***WARNING*** 2015-18 YAMAHA “AR” BOAT OWNERS WITH FORWARD SWEPT WAKEBOARD TOWERS

[swatski]

@swatski I agree that you need a side by side comparison to know if anything was made out of spec or if the spec has a wide tolerance. I still strongly believe the things I said in my only other post on this thread. I see you continue to question whether you did anything to put your family at risk and I do appreciate you laying it out there to bare for the benefit of the community. Do we all do things hastily from time to time? Sure perhaps we sometimes throw a screwdriver back in the junk draw instead of going out to the garage to put it in the proper tool box. Sure we did stupid and risky things when we were younger. We have grown and learned since then so to say that you knowingly or hastily put your family at risk I find hard to believe. When it comes to things I consciously or instinctively know need to be right; I make sure they are right. You like most on this forum just sound like that type of person. Is it possible that you cross threaded the bolt? Sure, but ask yourself if you would have done that out of haste as you obviously did not do that knowingly. If you did do it out of haste you probably would have already remembered and that kind of thing happens but I still don't think that would be you. If not knowingly or out of haste then please consider not beating yourself up.

What happened sucks. This is obviously not a good design and hopefully the design is changed. I have been rather hard on Yamaha in my last couple of posts. Frankly they do deserve most of it. Little things like the voltage issue happen and companies make decisions not to fix things like that due to cost/risk/benefit which is normal for any company. What truly bugs me is that boats should not leak (I have had a slow leak since day one and have finally done the work to figure out it is not just one leak but three and I will be doing a separate thread on that). Boat hardware also should not pose an undue risk to its occupants. In cases where a design flaw, part defect, or poor quality control can pose undue risk to life and limb companies need to do the right thing before it ever leaves the factory. If not caught there (and it should be) then they need to do the right thing after the fact. In the current crop of boats there are too many design and quality control issues to call it normal or acceptable. It is this last point that brings me to once again to why I decided to post again in this thread. What do you find more likely? That you knowingly or hastily put your family at risk or that there are design and quality control issues that played a bigger/vast majority role in what occurred.

Thanks, @Mainah - what can I say? When you right, you right!

I am going to stop whining, what's been driving me crazy is that I literally talked my wife out of an X model (which turned out to have a much more robust tower!)
When the wife says: "honey, get what you want and just make sure it has everything we need" - and you bringing home a lemon... - one should be entitled to do a little bit of whining, right? LOL.

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[djetok]

Thanks, @Mainah - what can I say? When you right, you right!

I am going to stop whining, what's been driving me crazy is that I literally talked my wife out of an X model (which turned out to have a much more robust tower!)
When the wife says: "honey, get what you want and just make sure it has everything we need" - and you bringing home a lemon... - one should be entitled to do a little bit of whining, right? LOL.

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I don't see you as whining @swatski . You have been informative and way more rational than I would be. I would be pissed!!!!

 

[Mainah]

Thanks, @Mainah - what can I say? When you right, you right!

I am going to stop whining, what's been driving me crazy is that I literally talked my wife out of an X model (which turned out to have a much more robust tower!)
When the wife says: "honey, get what you want and just make sure it has everything we need" - and you bringing home a lemon... - one should be entitled to do a little bit of whining, right? LOL.

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Certainly not whining. You appear to be as open and honest as they come. I was just responding to a geneal feeling that I got from your posts that you are being hard on yourself. I would be too. My intent was to offer some some encouraging reinforcement.

 

[J-RAD]

@swatski I agree that you've been extremely rational about the whole thing by not discounting the possibly of human error and opening the door to self-degradation... but I don't think you deserve to beat yourself up about it.

I think this whole conversation could prove to benefit you. If you can prove a defect with your tower in the way the threaded insert is installed or argue the tower was cross-threaded at purchase, preventing proper use of your tower, then you may have room to argue with Yamaha or your dealer.

When I purchased my boat I ignorantly assumed it had the same tower as the LS and X models...

I still don't regret my AR purchase... so long as my tower doesn't become deadly... but you may rightly have a reason to declare lemon status.

