Towing with Tesla Model X

[thefortunes]

@thefortunes You are not the only one I've heard compliment Autopilot on the driving experience for long road trips.

I'm really curious how that works out with brands that either don't have that level of autodrive, or how well it works with a trailer in tow. Our FL vacation was just use in the car without the boat, but there is talk of taking the boat to the gulf next year. Will be about a 12hr drive for us without the boat. I'm curious where we'll land with a boat.

In the EV's defense, my ICE truck can only go about 235mi (3.3hrs) on a tank of fuel. Assuming I get 12mpg towing at 70mph. While still incredibly inefficient (That 12mpg is something like 2.8kWhr/mi), it gets us about the same amount of time between stops. The refuel/bathroom break for us is usually around 15 min (we're pretty efficient there), so a little extra rest probably wouldn't hurt our feelings any.

It is a 110% complete flip on the mindset of how to plan a route though. That part, while only mental gymnastics, still requires some work to get others to understand (myself included). Route planning isn't quite as carefree as find a route and get after it. Gotta make sure the route has charging stations on the way, and that there is time built into the schedule to use them. I'm curious how this works out once there are more than just Tesla's running around needing charged.

Speaking of charging, that is actually one of the reasons I'm really excited to see the GMC/Hummer and F150 entrants. There is already a HUGE network of ford/GM dealerships around the country. Imagine a few charging stations at every dealership. It's a small fee/hassle to get that done, and then from there, they can advertise similar capabilities in charging network to Tesla. Possibly even better since there are quite a few dealerships NOT near a major interstate.

Anywho, good discussion

I have used autopilot when towing, it works fine (although I have heard that if you are driving an X or Y with the factory tow package you cannot currently engage autopilot). Obviously you increase the distance to the vehicle in front of you (it's a setting) and stay attentive.

15-20 minutes is the typical supercharge time, although you would need more range to tow to the next SuC so I think your times would double compared to my example.

Route planning really isn't necessary. You get in the Tesla, put in an address, and it routes you to your destination. It routes you thru superchargers if necessary. Having said that, for a long trip I typically take the 5 minutes to do a plan on ABRP as mentioned earlier and even compare it to Tesla's routing as we go. There occasionally are differences (that aren't really significant, but when you are going across country 2-3 minutes on each leg can matter).

The dealerships are not planning to have fast charging. Ford is partnering with Electrify America and GM is partnering with EVgo to use/buildout their networks. Both of these typically have 1-4 chargers at a location currently - hopefully they change that model in the future as that is not enough.

Edited to add: My experience with Electrify America charges is pretty bad. The nearest Tesla supercharger to Pensacola is about 100 miles away, so when we stayed there we tried to use the EA chargers. There were 2 of them (again, not enough) and they were both down.

 

[2kwik4u]

I have used autopilot when towing, it works fine (although I have heard that if you are driving an X or Y with the factory tow package you cannot currently engage autopilot). Obviously you increase the distance to the vehicle in front of you (it's a setting) and stay attentive.

15-20 minutes is the typical supercharge time, although you would need more range to tow to the next SuC so I think your times would double compared to my example.

Route planning really isn't necessary. You get in the Tesla, put in an address, and it routes you to your destination. It routes you thru superchargers if necessary. Having said that, for a long trip I typically take the 5 minutes to do a plan on ABRP as mentioned earlier and even compare it to Tesla's routing as we go. There occasionally are differences (that aren't really significant, but when you are going across country 2-3 minutes on each leg can matter).

The dealerships are not planning to have fast charging. Ford is partnering with Electrify America and GM is partnering with EVgo to use/buildout their networks. Both of these typically have 1-4 chargers at a location currently - hopefully they change that model in the future as that is not enough.

Edited to add: My experience with Electrify America charges is pretty bad. The nearest Tesla supercharger to Pensacola is about 100 miles away, so when we stayed there we tried to use the EA chargers. There were 2 of them (again, not enough) and they were both down.

First I had heard about who GM and Ford were partnering with. What a shame. They already have a dealership network, would be the perfect way to build that into the plan. I feel there is some serious lost opportunity there.

