***WARNING*** 2015-18 YAMAHA “AR” BOAT OWNERS WITH FORWARD SWEPT WAKEBOARD TOWERS

[robert843]

Two to two and half turns seems short. I have had to lower my tower several times from where it is kept in dry storage and I'm pretty sure it was more turns then that but I would have to double check. I wonder if that's where it is cross threaded and stopping the bolt from going any further. I never checked is the seat base plastic or metal? I find it hard to think metal would break like that.

 

[Neutron]

Yes - you can only go that far. Look at the last video clip and the pics - the bolt only travels 2/8-3/8" inside the spring (inside the tower leg).

The Yamaha technical rep examined those bolts and threads and opined that one mount (strbd) was cross threaded. Nothing was said about the thread or bolt being too short. So, IDK.

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I just went back out and took these two videos for you as you can see yours is way off

 

[Murf'n'surf]

May I suggest that if anyone has this issue and firmly believes it is a safety hazard...... click the link below:

http://uscgboating.org/php-contact-form/consumer-safety-defect-report.php

 

[haknslash]

Whoa I get way more than 2 1/2 turns. Something is for sure wrong with that! Mine is just like @Neutron with several turns until it's tight.

 

[swatski]

I just went back out and took these two videos for you as you can see yours is way off

Yes - this looks different. I wonder if your bolts go through the insert thread and into the void - deeper inside the mount, past where the thread insert ends? I wonder what stops the bolt? Is the internal thread tapered?

I wish I measured the travel and the number of turns my bolts go in before the collapse, but it never occurred to me to do that. I never lowered it until I installed the speakers a few weeks back, and then I just put it back up, screwed those back in until tight and did not think of it much.

Now I wonder if mine were just too shallow, or was I already running with cross threaded bolts (that were not going in far enough)?

What are the factory specs?????????

My bolts were never able to go in more that 2/8-3/8" I think, don't know how many full turns that is but less that what I see in your video.

With all that wobbling and pushing the spring to catch the thread - this is just ASKING to be cross threaded, isn't it? I don't understand this design AT ALL.


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[swatski]

Whoa I get way more than 2 1/2 turns. Something is for sure wrong with that! Mine is just like @Neutron with several turns until it's tight.

So, @haknslash @robert843 @Neutron How deep is the thread? If you put the tower down and just screw the bolts into the mounts - how far do they go in?

I think mine must have been cross threaded all along or I cross threaded them the one time I had the tower down.

Sorry, but this is just f@cking crazy. Especially if you are actually raising the tower and trying to catch that first thread - pushing on the spring - this is just asking for trouble. I think.

At this point I will have a mechanical survey done of this whole gizmo. I can't find any specs anywhere, Yamaha is totally unhelpful, and I don't know if I can trust what they are telling me.

I also will need to see their reports and diagnostics on my boat, one way or another, which they claim are confidential (sic). I have a feeling those will be interesting.

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[haknslash]

My boat is in the garage now and I will pull it out tomorrow to count my turns. It was hard to measure the length of threaded insert at the last thread with my calipers but looks at least 1/2". About 7 threads showing too.

 

[swatski]

My boat is in the garage now and I will pull it out tomorrow to count my turns. It was hard to measure the length of threaded insert at the last thread with my calipers but looks at least 1/2". About 7 threads showing too.

View attachment 62104

That's about the same, except mine look beat up, especially the strbd side, pic below. But with the 6-7 threads I think my bolts travel about 3/8" max.

But even 1/2" seems stupid short for this kind of application!!!!!!



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[haknslash]

Agree it's pretty stupid. No idea why they didn't just use a similar design as the X and Limited models. I guess I will end up drilling and using a cross pin as a secondary lock. Really sucks we are always the ones having to fix these shortcomings instead of Yamaha just putting out a better product especially for the money and competitors.

 

[robert843]

So, @haknslash @robert843 @Neutron How deep is the thread? If you put the tower down and just screw the bolts into the mounts - how far do they go in?



