[BlkGS]

I mean if 1% of the top 5% buy this truck annually - they are selling 65,000 units. I doubt they can even have that much production in the first year. More fun on that number - if they sell that in the first year, the government dishes out $488 million in tax rebates (assuming GMC hasn't hit the limit already)

That second number absolutely disgusts me.

The thing up about the 5% buying it is there's a sliver of people between the top 10 and top 5% that are actually the market for these. You reach top 5%, you've kinda got "f u" money. You wouldn't be caught dead in something domestic unless it's a classic. That's Bentley/lambo/ferrari money. Then, you have to want a truck, but not need a large one or need to haul things. So if you're into horses or RVs or that kinda stuff you're out, boats and race cars is a maybe.

But then, you have to want the chevy/gm version vs the Dodge or Ford, AND want the electric vs a 250 diesel or you know, whatever else.

I think the market that fits the description is a lot smaller than the market for this the truck at gas truck prices. The market wants well equipped trucks that sticker in the 50s. The market share of fully loaded 70k plus trucks is a LOT smaller.

 

[2kwik4u]

That second number absolutely disgusts me.

The thing up about the 5% buying it is there's a sliver of people between the top 10 and top 5% that are actually the market for these. You reach top 5%, you've kinda got "f u" money. You wouldn't be caught dead in something domestic unless it's a classic. That's Bentley/lambo/ferrari money. Then, you have to want a truck, but not need a large one or need to haul things. So if you're into horses or RVs or that kinda stuff you're out, boats and race cars is a maybe.

But then, you have to want the chevy/gm version vs the Dodge or Ford, AND want the electric vs a 250 diesel or you know, whatever else.

I think the market that fits the description is a lot smaller than the market for this the truck at gas truck prices. The market wants well equipped trucks that sticker in the 50s. The market share of fully loaded 70k plus trucks is a LOT smaller.

Such a small market, yet they still decided it was profitable to go through the hassle of producing it. Man, what a bunch of dummies.

Almost as if they had a whole team of industry analysts that did research, and presented that data to a group of accountants that also looked it over and green lit the project. All of this without any of the shareholders knowing or otherwise having any say in it.

Guess they should've asked the random dude in FL what the market was, could've saved them a lot of hassle.

We've gone beyond the bench racing theme of this thread at this point. I'm out.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I mean if 1% of the top 5% buy this truck annually - they are selling 65,000 units. I doubt they can even have that much production in the first year. More fun on that number - if they sell that in the first year, the government dishes out $488 million in tax rebates (assuming GMC hasn't hit the limit already)

I don't believe there will be any tax rebates on these 107K trucks.

From the energy.gov website:

"Beginning January 1, 2023, the Clean Vehicle Credit provisions remove manufacturer sales caps, expand the scope of eligible vehicles to include both EVs and FCEVs, require a traction battery that has at least seven kilowatt-hours (kWh), and establish criteria for a vehicle to be considered eligible that involve sourcing requirements for critical mineral extraction, processing, and recycling and battery component manufacturing and assembly. Vehicles that meet critical mineral requirements are eligible for $3,750 tax credit, and vehicles that meet battery component requirements are eligible for a $3,750 tax credit. Vehicles meeting both the critical mineral and the battery component requirements are eligible for a total tax credit of up to $7,500.

Critical Minerals: To be eligible for the $3,750 critical minerals portion of the tax credit, the percentage of the value of the battery’s critical minerals that are extracted or processed in the United States or a U.S. free-trade agreement partner or recycled in North America, must increase according to the following schedule:

Year	Critical minerals minimum percent value requirement
2023	40%
2024	50%
2025	60%
2026	70%
2027 and later	80%

Battery Components: To be eligible for the $3,750 battery components portion of the tax credit, the percentage of the value of the battery’s components that are manufactured or assembled in North America must increase according to the following schedule:

Year	Battery components minimum percent value requirement
2023	50%
2024 and 2025	60%
2026	70%
2027	80%
2028	90%
2029 and later	100%

To be eligible for the credits under these provisions, vans, sport utility vehicles, and pickup trucks must meet the additional requirements of not having a manufacturer suggested retail price (MSRP) above $80,000, and all other vehicles may not have an MSRP above $55,000. Additionally, the eligibility of individuals for the tax credit is further limited by thresholds for modified adjusted gross income (MAGI); only individuals having a MAGI below the following thresholds are eligible for the tax credit:

Jim

 

[BlkGS]

Such a small market, yet they still decided it was profitable to go through the hassle of producing it. Man, what a bunch of dummies.

Almost as if they had a whole team of industry analysts that did research, and presented that data to a group of accountants that also looked it over and green lit the project. All of this without any of the shareholders knowing or otherwise having any say in it.

Guess they should've asked the random dude in FL what the market was, could've saved them a lot of hassle.

We've gone beyond the bench racing theme of this thread at this point. I'm out.

I think we both know the reason they did it was 1) Government forcing them to, and 2) Market valuations forcing them to.

