Towing with Tesla Model X

[2kwik4u]

The GM Nikola partnership isn't a surprise to me. You can see the last gen Silverado/Sierra lines and parts in the badger pretty clearly.

I'm on the fence about the GMC/Hummer. I'm a pretty loyal GMC owner, but need a few more details before I plunk down some cash for it.

Really hope the F150 electric isn't delayed. I dislike the Ford styling, but honestly think it has the best chance to make good solid inroads in the truck EV market, and I'm of the opinion that a rising tide raises all ships in this market at this time.

 

[Dean P]

I'm of the opinion that a rising tide raises all ships in this market at this time.

I like this saying but if you're too well anchored and don't let out some slack, you'll be left at the bottom.

 

[J-RAD]

The GM Nikola partnership isn't a surprise to me. You can see the last gen Silverado/Sierra lines and parts in the badger pretty clearly.

I never noticed prior, but I do see a lot of design ques in there now. Something about it has always had me thinking Toyota Tacoma.

 

[JackinHS]

hey sorry im late to the thread here, i currently own a Model 3 and a Nissan Titan, we live about 20 miles from our normal lake and 50 miles from our next choice lake. Im trying to see if its worth trading in the Titan for a used model X, until the Cybertruck finally arrives in a couple of years. i only read a couple of pages in this thread and was wondering what the final verdict was in regards to launching and towing with the X. 2020 AR190 so the weight of our boat is well within the specs. We love our model 3, had it just over a year now and nearly 30k miles on it even with the pandemic slowing us down lol

I am towing an AR195 with a 2018 Model X 100D. It's a non-issue with a 5,000 pound tow capacity. What I really like about it more than anything are the safety redundancies. If you open the door or get out of the seat, the vehicle automatically goes into park. No rolling into the lake as some have done. It's still quick. Could probably still drag an unladen F150 and beat it pulling your boat. I'm waiting on my tri-motor Cybertruck with 500 miles of range and 15,000 pound towing capacity. But, til then, the Model X meets the challenges of a 19' boat.

 

[2kwik4u]

@JackinHS I'm really interested to hear about power consumption while towing your AR195. Do you have an idea of average KWH/mi usage while towing? What kind of terrain? Cover on or off the boat when towing? What kind of distance from your house to the ramp and home? How often are you towing with it?

I have so many questions.

 

[JackinHS]

I am seeing about a 40% drop in efficiency. kWh when not towing is about 300-310. When towing, mid 500s. So, my 290 mile range is cut to about 180 miles. Towing on rolling hills Without a cover. One way to the dock is about 20 miles. So, no problem. We make the trek a couple of times a week. Seeing an electric CUV hauling the boat shocks many at the ramp.

 

[2kwik4u]

I am seeing about a 40% drop in efficiency. kWh when not towing is about 300-310. When towing, mid 500s. So, my 290 mile range is cut to about 180 miles. Towing on rolling hills Without a cover. One way to the dock is about 20 miles. So, no problem. We make the trek a couple of times a week. Seeing an electric CUV hauling the boat shocks many at the ramp.

Thank you for the response. That mid 500's number really solidifies the effect of aerodynamics. A pointy boat isn't as bad as a flat camper.

Honestly, I could make it to the closest 3 waterways AND BACK on 180mi of range. Especially if I stayed within the speed limit!

Thanks again, I really appreciate the real world feedback!

 

[2kwik4u]

In other EV towing thoughts. Check this out!

Watch Rivian Prove the Electric R1T Pickup's 11,000-LB Towing Capacity in the Hottest Place in America

Rivian took a loaded-down R1T prototype into 118-degree desert heat to demonstrate that yes, it can drive uphill.

www.thedrive.com

I'll take this kind of testing every day and twice on Sunday. Especially in comparison to the "it can drag another truck" stunt the Cybertruck pulled.

 

[JackinHS]

In other EV towing thoughts. Check this out!

Watch Rivian Prove the Electric R1T Pickup's 11,000-LB Towing Capacity in the Hottest Place in America

Rivian took a loaded-down R1T prototype into 118-degree desert heat to demonstrate that yes, it can drive uphill.

www.thedrive.com

I'll take this kind of testing every day and twice on Sunday. Especially in comparison to the "it can drag another truck" stunt the Cybertruck pulled.

The Rivian has great potential. Tesla has proven abilities. I considered the Rivian. But, Tesla’s charging network is far superior. With Electrify America having installed 1000s of chargers across the US in the VW dieselgate settlement, the gap has narrowed. However, my Model X has free supercharging for life. So, it would cost me nothing to drive coast to coast. That’ll be hard to give up when the truck comes along.

