***WARNING*** 2015-18 YAMAHA “AR” BOAT OWNERS WITH FORWARD SWEPT WAKEBOARD TOWERS

[McMark]

Thanks @MrMoose

I'll check it out.

 

[J-RAD]

I am one of those AR owners that has to lower my tower after each use in order to clear the eve of my house so it is particularly concerning to hear of this happening. Up until now I have always felt quite confident about the integrity of the design. The majority of the time I put the tower up and down on my own (which is admittedly awkward)... Fortunately I've never encountered a cross threading scenario yet... but I have no doubt it could happen.
I will add my verification to the fact that when properly fastening or un-fastening the tower bolts it should take far Moe than the 2-2.5 turns reported by @swatski, although I can't offer an official count. However, knowing however briefly and impersonally from his postings on various topics, I'm certain of the fact that he wouldn't be the type to venture out while having any doubts about the integrity of anything on his boat. @swatski, I think you need to do a side by side comparison with another AR to see what differences there might be.
It does in some way give my comfort to know that the reason behind the failure may be due to improper threading/fastening. I'm confident mine is getting fully fastened. But I would be more comfortable if there were a redundant lock to prevent such events from occurring and giving the "operator" a secondary means of knowing the tower is properly secured...
I find it disheartening to hear Yamaha or the dealer isn't stepping up a little more from a customer satisfaction standpoint to make sure a loyal customer and a vocal customer has a positive resolution to the matter.
I heard of others having problem with their seats braking on the same trip as well. So, I guess this is a thing too.

 

[Bruce]

I heard of others having problem with their seats braking on the same trip as well. So, I guess this is a thing too.

There has been damage to seats making them less useable but I believe this is the first time that a mount has failed on the crossing and certainly the failure with the lightest occupant. Normally the issue is along the lines of a bolster failing.

 

[McMark]

I just got out of my boat. Officially I get 5 full turns with no galling or cross-threading. 5 full turns doesn't put the end of the bolt all the way through the insert. The insert has about 7 threads. If you look closely on my bolt you can see how far it goes into the insert. It shows as a little darker discoloration.



Here is the insert.



I had though about a shouldered threaded insert put in from the back as a partial fix. Since this already has an insert I'm not sure it's worth it. What is worth it is replacing the hand wheel with a longer replacement. McMaster Carr has them in stainless with different available lengths. I meant to grab the diameter of the bolt so I can pick a couple up. I'll report back with a hand wheel replacement once I select.

For now I blue loctite'd mine in.

You know another source that may be able to help swatski is the NTSB and/or the NMMA. They might issue a seaworthiness directive.

 

[McMark]

McMaster hand wheels are a little short at 40mm.

 

[swatski]

I just got out of my boat. Officially I get 5 full turns with no galling or cross-threading. 5 full turns doesn't put the end of the bolt all the way through the insert. The insert has about 7 threads.

@McMark I looked at my mounts/inserts again, I used a probe to measure the void/space behind the insert - there is at least 4/8-5/8" of space in there. So, wouldn't it be better to have those bolts longer? Could easily be 1/2" longer, making any potential pull out so much less likely, not matter what.
Here are mine with those voids behind the inserts:



--

 

[scot71]

@swatski Comparing the pictures of your threads to @McMark's threads. The inserts on yours seem to have been put in much deeper than his. At least 1 to possibly 2 threads deeper. If he is getting 5 turns to be tight and your inserts are deep, you may only be getting 3 threads worth of engagement. There is no way that is enough to be safe. I would be curious to see a measurement of how deep your first thread starts compared to his.

 

[McMark]

@McMark I looked at my mounts/inserts again, I used a probe to measure the void/space behind the insert - there is at least 4/8-5/8" of space in there. So, wouldn't it be better to have those bolts longer? Could easily be 1/2" longer, making any potential pull out so much less likely, not matter what.
Here are mine with those voids behind the inserts:
View attachment 62153View attachment 62154


--

Absolutely. The bolts should go beyond the end of the threads. There's room on mine as well. On your insert picture on the right you can clearly see where about three threads are pulled right out of your insert. 100% purely a defect on XTP/Yamaha. I'm on the hunt for hand wheels with longer bolts. McMaster only had 40mm long bolts in there's. That's only 1 9/16" approximately. Probably no longer than the stock Yamaha part. I'll end up making a pair that extend well into the insert.

The arc that the tower folds combined with long hand wheel bolts would probably give a nice safety factor. When the tower swings, it wants to rotate such that the arc doesn't pull exactly straight against the hand wheel. It pulls the hand wheel outward and upward (at least mine do)(The Mrs has to hold the tower up tightly for me to get the hand wheels in). If the bolt where long enough, the upward arc would wedge the bolt in the threads and at least give you warning that the tower is loose.

 

[swatski]

I really wonder if my bolt(s) may be off, too short or my tower base/leg too broad? With only 1/2" of travel (even with the "properly" inserting ones) it wouldn't take much to make this prone to cross thread and unstable without being very noticeable...

