Yamaha AR190 - True Neutral??

[bigwaves]

I’m in the process of buying an AR190 that I was checking out at the Baltimore boat show last weekend. I’ve never owned or operated at jet boat before. The salesman told me that Yamaha is the only jet boat with “true neutral.” I own a Formula 41pc (which I’m keeping) and am accustomed to having a true neutral. Is the salesman correct in that Yamaha has the only true neutral or is that just boat show talk? I haven’t finalized the deal yet. It’s contingent on my satisfaction of the test drive this Saturday. Thanks

 

[djetok]

I’m in the process of buying an AR190 that I was checking out at the Baltimore boat show last weekend. I’ve never owned or operated at jet boat before. The salesman told me that Yamaha is the only jet boat with “true neutral.” I own a Formula 41pc (which I’m keeping) and am accustomed to having a true neutral. Is the salesman correct in that Yamaha has the only true neutral or is that just boat show talk? I haven’t finalized the deal yet. It’s contingent on my satisfaction of the test drive this Saturday. Thanks

Mine does not have true neutral (2015) . You will ever so slightly creep forward. The jet deflector is just that a deflector. The jet is always thrusting out of the back of the boat unless its off. The newer deflectors may help more, I don't know. I know it helps with reverse from what others have stated.

https://jetboaters.net/threads/jet-boat-no-neutral.9403/post-378441

 

[haknslash]

There is no neutral or gearing/transmission. If the engine is on then thrust is being made. The only thing that controls direction of thrust is the reverse gate and how much thrust is dependent on throttle amount.

 

[MattFX4]

I own a Formula 41pc (which I’m keeping) and am accustomed to having a true neutral.

Nice! is the 190 going to be your dinghy?

 

[2kwik4u]

I have adjusted the bucket on my 190 about 13 times. It ALWAYS creeps one direction or the other.

When it tight spaces, leave the blower running and turn the engine off if you need a really "true" no thrust condition.

With that said, It is SOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to move between forward and reverse at idle that I find myself "changing directions" on the throttle lever about 120x as often as I did on my old I/O. The thrust is super tiny, and VERY subtle. You can easily put it in neutral, walk away from the controls to land a line, or put a fender out, and come back to the controls, and have only moved maybe a foot. The amount of thrust generated at idle is amazingly small......You'll have a bigger problem with a light breeze than with thrust.

So, to answer the question.....There is no "true neutral" on a jet boat (any of them, period). The impeller is coupled directly to the engine, and if the engine is running, you have thrust. You can tune the amount of thrust with adjustments of the reverse bucket position, but it's largely trivial and has little effect on actual position of the boat.

Trust me, you'll understand the first time you drive it. It's very easy to stay in "hold pattern" with the jet. Easier than my I/O was by far.

 

[Dean P]

I’m in the process of buying an AR190 that I was checking out at the Baltimore boat show last weekend. I’ve never owned or operated at jet boat before. The salesman told me that Yamaha is the only jet boat with “true neutral.” I own a Formula 41pc (which I’m keeping) and am accustomed to having a true neutral. Is the salesman correct in that Yamaha has the only true neutral or is that just boat show talk? I haven’t finalized the deal yet. It’s contingent on my satisfaction of the test drive this Saturday. Thanks

Yamis do not have a true neutral nor can they find it. That belongs to BRP (Chaparral and Scarab to name a few). In most water (current moving or not) I can "dial" in where the true neutral is. As noted above the bucket interference with the jet of the water coming out will stop the boat and keep it in one spot; great for waiting or talking to another boater or whatever. I could never to this with my 192. I do it all the time with my Chap. Love it.

 

[Nexus]

Yamis do not have a true neutral nor can they find it. That belongs to BRP (Chaparral and Scarab to name a few). In most water (current moving or not) I can "dial" in where the true neutral is. As noted above the bucket interference with the jet of the water coming out will stop the boat and keep it in one spot; great for waiting or talking to another boater or whatever. I could never to this with my 192. I do it all the time with my Chap. Love it.

I'd add that when you are in neutral, you can still rotate left and right. The BRP products don't suffer from the lack of maneuverability at slow/idle speeds that the Yamaha's do (hence after market "rudders" that improve steering at slow speeds. The only strange thing with the BRP boats is turning the wheel when reversing and having it turn opposite what you are expecting.

 

[bigwaves]

Thanks for the responses. I’m really on the fence with this boat. I guess my test drive will convince me one way or the other. I want a small, quick boat with a shallow draft for short trips. I was looking at a Regal 1900 es with I/O but the Yamaha really caught my attention. The shallow draft of the Yamaha and transom design is very attractive.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Yes it really does have true neutral, just shut of the engine!

 

[Dixie Highway]

Well if you are ever even considering salt water an I/O would be my last choice...

 

[mwalker4]

I'd add that when you are in neutral, you can still rotate left and right. The BRP products don't suffer from the lack of maneuverability at slow/idle speeds that the Yamaha's do (hence after market "rudders" that improve steering at slow speeds. The only strange thing with the BRP boats is turning the wheel when reversing and having it turn opposite what you are expecting.