 

[adrianp89]

The Rivian has great potential. Tesla has proven abilities. I considered the Rivian. But, Tesla’s charging network is far superior. With Electrify America having installed 1000s of chargers across the US in the VW dieselgate settlement, the gap has narrowed. However, my Model X has free supercharging for life. So, it would cost me nothing to drive coast to coast. That’ll be hard to give up when the truck comes along.

I feel the same way, especially because the Rivian looks good and the CyberTruck looks like shit. But Tesla is light years ahead in regards to software, and probably still 5-10 years ahead in hardware.

 

[2kwik4u]

@JackinHS @thefortunes

Have some EV questions for you guys, and well, anyone else that has an EV.

What kind of range "buffer" do you leave when planning trips? For instance, if you KNOW you will have to charge between origin and destination, what kind of "buffer zone" do you leave when planning? 10%? 20%?

What kind of average Whr/mi usage are you seeing? I'm seeing some usages online in the 350-380wh/mi range for a Model X P100D. That seems a little high, but that's just a gut feel. Assuming you get that 380wh/mi of energy usage. Then the mid 500 Whr/mi usage with towing a boat. That doesn't seem like a huge jump between the two. I know aerodynamics are important, but I expected a "bigger hit" from towing.

Basically I'm looking into figuring out what kind of power usage numbers to expect from an EV when towing, and working backwards into what size battery I would need to hit my "normal" ranges of lakes/rivers while towing with an EV. Here's what I have so far:



Basically I can make it "round trip" to two of the lakes, but not the other two. Office commute is a non-issue. There are no superchargers along the way, well there is one, but it's less than 15miles from home, so it doesn't help much. Assuming something like the Rivian with a 180kWhr battery appears I'm getting really close. Honestly a "day trip" to Dale Hollow is somewhat out of the question anyway, so I might take that one off the list, as it's 3.5hrs drive at least. Maybe more, and I'm not going to do that tow twice in a single day. A 250kWhr battery from a Cybertruck would get me there if I had to, but that vehicles just not for me.

Final question.......What route planning software do you use? There are 101 different ones with a quick google search. Any site work better than another?

Thanks in advance guys!

 

[Dean P]

@JackinHS @thefortunes

Have some EV questions for you guys, and well, anyone else that has an EV.

What kind of range "buffer" do you leave when planning trips? For instance, if you KNOW you will have to charge between origin and destination, what kind of "buffer zone" do you leave when planning? 10%? 20%?

What kind of average Whr/mi usage are you seeing? I'm seeing some usages online in the 350-380wh/mi range for a Model X P100D. That seems a little high, but that's just a gut feel. Assuming you get that 380wh/mi of energy usage. Then the mid 500 Whr/mi usage with towing a boat. That doesn't seem like a huge jump between the two. I know aerodynamics are important, but I expected a "bigger hit" from towing.

Basically I'm looking into figuring out what kind of power usage numbers to expect from an EV when towing, and working backwards into what size battery I would need to hit my "normal" ranges of lakes/rivers while towing with an EV. Here's what I have so far:

View attachment 134512

Basically I can make it "round trip" to two of the lakes, but not the other two. Office commute is a non-issue. There are no superchargers along the way, well there is one, but it's less than 15miles from home, so it doesn't help much. Assuming something like the Rivian with a 180kWhr battery appears I'm getting really close. Honestly a "day trip" to Dale Hollow is somewhat out of the question anyway, so I might take that one off the list, as it's 3.5hrs drive at least. Maybe more, and I'm not going to do that tow twice in a single day. A 250kWhr battery from a Cybertruck would get me there if I had to, but that vehicles just not for me.

Final question.......What route planning software do you use? There are 101 different ones with a quick google search. Any site work better than another?

Thanks in advance guys!

A Better Route Planner seems to be the favorite among EV users. I just use the SC Tesla recommends in it's nav system.

The mileage never seems to be accurate for me. I get 290 mile on a full charge but in actuality its more like 230ish (maybe if I drove the speed limit that would help). EVs do much better in city than highway due to the stop and go which helps regen the batteries. Not sure if this answers your questions but this is what I observe. Hope it helps.

 

[thefortunes]

@JackinHS @thefortunes

Have some EV questions for you guys, and well, anyone else that has an EV.

What kind of range "buffer" do you leave when planning trips? For instance, if you KNOW you will have to charge between origin and destination, what kind of "buffer zone" do you leave when planning? 10%? 20%?

What kind of average Whr/mi usage are you seeing? I'm seeing some usages online in the 350-380wh/mi range for a Model X P100D. That seems a little high, but that's just a gut feel. Assuming you get that 380wh/mi of energy usage. Then the mid 500 Whr/mi usage with towing a boat. That doesn't seem like a huge jump between the two. I know aerodynamics are important, but I expected a "bigger hit" from towing.