I doubt I'll own a Tesla. Ever. I'm not a fan of the company in general for a myriad of reasons unrelated to their tech or vehicles, so self driving and in car route planning are going to be interesting for me depending on which manufacturer I choose there. This also changes what stations are available, and how extended trip planning works for me. I'm probably hamstringing myself there a bit as an early adopter of another brand, and not taking advantage of the experience of Tesla, but I just can't own one of their cars.

 

[KCAR250]

You’re actually going to exceed 5000lbs. The 250 is a little over 4000lbs and trailer is 12??, add fuel and gear and you’re in the mid to upper 5???lbs. that being said I think you’ll still be fine.

 

[grywlfbg]

I will throw a colossal negative for Autopilot. It is absolute freaking garbage. It will kill you. Using Autopilot requires MORE effort than just driving myself because I am constantly on alert for when it will jam on the brakes in the middle of a clear interstate because it saw a shadow or something stupid. I have to keep my hands on the wheel and foot on the accelerator all the time. It is exhausting. I would NEVER tow with Autopilot. It doesn't even work on an Interstate in bright sunshine. Throw some weather in there? You would have to have a death wish.

Heck, I can't even use the cruise control because it uses Autopilot logic and it will just jam on the brakes while driving straight ahead on a wide open interstate or when someone is merging into an adjacent lane. I wish I could just get a regular "hold a speed" cruise control.

For reference, this is w/ a 2018 S100D, AP 2.5, latest software. It's certainly possible that the newer v3 hardware makes the system work better, but I haven't used it.

Do not kid yourself. We are at least 10 years away from full self driving.

 

[grywlfbg]

The dealerships are not planning to have fast charging. Ford is partnering with Electrify America and GM is partnering with EVgo to use/buildout their networks. Both of these typically have 1-4 chargers at a location currently - hopefully they change that model in the future as that is not enough.

Source? Just because they are partnering with EA doesn't preclude them adding chargers at dealerships. There is the question of who would pay for it but Nissan does this so there must be a way to work it out between dealers and manufacturer.

Finally, with the number of EVs that are coming out, charging will come. It's no different than the dawn of the automobile. Gas stations were few and far between. Motorists would regularly carry extra gas cans (and mechanics). We are still in the early innings of EVs. Everyone who has tried to build a charging network has struggled. It's a chicken and egg problem, but as the market grows the stations will come.

 

[thefortunes]

I will throw a colossal negative for Autopilot. It is absolute freaking garbage. It will kill you. Using Autopilot requires MORE effort than just driving myself because I am constantly on alert for when it will jam on the brakes in the middle of a clear interstate because it saw a shadow or something stupid. I have to keep my hands on the wheel and foot on the accelerator all the time. It is exhausting. I would NEVER tow with Autopilot. It doesn't even work on an Interstate in bright sunshine. Throw some weather in there? You would have to have a death wish.

Heck, I can't even use the cruise control because it uses Autopilot logic and it will just jam on the brakes while driving straight ahead on a wide open interstate or when someone is merging into an adjacent lane. I wish I could just get a regular "hold a speed" cruise control.

For reference, this is w/ a 2018 S100D, AP 2.5, latest software. It's certainly possible that the newer v3 hardware makes the system work better, but I haven't used it.

Do not kid yourself. We are at least 10 years away from full self driving.

Sorry to hear you have had bad experiences with Autopilot.

My experiences are different (as described above, 7 drives 800-1600 miles in the last 9 months, 99% on autopilot, sunshine/rain/even snow and I'm still here).

By the way, you can use cruise without Autopilot. It's still TACC, but it doesn't use "Autopilot logic."

Source? Just because they are partnering with EA doesn't preclude them adding chargers at dealerships. There is the question of who would pay for it but Nissan does this so there must be a way to work it out between dealers and manufacturer.

Finally, with the number of EVs that are coming out, charging will come. It's no different than the dawn of the automobile. Gas stations were few and far between. Motorists would regularly carry extra gas cans (and mechanics). We are still in the early innings of EVs. Everyone who has tried to build a charging network has struggled. It's a chicken and egg problem, but as the market grows the stations will come.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2019/10/17/ford-introduces-north-americas-largest-electric-vehicle-charting-network.html

Dealerships will typically have level II chargers (many already do), not DC fast chargers.

P.S Teslas have access to those public networks too, so it's false to call it the largest charging network.