C suite types' job number 1 is self preservation, amd job number 2 is stock price. Their boss are shareholders, and a huge portion of their salary is stock options. So when you have a company like a Tesla or rivian valued at many times more than a company like GM "because they do EVs", even if thearket isn't there, they're gonna go after it or their stock.wont live up to expectations and they'll get fired. If they do go after it, they will personally be rewarded with more valuable options. They could give a crap about if it doesn't pan out and they lose billions for the company, they're gonna make their millions, cash out their options, and take their golden parachute if they fail due to "unforeseen economic circumstances".

Then when you have governments threatening to ban sales of non EVs by a certain point in time, you're pretty much forced to throw money at it, or you exit those markets.

 

[Prodock]

Hi, everyone,

I really appreciate this extraordinarily detailed (!) thread, but noticed the lack of data about real-world experiences trailering with the Model X. I thought I would include some data from a recent trip as well as some observations, in case it's helpful to someone down the road.

TL; DR: I get about half the car's rated range.

The car:
2018 Model X 100D with 21-inch wheels. The rated range is around 270 miles. I've been a Tesla owner for a decade, own 3, and wouldn't drive an ICE (non-EV) car.

The boat:
2012 AR190 with stock trailer. The boat has two batteries, two amps, and a sub, but no other significant aftermarket weight. For this drive, the tank was about half full.

The trip:
Approximately 150-mile run from the Research Triangle area to Emerald Isle, North Carolina. This is an undulating run, ranging from about 315ft to 9ft above sea level. The trip includes time spent on major interstates, state, and backroads with speed limits ranging 35–70 mph.

The burn:
Average of 634 Wh/mi with a range of 540-760.

The takeaways:
- I preemptively supercharge because as much as I love the Tesla, it doesn't do a great job estimating range based on weight.
- I generally drive with chill mode enabled. This is a hedge on me pulling away from the line at a fast clip, as one usually does when not trailering.
- HVAC is a considerable range killer. This is well known, but the effects when trailering are significant. I estimate the increase at about 50-75 Wh/mi.
- I fuel up at the destination to keep weight lower for most of the ride.
- Some have asked about the hitch. Best I can tell, it's welded to the frame. I had some concerns re tongue weight, but the total weight is under the max for this Model X. The X's towing capacity did have some impact on my selection of the 190 over the 210.

View attachment 184362

Thanks. I live in EI and have a Model Y and a FSH 210. I don’t tow it with the MY, but would consider going to a MX or Cybertruck at some point and going down to one actual vehicle (would still have a golf cart for daily chores since we live on the island). The X would be great for most of our needs and an extra benefit if it works for the boat. Normally we just launch in EI, but maybe once a year go to Morehead City. I agree on the ICE statement…once our old Ram goes away I don’t ever see driving an ICE vehicle again. Our MY is amazing for my daily 100 mile commute as well as road trips.

 

[buckbuck]

I received an email from Ford inviting me to order my F-150 Lightning in a couple months. At this point I am not sure about ordering. The Pro model with complete towing package was about $46,000 when I sent in my reservation. Now it is about $63,000.

 

[BlkGS]

I received an email from Ford inviting me to order my F-150 Lightning in a couple months. At this point I am not sure about ordering. The Pro model with complete towing package was about $46,000 when I sent in my reservation. Now it is about $63,000.

That's a steep price increase. That probably pushes a top trim loaded truck to like 110-120k. That's a lot of money for a truck that's not great as a truck.

I was watching a video last night about how badly car sales have cratered since interest rates went up and prices have been high. CarMax and others have basically said they're going into panic mode about recession. You gotta think that the EV push and a recession with possible high interest rates isn't gonna end.well. I could see one of the domestics (let's be real, it will be GM) going belly up on the back of overexposure to EV risk. I suspect all the EV start ups other than Tesla go belly up too. Tesla might fail if there's a crypto bust, but I suspect it has enough IP and brand value to get snatched up and taken over. I think that unless they take a major hit on their crypto holdings or the China market falls off they're probably gonna survive though.

But who knows, I could be wrong, maybe people will just find a crap load of money over the next few years that are supposed to be really tough.

 

[buckbuck]

You may be on to something about sales falling. When I got my reservation I figured I was number 120,000 of the 200,000 reservations. They have only built 15,000 Lightnings so far. Maybe people are backing out?

 

[BlkGS]

You may be on to something about sales falling. When I got my reservation I figured I was number 120,000 of the 200,000 reservations. They have only built 15,000 Lightnings so far. Maybe people are backing out?

With the price increases that wouldn't surprise me..TBH I felt like a lot of the reservations for these vehicles were duplicates or potential flippers and scalpers. People said "it's only a couple hundred bucks and refundable" and didn't realize they were giving these companies huge interest free loans.

Preloading money into an account at restaurants or others is the same deal. That's why they always ask if you're paying with a prepaid balance, they want you to carry a prepaid balance so they can use that money ahead of time. It's effectively an unsecured loan to them with 0 interest.