Basically I'm looking into figuring out what kind of power usage numbers to expect from an EV when towing, and working backwards into what size battery I would need to hit my "normal" ranges of lakes/rivers while towing with an EV. Here's what I have so far:

View attachment 134512

Basically I can make it "round trip" to two of the lakes, but not the other two. Office commute is a non-issue. There are no superchargers along the way, well there is one, but it's less than 15miles from home, so it doesn't help much. Assuming something like the Rivian with a 180kWhr battery appears I'm getting really close. Honestly a "day trip" to Dale Hollow is somewhat out of the question anyway, so I might take that one off the list, as it's 3.5hrs drive at least. Maybe more, and I'm not going to do that tow twice in a single day. A 250kWhr battery from a Cybertruck would get me there if I had to, but that vehicles just not for me.

Final question.......What route planning software do you use? There are 101 different ones with a quick google search. Any site work better than another?

Thanks in advance guys!

1) Buffer: if you use Tesla's in car navigation it "recommends" you have 20%. In reality, with the constant monitoring and ability to adjust your efficiency you can easily use as little as a 5% buffer.

I have done a ton of trips (over 200 supercharges on trips) so I am very comfortable getting below 10 (even 5) miles of range left, but most people should plan at least 10%.

2) I haven't towed the boat, just jet skis, so I'll let someone else answer that.

3) Best route planning software is Abetterrouteplanner.com . You put in your vehicle and can adjust for speed, weight, environment, etc...

 

[thefortunes]

A Better Route Planner seems to be the favorite among EV users. I just use the SC Tesla recommends in it's nav system.

The mileage never seems to be accurate for me. I get 290 mile on a full charge but in actuality its more like 230ish (maybe if I drove the speed limit that would help). EVs do much better in city than highway due to the stop and go which helps regen the batteries. Not sure if this answers your questions but this is what I observe. Hope it helps.

Yep, speed is the single largest range killer as speed is squared in calculating Cd.

I just drove back from Florida in our 3 and averaged about 290 wh/mi, or about 105% of the combined EPA rating.

I averaged about 77mph.

 

[grywlfbg]

When it comes to future vehicles, we don't know what the Wh/mi values for the Cybertruck, Rivian, Hummer, Ford, Atlis, etc are or will be. These trucks are still a year+ out. Tesla is relying on their new battery format coming on line at scale to get the CT to have 500 miles of range at the price point they have published. We don't know if or when that will happen.

As for your buffer question, it is no different than your current vehicle. How comfortable are you running to E on your fuel gauge? I would say that when you first get a vehicle, regardless of its propulsion type, you are more conservative. You would fill the fuel tank at 1/4 or whenever the light comes on. Then as you learn the vehicle more you learn how far you can push beyond the light coming on and/or you learn how accurate the "miles remaining" meter is. It's the same in an EV. When I started driving EVs I would worry when I had 70 miles of range remaining (26% in our first Model S). Now I am comfortable running it down to single digits. Again, like in any other vehicle, if the weather is dodgy I want more of a buffer (10% minimum as who knows what could happen). If the weather is nice I'll run it lower.

 

[2kwik4u]

@grywlfbg Excellent post. Thanks for sharing.

You make some great points about "buffer zone" on range estimates. I'm the kind of guy that fills up at 1/4 tank usually. However that is based not on range anxiety, but the premise that a cool fuel pump lasts longer (the pump is cooled by the surrounding fuel), and the regular availability of fuel stations. I can swing in any number of places and refuel in minutes and be back on my way, so the need to be cognizant of the planning stages isn't high on my radar. With longer resupply of energy, and fewer places to do so, obviously that changes.

My overall goal here is to see if I want to plunk down some cash on a reservation for a new electric tow vehicle or not this year. Trying to make sure I cover my bases on my "normal" usage, with the premise that I need to cover everything but a yearly vacation with the EV. That includes towing to local lakes and rivers, as well as a few trips to see parents and relatives around the country. The big vacations will either have more time built in for charging, or will be in a rental with an ICE to handle the trip.

I 100% agree, we don't know what the energy usage will be on new models. We can make some "guestimates" based on stated ranges and battery sizes and expected loads, but they're just that.....guesses. The mid 500's was reported by another user here just a few places back. I pulled the "average" of mid 600's from the family on YouTube that has shared their towing adventure with a ModelX and a small camper. I would certainly hope that some of these new entrants to the EV towing pool would be able to find at least somewhat similar efficiencies. Maybe +/- 20% or so wouldn't be an absurd range IMO.

 

[grywlfbg]

The good news is that charging rates are constantly increasing. Cell chemistries are able to handle higher charge rates and as batteries bet bigger that charge rate is spread across more and more cells (which lowers each individual cell's rate).

