Vtech Maptuner ECU reflash - first impressions

[swatski]

Got the R&D Skat prop today! Hope I can manage to put it on and run this weekend. The Vtech reflash along with this R&D 12/19 Skat impeller should be the winning combination!
http://www.4-tecperformance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1830

This is the impeller that seems to work best for moded VXR/VXS skis that have the same 1.8l NA engine and share the OEM impeller with all 1.8l boats.

Apparently, after a ton of research and testing, R&D couldn't get the Solas props to work well with the VXR like they do with other skis. They basically concluded the Skat was the way to go on this platform.

This is a new generation of Skats that require a special install/removal tool...



Interestingly, I was told by Jerry Gaddis not to use the billet cone/nose boot included... apparently a well know trick...

 

[dan144k]

Sounds like we may need to organize a skat trak group buy, if your testing shows improvements. I have always used solas, but willing to change for improvements.

Not using the nose cone, sounds like an interesting concept.

Thank you for all your efforts, testing, and feedback.

 

[swatski]

@dan144k Thank you, I am trying... Been going back and forth today, still some issues with the Maptuner that locked up. The Vtech guys are helping, but from Thailand. It is supposed to be a security issue/over protection built into the current version, that is going to be fixed up in the new one I am waiting for... What can I say, the pleasures of beta testing...

I will do my best to provide feedback on the Skat, this has become a bit of a preoccupation at this point...

 

[swatski]

Sounds like we may need to organize a skat trak group buy, if your testing shows improvements. I have always used solas, but willing to change for improvements.

Not using the nose cone, sounds like an interesting concept.

Thank you for all your efforts, testing, and feedback.

I managed to install the new R&D 12/19 Skat today and get out on the water to test. It is a great impeller, no doubt. It has a very refined feel to it. No vibration in "No Wake" mode, great cruise at 6000-7000 RPM. However, in Stage 1 I could only get it up to 7150-7200 RPM. Running about 41-42mph, consistent with the RPM. In other words - no prize...! ...more work ahead...

I was so hoping this was going to be a slam dunk. But, no.

The good thing is, I like the overall performance of this impeller, it has potential. There is less cavitation as compared to Solas (Concord 13/19) on hole shot. Cruising around today, going about 35mph at 6100 RPM with gauges showing fuel usage of <8 GPH (or about 4mpg), this was the closest to a nice relaxing cruise I've had in this boat. I still can not find the sweet spot in this engine, these are just such hard running units... Between their extra high compression and ultra low rotational mass... Tuning these rigs is not an easy task...

I will go out again to test the Stage 2 performance with this prop as soon as I get my Maptuner sorted out, right now I'm kind of stuck in Stage 1. But I do not expect any major developments, it is going to be back to the drawing board.

Here are the impellers I'm testing, from RIGHT to left: the OEM, Solas Concord 13/19 by Impros, and R&D Skat 12/19 Swirl. To my surprise, the OEM with original pitch is proving to be very hard to improve upon. It is so versatile in overall performance testing. I hate to say it, but it is true!



One thing about the R&D Skat is, it is sitting the closest to the vane plate. It is not a "set back", but it has the smallest gap.



What do you guys think? I will be sending the Skat somewhere to repitch, most likely Impros. Although I might bend the trailing edge myself, just for testing. I don’t think I can go any lower on the leading edge.


BTW - just for the sake of completeness, here is my aftermarket DIY filter, finally got around to do it and slapped it on to replace the OEM box/paper filter. It is a $25 (or so) pod filter/flame arrestor from a car performance store hooked up with a Home Depot gasket. Seems to work fine. This is NOT a mod of major importance, it just complements the ribbon delete.

 

[swatski]

Here is a quick update. All in Stage 1 reflash.

Last night I depitched the R&D Skat 12/19 on trailing edge by about 1-1.5 degree, about all that I was comfortable doing… Worked out really well, nice and smooth, super even on all blades. But this was hard enough, and I would not want to touch the leading edge... This prop is SO different than the OEM, very hard to bend, it took me hours to depitch it by about a degree... So much easier to work on the OEM... So, this Skat ended up with about 12/18 maybe 12/17.5 pitch.