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My bolts are attached to the tower with the little spring thing so not sure I could even get it out to try that.

 

[swatski]

My bolts are attached to the tower with the little spring thing so not sure I could even get it out to try that.

Yes, there is a nut inside the leg that holds the bolt in, which is another funky aspect of the lock. Frankly, if I were you, I wouldn't mess with it at this point. Better not touch it (if it works for now)!
Thank you, @robert843, appreciate your thoughts here very much

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[swatski]

So, after today's "discovery" of the threaded steel inserts in the aluminum mounts I have been scratching my head about the origin of those aluminum broken-thread-like looking debris that littered my stern AFTER the accident/tower collapse.

And then - I had my Eureka moment! It must have been debris trapped inside the tower leg after my speaker pods were mounted up - and two holes were drilled to run the wire! (after the tower went down that debris spilled out through the opening at the bottom of the tower legs)

At least that is the most plausible explanation I can come up with right now.

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[robert843]

Yes, there is a nut inside the leg that holds the bolt in, which is another funky aspect of the lock. Frankly, if I were you, I wouldn't mess with it at this point. Better not touch it (if it works for now)!
Thank you, @robert843, appreciate your thoughts here very much

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I would be willing to bet though it wouldn't stop till it was all the way through and the handle hit the base. When I tighten it the bolt never feels like it hits an end point it just becomes tight against the tower. I do not think there are any threads in the tower just the base so the amount of turns even with out the tower should be the same as we are all threading at the same point so it shouldn't matter where the handle starts I hope that makes sense.

 

[McMark]

Wow. I get a lot more engagement with mine. If you only get a a couple turns of engagement and your knobs loosened a little on the crossing I can totally see why they pulled. Proper engagement should be about a full thread beyond the backside of that insert when tight and with the way they loosen , 3 or 4 threads beyond would be better.

 

[MrMoose]

The only time I have ever experienced this situation @swatski is when I accidentally used a standard bolt with a metric nut. Maybe you have a mismatch.

 

[swatski]

Wow. I get a lot more engagement with mine. If you only get a a couple turns of engagement and your knobs loosened a little on the crossing I can totally see why they pulled. Proper engagement should be about a full thread beyond the backside of that insert when tight and with the way they loosen , 3 or 4 threads beyond would be better.

Again, thank you for providing feedback. This has been a difficult situation for me, and I really appreciate the responses.

Here is what I struggle with and I need to understand:

I put my kids, my family, and myself in danger - how did that happen?

1. Was I at fault - by being negligent (and operating the boat not following the Yamaha manual/ SOPs)?
   
2. Is the AR tower locking mechanism at fault (due to defects or substandard design)?

Here is what I think I know:

The Yamaha rep who traveled to the dealership to perform the diagnostics reported two findings:

1. No evidence of manufacturing defect(s)
   
2. Evidence of "a partial cross threading" of one of the bolts (strbd)

My own examination shows the following:

1. The mounts allow the bolts to thread in ONLY about 2-3 turns (as shown in the video clips above)
2. Given @McMark and others report the bolts going beyond the backside of the thread (and mine don't) - this indicates mine are damaged; this could have occurred before or after the accident
   
3. My bolt inserted inside the tower leg spring travels only less than 1/2" in and out (as shown in the video clip above and see the pic below)

Here is what I would like to know, but don't know:

1. Are my bolts within the specs?
   
2. Too short (short-ish) to start with?
   
3. Wrong thread?
   
4. Did Yamaha expert check if the bolts' are up to spec? (I can not find any specs for those in the manuals)
5. What exactly are the Yamaha findings (in their technical report)?
   
6. Has (one or both) of my bolt(s) been cross threaded, unbeknown to me, already prior to the accident?

Here is what I would like to think:

1. I am POSITIVE the last time (and the only time) that tower was put up by me (with adult assistance) the bolts were IN and TIGHT, all the way.
2. I have a habit of checking on those, consistent with my compulsive nature and impeccable track record of maintenance on that boat.

Taken together, the most plausible scenario is?