Traveling hasn't been bad for us. I have small children and my wife hates fast food. So we stop a lot anyway and when we stop to eat we sit down. The car is nearly always waiting on us when we come out. I think I posted this above, but a common trip for us is to a theme park that is 220 miles each way. The campground there has cabins and RV spots. We reserve one of each. The car plugs into the RV spot overnight and we sleep in the cabin. It's fully charged by morning. So there are multiple ways to charge besides dedicated EV chargers.

 

[2kwik4u]

The good news is that charging rates are constantly increasing. Cell chemistries are able to handle higher charge rates and as batteries bet bigger that charge rate is spread across more and more cells (which lowers each individual cell's rate).

Traveling hasn't been bad for us. I have small children and my wife hates fast food. So we stop a lot anyway and when we stop to eat we sit down. The car is nearly always waiting on us when we come out. I think I posted this above, but a common trip for us is to a theme park that is 220 miles each way. The campground there has cabins and RV spots. We reserve one of each. The car plugs into the RV spot overnight and we sleep in the cabin. It's fully charged by morning. So there are multiple ways to charge besides dedicated EV chargers.

That travel plan is pretty great. Our vacations are usually more of a "hurry up and get there" experience. We did Cocoa Beach a few years ago, and it was setup where we left on Friday night, and I drove until Saturday morning. The wife and boy slept in the car on the way down, and I took a nap after breakfast on Saturday and they went to the pool. That kind of trip would have to be rethought for certain.

We're more of a "day trip" kind of family. We do a LOT of 90-150mi round trips in a day, with the boat in tow. It's not uncommon for us to do that Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday if it's a nice weekend and we don't have anything else going on. So the EV would have to be 100% charged at the start of the day for that to work. Friday being the toughest, as I usually fill up the truck on the way home so all I have to do is hook and go when I get home. That will make for a LONG day with 60mi of commuting, then 90mi of towing.

Once we decide to overnight somewhere, then charging becomes a "moot point" IMO. Typically those kinds of stays will have access to at least a 110V outlet, if not something better nearby. I know I've already talked to our "favorite" weekend place, and they have already been considering an RV plug on the outside of a few units for some of the fishermen, and camper that come through. So a 240V 50A plug would easily refill an EV overnight, or over a weekend before a trip home. I think even a standard 110V plug would get you there over a weekend, since our usage once we're at a location would be in the 10's of miles, if that.

 

[thefortunes]

Your Cocoa Beach example is how we typically travel.

In the last 9 months we have done 7 drives between 800 and 1600 miles. Each one was driven straight thru (stopping for supercharging/food/bathroom of course).

The longest drive (1550 miles) took 25 hours (21 hours of driving and 4 hours of charging/food/bathroom). I drove this one straight thru, by myself.



In 6 of those 7, I drove the entire way. In the other my wife took a brief leg so I could catch some zzz's.

With autopilot the car drives 99% of the time and you are just there to takeover if it does anything stupid. Mine hasn't, although in some areas (tight construction, for example) I prefer to drive myself as I'm not 100% sure it wouldn't clip a traffic barrel if it were on "my" side of the lane marker.

Because you aren't making all the little adjustments driving normally requires, and because you are stopping every 2-3 hours to supercharge you do not get wiped out like you would driving a car without autopilot. Your bladder tends to get trained that you will be stopping every 3 hours however

 

[2kwik4u]

@thefortunes You are not the only one I've heard compliment Autopilot on the driving experience for long road trips.

I'm really curious how that works out with brands that either don't have that level of autodrive, or how well it works with a trailer in tow. Our FL vacation was just use in the car without the boat, but there is talk of taking the boat to the gulf next year. Will be about a 12hr drive for us without the boat. I'm curious where we'll land with a boat.

In the EV's defense, my ICE truck can only go about 235mi (3.3hrs) on a tank of fuel. Assuming I get 12mpg towing at 70mph. While still incredibly inefficient (That 12mpg is something like 2.8kWhr/mi), it gets us about the same amount of time between stops. The refuel/bathroom break for us is usually around 15 min (we're pretty efficient there), so a little extra rest probably wouldn't hurt our feelings any.

It is a 110% complete flip on the mindset of how to plan a route though. That part, while only mental gymnastics, still requires some work to get others to understand (myself included). Route planning isn't quite as carefree as find a route and get after it. Gotta make sure the route has charging stations on the way, and that there is time built into the schedule to use them. I'm curious how this works out once there are more than just Tesla's running around needing charged.

Speaking of charging, that is actually one of the reasons I'm really excited to see the GMC/Hummer and F150 entrants. There is already a HUGE network of ford/GM dealerships around the country. Imagine a few charging stations at every dealership. It's a small fee/hassle to get that done, and then from there, they can advertise similar capabilities in charging network to Tesla. Possibly even better since there are quite a few dealerships NOT near a major interstate.

Anywho, good discussion