Early this morning, I took the boat out to check… Picked up a bunch of RPM - going from 7150-7200 to 7600-7650. Wow! Top speed went up from 41-42 mph to 43-44 (I’m not too concerned about the speed at this stage). Speeds are GPS, the factory gauge is notoriously optimistic, it likes to show 48-49 when going 43-44...

But - I also got more cavitation on hole shot from dead stop, so that’s a bummer. Not nearly as bad as what I see with Solas, but I would like to have almost none… Basically, setting a goal of running about 8200 RPM with reflash and having no or almost no cavitation on hole shot. Is it realistic? I will see…


I talked to Jerry Gaddis - he agreed I need to depitch the trailing edge to get the RPM up where needed. He said he really expected that Skat to do better than it did out the box and was surprised RPM was so low. "Amazing how the skis differ from the boats". Well…

I decided to send the Skat to the Skat factory for further repitching. Talked to Glenn there this afternoon, he said to give him the numbers I get and what I want, and he will try to figure it out. No guarantees of course, and it will probably take a couple of rounds of send-outs and testing... I will keep you posted. Wouldn't be surprised if I end up with something like 14/17 or 15/16 or something crazy like that... (Keep in mind the pitch numbers mean little when comparing different impeller makes and models).


In the meantime, my OEM impeller is looking not so bad…, LOL. I depitched that thing bit too much from my last test, and it now hits the 8350 rev limiter… and runs at 8250 RPM consistently at 45-46mph… I will go back and pitch it up a bit. But, I really do not want to settle with it, at least not yet.

 

[Speedling]

I would love to see pictures of your bending setup!!!!

 

[swatski]

I would love to see pictures of your bending setup!!!!

@Speedling Here you go:




But seriously, I tried to educate myself on impeller repair and found out... it is a secret society. So, for me it looks something like that: it's just a large vice, a couple of "plates", 24" crescent and a ton of elbow grease... It's a highly iterative process which, in my case, involves more like "massaging" than "bending" at various angles. It takes forever. I broke my freaking gauge, too, but I hardly used it anyway, I put marks on blades and I think I'm more precise with a ruler and repetitions. I will take pictures tomorrow of the Skat I repitched, it actually came out pretty good. I need to take it off and send to professionals! I wouldn't even attempt to pitch the leading edge on that thing.

 

[Speedling]

Not bad actually! I had a 1" piece of plate that was about a foot long with a couple of holes in it. One side bolted down to my workbench, and the other side hung off the end of the bench. I did the threaded rod and nuts/washers and a really big crescent like you have there. I found that the oem one bent much easier than the Solas. I honestly stopped trying on the Solas when I felt all i was doing was starting to scratch that pretty surface on there. My oem impeller(s) were anywhere from 12-24 degrees on trailing edge. Could have been the previous owner abusing it as well, so I just got new ones. Made a huge difference.

 

[swatski]

Not bad actually! I had a 1" piece of plate that was about a foot long with a couple of holes in it. One side bolted down to my workbench, and the other side hung off the end of the bench. I did the threaded rod and nuts/washers and a really big crescent like you have there. I found that the oem one bent much easier than the Solas. I honestly stopped trying on the Solas when I felt all i was doing was starting to scratch that pretty surface on there. My oem impeller(s) were anywhere from 12-24 degrees on trailing edge. Could have been the previous owner abusing it as well, so I just got new ones. Made a huge difference.

@Speedling Like the idea of bolting a plate with MORE THAN ONE hole to the bench! Duh. ...why did I not think of it...?
I guess we have had similar experience bending, that is good to know. I was okay bending the Skat by about a degree on the trailing edge, but it was hard. Made in the USA.

Off to the factory with the prop now. Talked to Glenn from Skat, what a pleasant gentleman! And it is a treasure of a business, not too many like it still standing.
http://watercraftjournal.com/spin-doctors-inside-skat-trak-performance-products/


Regarding the original subject here, the goal is to get the Vtech reflash business to work in harmony with the rest of the boat… which is proving a little trickier than I originally thought. Need to give credit to these Yamaha engineers, they don't sit on their hands. But, there is room for improvement.