 

[n1111z]

Attention! LS, E, and X owners please check your tower base mounting bolts. I will post a different thread as this issue is not as severe as the AR but figured this cross post would not hurt. I decided it would be prudent for me to check the the 3 tower base mounting bolts on each side while I have the boat home on the trailer. Using a 3/4 deep well 3/8 drive socket, 18in long 3/8 drive extension, and a 3/8 inch drive 90 tooth ratchet I was able to get a half turn on each nut. This is using only one hand and with no significant amount of torque. I did not want to over tighten so I did not reef on them. Probably just settling but I figured worth a thread as something for everyone to check. I also checked my cables to ensure they still had their stop nuts and they were tight.

Link to the Post?

 

[swatski]

Link to the Post?

https://jetboaters.net/threads/warning-all-tower-owners-please-check-your-base-mounting-bolts.14898/

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[Lake_Spray]

Does it make anyone else a little nervous that the Extreme Tower Products (XTP) website doesn't work? I know all the chatter here has focused on making this a Yamaha thing, which I understand. Guess I was surprised when I went to look at the URL printed right on the "Don't remove this or you void the warranty" sticker on my tower and it didn't work.

 

[Neutron]

Does it make anyone else a little nervous that the Extreme Tower Products (XTP) website doesn't work? I know all the chatter here has focused on making this a Yamaha thing, which I understand. Guess I was surprised when I went to look at the URL printed right on the "Don't remove this or you void the warranty" sticker on my tower and it didn't work.

I hope that is purely coincidence.
But a little alarming

 

[swatski]

I hope that is purely coincidence.
But a little alarming

I agree. Wonder if anyone has been in contact with them lately?
I have not. I got my tower racks from them earlier this year but that was back in Feb or so.

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[Britboater]

Just caught up with everything, Bimini etc and reading your dealings with Yamaha @swatski I'm gob smacked !!

So glad you and your family are ok, my thoughts straight away are nothing to do with you but Yamaha, they are totally to blame supplying an inferior product which is unfit for purpose. You mention the engineer said you'd cross threaded the fixing, to me the thread looks clean on both the bolt and insert, am I right or are the photos deceiving? On a second note, your insert is definitely more recessed obviously meaning the bolt cannot screw all the way in, meaning the tower is not secure, meaning the manufacture is at fault. If I recall my bolt only screws in a few turns but I'm not with my boat atm bit I'll be defiantly checking when I return.

I read you almost blaming yourself, WHAT!!, if anybody's diligent its you, Yamaha stick labels everywhere for single cell boat owners, so this is definitely an oversight on Yamaha's behalf, stick to your guns and screw the buggers, this is totally unacceptable from a company of their reputation.

On another note, what a trip you guys had, certainly something to keep the forum alight, glad all turned out kinda ok.

 

[jcyamahariders wife]

Thanks, @Mainah - what can I say? When you right, you right!

I am going to stop whining, what's been driving me crazy is that I literally talked my wife out of an X model (which turned out to have a much more robust tower!)
When the wife says: "honey, get what you want and just make sure it has everything we need" - and you bringing home a lemon... - one should be entitled to do a little bit of whining, right? LOL.

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Jerry and I had that discussion and it was either buy 2014 and older or go with the X because of the tower issue. So now that we decided on the X model if we had anything like that happen you better believe I would be raising one hell of a storm if my expensive boat fails on me in any way !

 

[swatski]

Jerry and I had that discussion and it was either buy 2014 and older or go with the X because of the tower issue.

Smart people.

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[MrMoose]

Jerry and I had that discussion and it was either buy 2014 and older or go with the X because of the tower issue. So now that we decided on the X model if we had anything like that happen you better believe I would be raising one hell of a storm if my expensive boat fails on me in any way !

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and as I've stated before, Yamaha made a poor decision in Swatski's case, BUT, it's important to keep things in perspective here.
Yamaha boats are sold to customers with lots of defects, and although most (definitely not all) are fixed under warranty, I think that it's unacceptable to have the customer do the job that belongs to Yamaha's Quality Control department, while losing access to their boat while it's being repaired by the dealer. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, this is par for the course in the jet boat industry.
In addition to this, maybe @Andy S would like to add a comment since he has owned a Yamaha and currently owns a highly-regarded Cobalt. He (Cobalt) and @1948Isaac ('15 AR240) took their boats to the Exumas; I'm sure that most of you have seen the video on YouTube. They both had issues with their boats, but @1948Isaac did not report a problem with his tower.
Thanks to this forum many will have knowledge of Swatski's situation, which is critical, and in my opinion, all that is necessary to have a safe AR tower. It's just another thing to add to the list of things to check when you buy your Yamaha boat, and something to keep an eye on when you use your boat.
Check that the AR tower bolts screw in and out properly (i.e. not 2.5 turns) and that the tower is tightly screwed down when you take delivery of your new boat. If not, then don't accept delivery of the boat and add it to the list of things that the dealer has to fix before you take delivery.