 

[adrianp89]

I will throw a colossal negative for Autopilot. It is absolute freaking garbage. It will kill you. Using Autopilot requires MORE effort than just driving myself because I am constantly on alert for when it will jam on the brakes in the middle of a clear interstate because it saw a shadow or something stupid. I have to keep my hands on the wheel and foot on the accelerator all the time. It is exhausting. I would NEVER tow with Autopilot. It doesn't even work on an Interstate in bright sunshine. Throw some weather in there? You would have to have a death wish.

Heck, I can't even use the cruise control because it uses Autopilot logic and it will just jam on the brakes while driving straight ahead on a wide open interstate or when someone is merging into an adjacent lane. I wish I could just get a regular "hold a speed" cruise control.

For reference, this is w/ a 2018 S100D, AP 2.5, latest software. It's certainly possible that the newer v3 hardware makes the system work better, but I haven't used it.

Do not kid yourself. We are at least 10 years away from full self driving.

Something isn't right there. Our Model 3 with HW3 is phenomenal on autopilot. The only effort I have is letting it know I am not asleep. Based on my experience, I could see true self-driving in under 5 years.

 

[OrangeTJ]

Our 2016 Model S is pretty phenomenal on autopilot on the highway, too. Or at least it has been the handful of times we've used it for any lengthier period of time. Cruise control has been flawless as well, although sometimes I override it just to get somebody who is plodding along at 5 under the limit in the fast lane to move over!

 

[grywlfbg]

By the way, you can use cruise without Autopilot. It's still TACC, but it doesn't use "Autopilot logic."

TACC is ABSOLUTELY using the cameras and therefore it is using Autopilot logic/processes. I can tell you this because both Autopilot and TACC will randomly slam on the breaks when there is nothing in front of me except the shadow of an overpass or something spilled or marked on the road. There is no way that it would respond if it was only using the radar.

In my 2 years of experience, even when Autopilot is functioning well, it's like riding with a 16-year old Day 1 licensed driver. It reacts late to everything. It doesn't anticipate anything. As I said, it's very possible that this is a limitation of the 2.5 hardware that is unable to process all the information quickly enough so it is always behind the car. The beefier v3 hardware may behave better. But what I have is both nauseating and stressful as I watch a situation developing (brake lights up ahead) and the car does nothing until the last second and then has to slam on the brakes.

 

[thefortunes]

TACC is ABSOLUTELY using the cameras and therefore it is using Autopilot logic/processes. I can tell you this because both Autopilot and TACC will randomly slam on the breaks when there is nothing in front of me except the shadow of an overpass or something spilled or marked on the road. There is no way that it would respond if it was only using the radar.

In my 2 years of experience, even when Autopilot is functioning well, it's like riding with a 16-year old Day 1 licensed driver. It reacts late to everything. It doesn't anticipate anything. As I said, it's very possible that this is a limitation of the 2.5 hardware that is unable to process all the information quickly enough so it is always behind the car. The beefier v3 hardware may behave better. But what I have is both nauseating and stressful as I watch a situation developing (brake lights up ahead) and the car does nothing until the last second and then has to slam on the brakes.

2 settings may help...
1) Increase your following distance setting
2) Switch to Chill mode when you use Autopilot

Both will give you less acceleration and deceleration, while the increased following distance setting will anticipate better.

Not sure what to tell you about the random braking other than I (and it sounds like the others who have chimed in) do not have that problem.

 

[adrianp89]

TACC is ABSOLUTELY using the cameras and therefore it is using Autopilot logic/processes. I can tell you this because both Autopilot and TACC will randomly slam on the breaks when there is nothing in front of me except the shadow of an overpass or something spilled or marked on the road. There is no way that it would respond if it was only using the radar.

In my 2 years of experience, even when Autopilot is functioning well, it's like riding with a 16-year old Day 1 licensed driver. It reacts late to everything. It doesn't anticipate anything. As I said, it's very possible that this is a limitation of the 2.5 hardware that is unable to process all the information quickly enough so it is always behind the car. The beefier v3 hardware may behave better. But what I have is both nauseating and stressful as I watch a situation developing (brake lights up ahead) and the car does nothing until the last second and then has to slam on the brakes.