There are still issues with the Maptuner that are very annoying, but and I’m confident that Michel and Jonatan will deliver a fix as promised.

 

[swatski]

I recently experienced some software bugs, but all were sorted out by Vtech and all programs are working. Customer support is very good.

Not to loose Maptuner focus, the impeller issues are probably best addressed somewhere else. I will make one point here.

After switching back to the OEM impeller today, yet again, I realized this thing is a winner with the reflashed ECU... Stage 2 proved too much for the Solas Concord pitched for stock boat. I'm working on the Skat which shows promise, but for now - the OEM impeller is the one to beat.

Hope this helps.

 

[Speedling]

Hey, I just had a random thought about your impellers...
Are you sure you have a 155mm pump like the rest of us? Or did yamaha possibly give you that new 160 mm pump? This could cause cavitation issues with the new impellers! Measure your oem one first but find a very accurate way to do it because 5mm isn't much.

 

[swatski]

Hey, I just had a random thought about your impellers...
Are you sure you have a 155mm pump like the rest of us? Or did yamaha possibly give you that new 160 mm pump? This could cause cavitation issues with the new impellers! Measure your oem one first but find a very accurate way to do it because 5mm isn't much.

Yep, it is definitely 155mm. But I know what you mean, the differences are not that much.

 

[swatski]

@Speedling Here is something a little crazy, I need to run it by you (it belongs in a "wall of shame" thread, but I couldn't find one).

Long story short, when testing the Skat/OEM/Solas props lately with my new set up, some of it was done in the dark, early in the morning, etc. So... after my last re pitch of the Skat, inadvertently, the installer tool was left on the shaft and went for a ride…....

Here is a picture to illustrate what I'm talking about:


I realized what happened when I couldn't find the freaking tool next day as I was getting ready to swap the prop again... you can imagine the horror I felt... Running WITH the tool ON the shaft .

There was no vibration or anything. When I took it off, there was no damage visible on the splines – it must have settled into the prop splines pretty well. The picture above was actually taken after the fact.

But here is the crazy part: when I took the tool OFF today, I noticed a LOSS of 200-250 RPM (along with a good 1mph of speed)...

So, again, not making this up – this is how it went:
1. out of the box unmolested R&D 12/19 Skat - RPMs at 7150–7200
2. depitched trailing edge by about a degree (12/18, 12/17.5 or so), the tool (accidentally) left on the shaft - RPM went up to 7600-7650, speed went up 1-2mph
3. tool taken off – RPM went down to 7400-7450 and I lost 1mph...

Now, the OEM impellers for our boats feature a long clunky shaft, no cone. Incidentally, that shape kinda resembles the one of the Skat+tool. Call me crazy… but maybe there is an advantage to that clunky piece. I don't know...
I am not advocating running Skat props with installer tool not removed, but... you gain a mph apparently.

OEM

 

[buckbuck]

Hmmm...low cost performance mod.

 

[swatski]

Hmmm...low cost performance mod.

@buckbuck

EDIT: I removed my comment, realized you were talking about leaving the tool on the shaft, not about the reflash...

 

[swatski]

I took these short clips with my phone today, trying to show how different the boat handles in stock vs Stage 2 ECU reflash in terms of throttle control. Quality is pretty bad, but I hope you can appreciate the difference nevertheless, listening to the engine.

First clip is in stock mode. Note how much play there is in the throttle movement, especially on top of the range. Throttle cable is tight, so this is all about ECU control.

Second clip is in Stage 2 mode. Nothing changed but the ECU reflash. Note how much more precise the throttle control is.

These differences are not easy to measure or illustrate, but the feeling is not that subtle. It is also very helpful for speed control in wakeboarding ranges, which are around 20mph.


Did I mention that I love this freaking boat?

 

[SamCF]

Wow! I've been away from the forum since I put my boat up for the winter and I missed this thread. Glad to see someone else caught the modding bug. Really impressed with all the testing.