When I took delivery of my '15 AR, I recall tightening by bolts by an additional 1/4-1/2 turn, . I've only lowered my tower once just to make sure that there were no defects that I needed to get fixed before my warranty expired. Since then, my bolts have been tight.

In addition to this, I believe that the other issues that Swatski had during his crossing have equal probability of occurring on any of the 24 foot models. Members on this forum have reported that their anchor locker latch needed adjustment, and in addition to this it has been reported that it wasn't a case of adjustment, but that the plastic ball on the elastic cord that holds the ladder in a compressed position was positioned on top of the ladder which stopped the anchor hatch from fully closing; repositioning the ball so that it did not interfere with the hatch fixed the problem. I've even had this happen, but noticed that the hatch sounded different when it slammed shut, so I opened it and repositioned the ball.
The broken seat has the same hardware as non-AR models; probably a defective casting, or the shaft was not fully assembled into the female slot of the casting thus causing excessive localized pressure and cracking the casting (which could be attributed as another assembly defect by Yamaha).

In my opinion, Swatski's experience should not be your reason to not purchase an AR model. If anything, it should be your reason to not purchase a Yamaha.
It would be nice if JD Powers did the same kind of initial quality ranking in the marine industry that they do in the auto industry.

 

[dnicholas47]

I thought somebody might find this interesting since there has been a lot of talk about warranty claims on this thread. I just bought a '15 AR240 a couple of weeks ago. I had to take it to a dealer to have an inspection done so that I could transfer the warranty over. Admittedly this may be on the dealer and not Yamaha, but for all of the things checked out on their list, the tower isn't even referenced. Food for thought I guess.

 

[swatski]

Thanks to this forum many will have knowledge of Swatski's situation, which is critical, and in my opinion, all that is necessary to have a safe AR tower. It's just another thing to add to the list of things to check when you buy your Yamaha boat, and something to keep an eye on when you use your boat.

Very well said.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm kind of in and out of it - reading and responding - but NO, I can not completely agree. (See below)

However:

If cross threading is indeed the critical error here, Yamaha still needs to provide a way for the operator to identify when it occurs (how to diagnose it), and how to correct it. As I said before, the "operator" is not necessarily the owner, it is whoever tightens the knob. Does that give comfort to anyone considering a new purchase?



My new boat currently sits in my driveway and I am pretty clueless as to the best way to proceed (fix my tower?) - find myself at the mercy of this forum!

For all new buyers - assuming Yamaha risk management team gets their heads out of their a$$es - Yamaha WILL issue a mod and/or a directive (w/warnings) to let owners know what to do to keep those AR towers safe. But until then I would not want to have anything to do with that tower.


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[Andy S]

I have been watching this thread closely but have been staying out of the conversation until @MrMoose pulled me in, which I don't mind.

Since owning my Cobalt I have had some warranty issues that needed addressing and my experience with my dealer (Captain's Choice Marine), corporate Cobalt, and corporate Volvo-Penta has been nothing be extremely fair and respectful.

As @MrMoose mentioned, in 2016 I took my new Cobalt (only had 15 hours on it) to Staniel Cay, Exuma, Bahamas and after the trip had some warranty issues that needed addressing. Not one of these issues were ever questioned, they fixed them in a timely manner and at no cost to me.

Issues

1. With drivers seat bolster in the upright position, the bottom seat support leading edge was sharp and cut the back of my calf.
   1. The fix was to install a piece of curved metal to pre
2. Some of the blocking and hardware that helps hold the center part of the deck to the hull.
3. Second boat us on the lake after getting back from Exuma, the fuel pump overheated and failed. The root cause of this was that I ran a ground in Exuma and sucked sand into the cooling system. Yes the fuel pump is water cooled by the raw water intake and I'm not sure why it isn't cooled off the radiator like the motor.
   1. The dealer with a lot of help from Volvo-Penta spent a lot of time trying to get this fixed. Turned out the engine computer didn't like the new fuel pumps so the engine computer also had to be replaced.
4. Mounting screws for the wind shield frame, head compartment panels, and rub rail came loose that I fixed myself.