IDK


But, let's just think about it for a moment...
If @McMark is correct and the total bolt engagement inside that insert is approximately 1/2"

Proper engagement should be about a full thread beyond the backside of that insert when tight and with the way they loosen , 3 or 4 threads beyond would be better.

than a "properly" engaged bolt would ONLY have approximately one full turn of a "safety buffer"...
...In a tower that weights what? 100+ lbs? and sits on top of a light weight hull prone to flex?

So, is that a safe design?
IDK, certainly NOT foolproof. And considering the weight and the position of the tower over the cockpit there should to be a backup safety!

There should be warnings and detailed instructions on how to operate this locking mechanism.

Importantly:
If according to the Yamaha rep cross threading is an "operator error", then the operator needs to know of this critical error and Yamaha needs to provide a way for the operator to identify the cross threading (know when it occurs) and how to correct it (how to diagnose and correct).

Keep in mind, the "operator" is not necessarily the owner. The "operator" is whoever tightens the knob, whether this is done at the factory or when the salesperson is demonstrating the wonderful features of the tower, or when its at the shop for repair, or when the sound system, wakeboard racks etc. are upgraded by a licensed dealer or after market contractor.



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[0627Devildog]

Sure. Basically, the bolts pull out of the aluminum base; see broken internal/female thread debris littering the stern:
View attachment 61845
View attachment 61846
View attachment 61847
View attachment 61848
View attachment 61852
View attachment 61851

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Guarantee they start integrating a cross pin into these moving forward. I highly recommend ANYONE with one of these towers installs their own cross pins as a safety precaution.

It is BEYOND ridiculous how #Yamaha is handing this. . . . . . .

 

[jcyamahariders wife]

Importantly:
If according to the Yamaha rep cross threading is an "operator error", than the operator needs to know of this critical error and Yamaha needs to provide a way for the operator to identify the cross threading (know when it occurs) and how correct it (how to diagnose and correct).

Keep in mind, the "operator" is not necessarily the owner. The "operator" is whoever tightens the knob, whether this is done at the factory or when the salesperson is demonstrating the wonderful features of the tower, or when its at the shop for repair, or when the sound system, wakeboard racks etc. are upgraded by a licensed dealer or after market contractor.



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Well said @swatski and so true !

 

[McMark]

My thoughts: The tower/hand knob assembly is defective and was either missed or pushed through XTP quality control.

The tower is difficult at best to raise and lower allowing the hand knob the potential for cross threading or some other ill fitment.

The insert should have been a nylok style with at least 3 threads protruding from the backside.

There should have been a cross pin for redundancy.

The hand knob can be checked for proper thread class using thread wires or possiblya fit gauge on the threads that have not engaged the insert. The insert is probably too damaged to check.

I bought my first Yamaha in 1974. A new DT125. I've had a ton of yamaha toys since. I'm just one guy but I'll be buying something else at some point. Not even a yamaha outboard.

They seriously need to step up and fix. If my wife's seat broke it would not end well. She's 62 and would probably be seriously hurt. Her seats creaks pretty badly so I'll be checking it out.

 

[MrMoose]

My thoughts: The tower/hand knob assembly is defective and was either missed or pushed through XTP quality control.

The tower is difficult at best to raise and lower allowing the hand knob the potential for cross threading or some other ill fitment.

The insert should have been a nylok style with at least 3 threads protruding from the backside.

There should have been a cross pin for redundancy.

The hand knob can be checked for proper thread class using thread wires or possiblya fit gauge on the threads that have not engaged the insert. The insert is probably too damaged to check.

I bought my first Yamaha in 1974. A new DT125. I've had a ton of yamaha toys since. I'm just one guy but I'll be buying something else at some point. Not even a yamaha outboard.

They seriously need to step up and fix. If my wife's seat broke it would not end well. She's 62 and would probably be seriously hurt. Her seats creaks pretty badly so I'll be checking it out.

@McMark my seats creaked and I had the bases replaced. The creak came from where the pole attaches to the base. It was replaced under warranty.