Just trying to understand, how does the Rotax boats acheive the slow/idle speed maneuverability. I understand the better reverse steering because of the bucket. How do they acheive better steering moving forward?

 

[bigwaves]

Well if you are ever even considering salt water an I/O would be my last choice...

The boat will be in brackish/saltwater: Chesapeake Bay.

 

[bigwaves]

Just trying to understand, how does the Rotax boats acheive the slow/idle speed maneuverability. I understand the better reverse steering because of the bucket. How do they acheive better steering moving forward?

Are the Rotax boats better at slow speed maneuvering?

 

[haknslash]

I don't know which would be better now that Yamaha redesigned the reverse bucket for more lateral movement. Would be interesting for someone to do a comparison. My gut says BRP probably still irks out the latest Yamaha bucket design .....but latest bucket is apparently much better than 2018 and earlier design.

 

[Nexus]

Just trying to understand, how does the Rotax boats acheive the slow/idle speed maneuverability. I understand the better reverse steering because of the bucket. How do they acheive better steering moving forward?

Maybe slow wasn't the best words, but rather when you are coasting. The Rotax buckets throw the water to the sides rather than down. So if you re steering to the left, no matter what you select (forwards, backwards, neutral) there is always thrust going to the left. which is why going backwards feels strange. Turning the wheel on a regular boat or car to the left and reversing would result in the bow/front rotating to the right. Not so with a BRP product, it still rotates to the left. If you look at the two images below, a BRP jet and a Yamaha one, you can see that when the buckets are lowered and the steering is turned, again let's say to the left, the BRP will deflect the flow to the left horizontally, but the Yamaha will deflect it to the right and downwards.

So on the Yamaha, if you could find a true neutral (equal fore and aft thrust), half the thrust is going to the left, and the other half is going to the right thereby negating each other and losing steering. This is why a Yamaha, or "normal" jet boat, has to have some forward movement to maintain steering authority. This is why idle isn't really idle. It always has to more thrust in one direction than the other to steer. I think that this is one of the problems that the "thrust vector" products attempt to solve. Of course, I've never owned, or driven, a Yamaha product so this is just my speculation.

My previous boat was a sea-doo and it had separate throttles and direction levers. So, I could find a true neutral (where the boat wouldn't move) using the direction lever, but still have full control of left/right pivoting. The new scarabs do the same thing by allowing you to adjust how far the bucket comes down when you click it into neutral. Even though the bucket is partially down, it will always throw the water in the direction you turn the wheel.

Hope that helps.

 

[Nexus]

I don't know which would be better now that Yamaha redesigned the reverse bucket for more lateral movement. Would be interesting for someone to do a comparison. My gut says BRP probably still irks out the latest Yamaha bucket design .....but latest bucket is apparently much better than 2018 and earlier design.

Well, I hadn't realized that Yamaha had redesigned the bucket. Probably makes most of my points moot!
Yep, that would be an interesting comparison.

 

[haknslash]

Well, I hadn't realized that Yamaha had redesigned the bucket. Probably makes most of my points moot!
Yep, that would be an interesting comparison.

Yup they are designed for more lateral input with a 45 degree flare opening, still not 90 degree like BRP, but better than straight down like in the past. Because BRP are 90 degree I think they will always have more lateral influence but it would still be a cool comparison to see.

 

[FLBulldogger]

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here, having had a '13 SX190 and now a '18 SX195, there IS a way to get CLOSE to a true neutral and I have achieved it on both boats using this VIDEO by @Leojay. If you have a boat that is forward or reverse tracking at neutral this little adjustment does a great job of coming close to a neutral as you can get on a YJB.
I did look hard at the Chap's this past year, loved the whole package, but the dealer I went to wasn't to thrilled at having jet boat's on his lot (Chaparal dealer), especially since he had about a dozen different models from '17's to '18's leftover. So knowing some of the issues that have been associated with previous models and was going to be stuck with a dealer with an indifferent attitude about the boats, chose what I knew and came back to the Yamahas.

 

[Dean P]

I don't know which would be better now that Yamaha redesigned the reverse bucket for more lateral movement. Would be interesting for someone to do a comparison. My gut says BRP probably still irks out the latest Yamaha bucket design .....but latest bucket is apparently much better than 2018 and earlier design.

I don't know for sure but I believe BRP has a patent on redirecting water to the sides (90°) along with the size and shape of their buckets. If this is the case no other boat manufacturer will be able to duplicate the control at low speeds as Chap and Scarabs. I saw a you tube video of a Yami vs Chap (BRP) doing figure 8s backwards. The Chap could do it all day long where the Yami could not recover and complete 1 loop. They definately have better control at low speeds. The true neutral "thing" is an added bonus.

 

[haknslash]

Yamaha's wave runner reverse buckets turn out 90 degrees. BRP has a patent on their perticular design. @SamCF modified the waverunner reverse bucket to work on the boat with trim nozzle! https://jetboaters.net/threads/adjustable-trim-and-directional-reverse-bucket-install.17569/