Right after I got back from Exuma, the Cobalt customer purchase survive was at the house, so I filled it out and listed all the issues I had with the boat. I received a call from corporate Cobalt wanting more details about the deck block issue and the driver seat issue. The lady I talked to was extremely concerned about both issues. Before she knew my boat was in the shop she told me she was going to coordinate with the dealer to come get my boat so the repairs can be made, this is when I informed her that the boat was already at the dealer getting repaired. I do know from the dealer that Cobalt contacted the dealer to find out about the repairs and track the progress. About 2 weeks after talking with corporate Cobalt a box arrived at my house from Neodesha, KS (where Cobalt's are built) and inside was nothing but a Cobalt beach towel which list for $42.00, I assumed it was a token for the issued I had with my boat.

This year, 2017, the only warranty issue I had on my boat was thanks to gorilla man @robert843, he broke the lock pin on swim deck. After getting back home I called my dealer with the issue, they ordered a replacement part and within a week it was there, no cost to me.

Cobalt has always had a reputation as a great boat and that they provide great customer service and from my experiences I can definitely vouch for those claims. That being said a company doesn't have to be at the top of class in their product to provide fair and reasonable customer service.

FYI - the dealer that I purchased my Cobalt from also sells Yamaha's so I wonder how the service might be different between the brands.

As for the tower on my Cobalt, the locking bolt is vertical not horizontal like on the AR's and seems very robust. So far I have not experienced it coming loose and due to this thread I now check it all the time.

 

[Mainah]

FYI - the dealer that I purchased my Cobalt from also sells Yamaha's so I wonder how the service might be different between the brands.

I have had my boat and trailer in for warranty service at the same dealer as @AndyS. The dealer is pretty good and I think that makes a difference in overall satisfaction. I did ask the service manager how many issues he sees on Yamahas compared to Cobalts. He was careful not to talk down the Yamahas and did mention a couple of common issues he was seeing with the Cobalts with the Volvo engine and that Cobalt was very responsive. The fact that someone from Cobalt reached out to @Andy S regarding his survey says a lot IMO.

 

[swatski]

Thanks to this forum many will have knowledge of Swatski's situation, which is critical, and in my opinion, all that is necessary to have a safe AR tower. It's just another thing to add to the list of things to check when you buy your Yamaha boat, and something to keep an eye on when you use your boat.
Check that the AR tower bolts screw in and out properly (i.e. not 2.5 turns) and that the tower is tightly screwed down when you take delivery of your new boat.

@MrMoose Again, I appreciate your thoughts! and I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

But, I could not tell anyone what to do to make their AR towers safe, or exactly how many turns is enough?

And other questions:

1. are my bolts short or in spec?
   
2. exactly what and when got cross threaded - bolts? inserts? both?
   
3. how many turns did my bolts screw in from factory?
4. has that changed over time? was it the same the only time I had the tower down?
   
5. can cross threading occur as the bolts loosen up, as reported in numerous cases?

I do take comfort in knowing that several of us here in the forum are making some progress in identifying the issues and making sure the owners are aware.

But the fact that I am the only one who has been hit on the head (so far) is hardly reassuring. Without any modification(s) this issue is likely to get worse, not better, over time (in any given AR boat).

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[McMark]

If the bolt on the hand wheel had a long enough dog point with a proper diameter there's almost no way that it could be cross threaded.

 

[Wayloncle]

I've been in the mechanical field for a long time, I have seen lots of crossthreaded bolts and have had some bolts that wanted to cross thread because the threads were messed up. I can't imagine cross-threading a bolt by a hand wheel, it takes a lot of torque to do it.
I really think your setup was messed up from the get go, insert set too deep, shaft of bolt too short...something like that caused it to only thread in a few threads and it pulled those threads out....I don't think crossthreading had anything to do with it.
I sure wish the dealer or Yamaha would fix you up though:-/