Funny, my is 100% opposite. It reacts too well and often too early. Using it in the city (which it is not approved for), it stops a little too late for my tastes, but probably is about normal for most people. I prefer to coast into lights. What bugs me the most is when a car cross ahead into a center median, it often reacts too quick and brakes a little too hard for my tastes. Again, I probably wouldn't even touch the brake in these instances. In either case those are my two gripes and both are for unapproved use, so nothing I can complain about.

 

[grywlfbg]

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2019/10/17/ford-introduces-north-americas-largest-electric-vehicle-charting-network.html

Dealerships will typically have level II chargers (many already do), not DC fast chargers.

P.S Teslas have access to those public networks too, so it's false to call it the largest charging network.

Thanks for the article link. I don't see anything in there about dealerships only providing L2. We know that a ton of Nissan dealerships installed chademo stations so the precedent is there.

2 settings may help...
1) Increase your following distance setting
2) Switch to Chill mode when you use Autopilot

Both will give you less acceleration and deceleration, while the increased following distance setting will anticipate better.

Not sure what to tell you about the random braking other than I (and it sounds like the others who have chimed in) do not have that problem.

Hmm. I have adjusted the following settings. The problem is that it doesn't do anything smoothly. When the car is overtaking someone it continues its speed until it hits whatever distance is specified by the following distance and then it abruptly slows to match the speed. I can try it in Chill mode to see if that has any effect. I also doubt that will affect my random braking as when that happens it hammers the brakes like in an I'm about to hit something manner except there's nothing there.

TMC is full of folks dealing w/ random braking. I think from my reading there, the problem is improving, but it still happens to me at least once on every drive and now it's happening with TACC which is a relatively recent development.

If your experience has been good then you are lucky.

 

[2kwik4u]

Anyone else seen this?

Model 3 tired airstream

 

[2kwik4u]

Anyone else just watch the GMC Hummer EV "premier" last night? Looks like a promising candidate, although there was no mention of tow rating. Also the starting price of $112k is a bit outlandish given the current state of affairs with Rivian being close to release. I did like the "targe/T-top" roof design, that looks very cool!

Still looks better than the Cybertruk.

 

[adrianp89]

I saw the commercial but didn't know price. At 40-50k more than top of the line CT... and its a GM, probably still uses crap parts, and Tesla is much more advanced in all aspects, I think the CT is still the choice to go even though its ugly.

 

[2kwik4u]

I saw the commercial but didn't know price. At 40-50k more than top of the line CT... and its a GM, probably still uses crap parts, and Tesla is much more advanced in all aspects, I think the CT is still the choice to go even though its ugly.

I'm 100% opposite of that view myself. Looks aside. The CT is made by a company that has never manufactured a working vehicle before, GM has literally sold MILLIONS of them. Granted, things like suspension design, materials selection, and such aren't rocket science at this point in vehicular manufacturing, things like choosing appropriate service factors, and other items that are judgement calls along the engineering path will give GM an edge there.

To say Tesla is advanced in all aspects is a large misstatement IMO. They certainly aren't ahead in design history, proven miles on road, dealership and service capability. Tesla is a tech company that happens to make passenger cars, with the CT showing a lot of that. Tons of solutions looking for problems in the CT.

Price for the GMC Hummer EV (Do I have to say the whole thing everytime?) is still a big issue IMO. They aren't doing themselves any favors in getting market share there IMO.

 

[J-RAD]

Anyone else just watch the GMC Hummer EV "premier" last night? Looks like a promising candidate, although there was no mention of tow rating. Also the starting price of $112k is a bit outlandish given the current state of affairs with Rivian being close to release. I did like the "targe/T-top" roof design, that looks very cool!

Still looks better than the Cybertruk.

I watched the videos last night. It looks pretty awesome. I don't think I'm a buyer at $112. Supposedly other models will come down the line that will start at $80k. They were saying 2023-2024 on those models.

The removable roof panels are cool. The 4 wheel street and crab walk capability is cool. I'm not sure the practicality... but it's cool. I agree it looks better than the Cyberwedge.