--

 

[Mainah]

@swatski I agree that you need a side by side comparison to know if anything was made out of spec or if the spec has a wide tolerance. I still strongly believe the things I said in my only other post on this thread. I see you continue to question whether you did anything to put your family at risk and I do appreciate you laying it out there to bare for the benefit of the community. Do we all do things hastily from time to time? Sure perhaps we sometimes throw a screwdriver back in the junk draw instead of going out to the garage to put it in the proper tool box. Sure we did stupid and risky things when we were younger. We have grown and learned since then so to say that you knowingly or hastily put your family at risk I find hard to believe. When it comes to things I consciously or instinctively know need to be right; I make sure they are right. You like most on this forum just sound like that type of person. Is it possible that you cross threaded the bolt? Sure, but ask yourself if you would have done that out of haste as you obviously did not do that knowingly. If you did do it out of haste you probably would have already remembered and that kind of thing happens but I still don't think that would be you. If not knowingly or out of haste then please consider not beating yourself up.

What happened sucks. This is obviously not a good design and hopefully the design is changed. I have been rather hard on Yamaha in my last couple of posts. Frankly they do deserve most of it. Little things like the voltage issue happen and companies make decisions not to fix things like that due to cost/risk/benefit which is normal for any company. What truly bugs me is that boats should not leak (I have had a slow leak since day one and have finally done the work to figure out it is not just one leak but three and I will be doing a separate thread on that). Boat hardware also should not pose an undue risk to its occupants. In cases where a design flaw, part defect, or poor quality control can pose undue risk to life and limb companies need to do the right thing before it ever leaves the factory. If not caught there (and it should be) then they need to do the right thing after the fact. In the current crop of boats there are too many design and quality control issues to call it normal or acceptable. It is this last point that brings me to once again to why I decided to post again in this thread. What do you find more likely? That you knowingly or hastily put your family at risk or that there are design and quality control issues that played a bigger/vast majority role in what occurred.

 

[FloJet]

Wow Bad to hear Yamaha will not take any responsibility for this. Not good at all. @swatski like they always say "Squeaky wheels get the oil"

 

[GMAN2015]

Yes - you can only go that far. Look at the last video clip and the pics - the bolt only travels 2/8-3/8" inside the spring (inside the tower leg).

The Yamaha technical rep examined those bolts and threads and opined that one mount (strbd) was cross threaded. Nothing was said about the thread or bolt being too short. So, IDK.

--

That's what I was thinking happened when I posted earlier in this thread. A ton of force on just a few threads because a bolt is bottoming out early due to being too short would definitely cause cross threading on its own as it stretched the insert threads. Need to see what the bolt specs are against what owners actually have. I bet there are discrepancies.....and if so an obvious/dangerous quality control issue.

 

[Mainah]

Attention! LS, E, and X owners please check your tower base mounting bolts. I will post a different thread as this issue is not as severe as the AR but figured this cross post would not hurt. I decided it would be prudent for me to check the the 3 tower base mounting bolts on each side while I have the boat home on the trailer. Using a 3/4 deep well 3/8 drive socket, 18in long 3/8 drive extension, and a 3/8 inch drive 90 tooth ratchet I was able to get a half turn on each nut. This is using only one hand and with no significant amount of torque. I did not want to over tighten so I did not reef on them. Probably just settling but I figured worth a thread as something for everyone to check. I also checked my cables to ensure they still had their stop nuts and they were tight.

 

[scot71]

@swatski. I came to my conclusion by looking at the tangs in which are used to put in these inserts. Yours seem to be much deeper than @McMark's. Which would definitely relate to your problem.

 

[McMark]

For something critical that doesn't pass through the backside I would want at least twice the diameter in bolt engagement. I.e. 10mm diameter would require 20mm of engagement. -McMark

Hope you can read the picture. Jetboaters is blocked at work. It's general good bolting practices but slightly conflicting of each other.

 

[Neutron]

But if you look in @swatski videos with only the bolt in hand and no tower in the way he only got 2.5 turns till it bound up.
You have to start there. The threads are either already messed up or wrong pitch insert

 

[Emilio22]

Taking her in for an unrelated issued but realized the marina where I keep her lowers the tower when they put her away. Will have to be very vigilant on those knobs. I honestly have no idea how @swatski got away without more serious injuries. That tower goes way low. Don't know who your God is if any but definitely should look at lighting a few good fortune candles. ;-)

 

[scot71]

But if you look in @swatski videos with only the bolt in hand and no tower in the way he only got 2.5 turns till it bound up.
You have to start there. The threads are either already messed up or wrong pitch insert

I think there may be more than one problem going on here ( possible cross threading), but to me there obviously was not enough thread engagement to be safe. Those inserts were obviously threaded in to far, in my opinion.

 

[McMark]

One thing everyone should be checking. Push up on your tower when you think your hand wheels are tight. There should be no movement. If the tower pivots upward a little after you've tightened, your hand wheels could be cross threaded and feel tight but not be as engaged as they could be. Watch each side individually for movement when pushing up.

 

[swatski]

View attachment 62183

For something critical that doesn't pass through the backside I would want at least twice the diameter in bolt engagement. I.e. 10mm diameter would require 20mm of engagement. -McMark

Hope you can read the picture. Jetboaters is blocked at work. It's general good bolting practices but slightly conflicting of each other.

Wow.
If I'm not mistaken, this goes in the face of Yamaha narrative.

--