With those spare impellers, you will be able to set up one for light load cruising and one for ballast and surfing.

 

[swatski]

Wow! I've been away from the forum since I put my boat up for the winter and I missed this thread. Glad to see someone else caught the modding bug. Really impressed with all the testing.

With those spare impellers, you will be able to set up one for light load cruising and one for ballast and surfing.

@SamCF - I was wondering where have you been! Did you finish your build? I am just trying to get my 1.8l N/A to live up to its potential, and it is kind of working!

As far as tuning, I'm settled on a Stage 2 program that V-tech calls "103 st 2", at least for now. I am just waiting on a delivery of a new version of their V-tech Maptuner (hardware) and then I think I'm done! I plan on cleaning up this thread and extracting whatever useful information there may be.

The hard part is dialing-in the prop...

Honestly, I think part of the problem is - in the past I would only change the impeller if damaged. Which makes it rather difficult to get a good feel for any differences between models - the new one will always feel a whole lot better than the one you just used to find some rocks with!

Finally, I just (sucked it up and) started swapping and repitching (trailing edges only) undamaged impellers... same day, same boat etc. And that's informative!

Speaking of props for light crusing, this past weekend I tested the reconditioned Solas Concord, 13/19 custom pitched by Impros. It is a great, very smooth running prop! Compared to the OEM - no vibration, much less noise. But, it is a good 1 mph slower than the OEM, along with a loss of about 200 RPM. I would still settle for it for sure if it was not for excessive cavitation in Stage 2, which is just too much... I'm not hanging the Concord on a wall, yet, it may have its place in the lineup, but for now I will focus on the other two. If you look at the side-by-side comparison with the OEM or Skat Swirl, Concord has much shorter, far less ovelapping blades.


I spoke with Glenn Perry of Skat factory today, he was very generous with his time. He explains all things impeller really well! He offered to help with following modifications:

1. He will repitch my R&D Skat 12/19 to get it to spin at about 1,000 RPM faster than it does out of the box in the boat. We set the target of about 8300-8400 RPM. He will charge me the customary repitching charge, which is very reasonable.

Of note, if I can get the RPMs on target but too much cavitation, I will likely test Lucky 13 cone from Jerry Gaddis. He offered a discount as this will be his first L13 in a sport boat and he can not really tell me how well it is going to work (in reducing cavitation).

2. Glenn also suggested that I send him my OEM impeller, and he will do a complete overhaul. In his opinion, the long blades of the OEM impeller make it better suited for boat-duty, as compared to other props. The price he will charge will depend on whether or not he needs to weld the OD, and he may also modify the nose to make it run smoother.
I have to say, I'm kind of curious to see which impeller will win the race. (God, this is an expensive hobby...)


I will update this post whenever I get new results.

 

[swatski]

I received and tested the newer version of the Maptuner last week. It looks and works the same as the original, but it is supposed to be a lot more robust in preventing accidental tripping of the security lockup. Which is very annoying BTW.
The new box works great, zero problems syncing it and loading the software. So - I'm good to go!

Basically, I'm done with motor mods. Now need to get a base line prop.

I am still waiting for my Skat impeller to come back from the factory repitching by Glenn Perry, but in the meantime - I tested the Lucky 13 cone with Stage 2. Interesting results! - didn't do anything to help cavitation with the Solas, but works awesome with the OEM impeller! I will write it up in the Lucky 13 thread.

 

[swatski]

I have heard from the Vtech crew, apparently they are ready to launch the new platform for the Maptuner.

I'm assuming the Rotax reflash will be ready first. The interesting part is that it will be the only one that will work on boats with dual engines, per Jonatan Holmelius.
It will also be remotely upgraded with new functions and bug fixes.

Don't know about pricing, but it has got to be better than the current offer - you basically buy one reflash per engine/ECU.

Here is a picture they sent me:


I also just got my impellers back from Glenn at Skat! Can't wait to test them, but it will be a good while...
I will post more impeller details in the Lucky 13 thread.