 

[adrianp89]

I'm 100% opposite of that view myself. Looks aside. The CT is made by a company that has never manufactured a working vehicle before, GM has literally sold MILLIONS of them. Granted, things like suspension design, materials selection, and such aren't rocket science at this point in vehicular manufacturing, things like choosing appropriate service factors, and other items that are judgement calls along the engineering path will give GM an edge there.

To say Tesla is advanced in all aspects is a large misstatement IMO. They certainly aren't ahead in design history, proven miles on road, dealership and service capability. Tesla is a tech company that happens to make passenger cars, with the CT showing a lot of that. Tons of solutions looking for problems in the CT.

Price for the GMC Hummer EV (Do I have to say the whole thing everytime?) is still a big issue IMO. They aren't doing themselves any favors in getting market share there IMO.

I see your point. All aspects is probably an overstatement. But when it comes what really matters for me (EV drivetrain and self driving) Tesla is light years ahead. I will also take a Tesla service tech at my house all day over a joe schmoe at the local Chevy dealer. Also after working on hundreds of GM vehicles, I general think they are all cheap and crap. Ever work or even been in an old H2 or H3? Quite possibly one of worst trucks ever produced. They somehow used a 1500 chasis and made it worse. There is a reason GMC/Chevy have been loosing significant ground in truck sales. GM may have a strong history but in general their innovation and forward thinking has been crap. I will take the now over a solid history (just like everyone choose Amazon over Sears).

 

[Murf'n'surf]

$100k plus for a plastic panel wrapped GMC? nah...thats a hard pass.

 

[2kwik4u]

I see your point. All aspects is probably an overstatement. But when it comes what really matters for me (EV drivetrain and self driving) Tesla is light years ahead. I will also take a Tesla service tech at my house all day over a joe schmoe at the local Chevy dealer. Also after working on hundreds of GM vehicles, I general think they are all cheap and crap. Ever work or even been in an old H2 or H3? Quite possibly one of worst trucks ever produced. They somehow used a 1500 chasis and made it worse. There is a reason GMC/Chevy have been loosing significant ground in truck sales. GM may have a strong history but in general their innovation and forward thinking has been crap. I will take the now over a solid history (just like everyone choose Amazon over Sears).

I'm still in big disagreement here.

The things that matter in a towing EV are NOT self driving, integrated technology, drive aids, or OTA software updates. That's not even on my radar as a potential truck buyer. Drivetrain and chassis capability, then Interior quality and style. Those are my top 3. Tesla has 1/3 of those nailed, the rest not so much.

Interior is mostly subjective. The Tesla's I've been in use the same crap plastic that GM uses. Might be better quality plastic, but you can't tell that from touching it or using it. The Model 3 I was in recently felt (touch of hand, sound to ears, not emotionally felt) very similar to the GM's I've been driving for decades. The doors are too light to the feel (I get weight savings, by the feel can be adjusted with hinges/etc). The center console was cheap plastic. The flocking was wearing off the inside of the cubbies in the console. The steering wheel buttons felt spongy and less tactile than they should. Styling is VERY subjective, and the giant touchpad on the dash isn't for me (although I saw a preview of the 2020 Silverado with the same thing). Best interior I've owned to date was my Audi. It felt appropriate for what it was. Doors shut nicely, had good weight to them. The buttons were a satisfyingly nice "click" to operate. The finishes on the interior, while still plastic, had nice textures to them, and looked amazing. Tesla is trying hard to hit that mark, and IMO still miss.

Chassis is hands down a GM win in this segment. Keep in mind we're talking working vehicle, not just human carrier. I had a 2003 Yukon. Same base chassis as the H2. It was a beast of a machine and was still running exceptionally well when I traded it at 180k miles. Hard winters, buried to the axle in mud/field grass, towing just about anything I threw at it. It was an exceptionally robust platform for my early 20's shenanigans. Biggest issue in that chassis/drivetrain that I had was a front wheel bearing. Major components took a lot of beating, and thousands of miles towing with no problems.

Drivetrain (engine/trans or motor/gearbox) I'll give to Tesla. They have more experience in that area. Things like throttle mapping, and system tuning are definitely edges for them. GM had a helluva time getting throttle response and regen braking to work on the Hybrid Tahoe/Silverado of the early '00 range, and hopefully they've gotten better. This is where they need to gain experience and develop heavily IMO. They have a long way to go to catch up.

Good discussion!