Help! Mystery starting problem

[subysti]

I hope these aren't interference engines or you may need more than just fixing the timing.

 

[andyak]

Latest update once again get the engine out of the boat.

I took off the intake and injectors and then removed the valve cover.

See attached photo timing chain seems very good and tight everything is clean inside and when I turn the output shaft both cams operate the lifters and the valves fine.

The mystery continues any ideas?

The next step will be to remove the head.

 

[CrankyGypsy]

ha, you don't mess around!

i wanted to know how your timing looked from here, but i skimmed through the manual and it doesn't describe how to check or set the timing. i've done this on Suzukis: their cam sprockets are stamped and the manual gives detailed instructions to get everything back into alignment even if you start with a box of parts - at TDC, you can easily tell if your timing is correct or not. the Yamaha manual lamely says to mark the sprockets and chain with paint before pulling and use this to align them for re-install. am i missing something in the manual? i'm sure the sprockets are marked ...might need to find a YZF-R1 manual.

 

[buckbuck]

I have been following but can't remember...is it possible that the valves just need to be shimmed. Although it would be odd to have at least one in each cylinder. 5 valves per cylinder, I think.

 

[andyak]

Yeah. I saw the lack of info in te manual. I don't see from this how it could have gotten off unless a woodruff key sheered

I am going to try to get another battery and put the starter on it and watch while cranking. Then maybe some soap water around the head gasket to check for bubbles.

I suppose the tensioner could be gummed up or bad as well. Need to find out before removing head if not necessary.

 

[CrankyGypsy]

@buckbuck until the dealer discovered the compression was bad, i didn't think it could've been anything internal because it had been running without issue prior to a "simple" exhaust gasket replacement. so i wouldn't rule anything out, no matter how odd. however, from my experience, these types of engines rarely need valve adjustments.

 

[rkluck]

The chain itself looks good. I wonder if it jumped a tooth. I know on imports timing issues would occur when the engine was shut off (or at start up). I don't know the tolerances with these engines but with Toyotas (etc.) most of the time the timing slip caused valve damage. You may have to pull the head to figure this out. I wish I could help this is very interesting and I know it always better to have a helping hand.

 

[andyak]

Yeah. Any concise info on how I can verify timing is correct would be great!

If it did jump a tooth, how the hell it did that when it never got running I don't know, so gives me concern.

The chain is very tight around sprockets. Much better than a lot of car timing chains I have seen

 

[CrankyGypsy]

i found a few R1 manual PDFs on my hard drive from the old shop and am looking for the timing info...

 

[rkluck]

My manual is for a different engine so I haven't looked. I know there are some very experienced people on this site and have worked with these engines. I bet you have the answer on how to check the timing shortly.

 

[Andy S]

this is a screen shot from the maintenance manual, do you mean the engine, oil, temp lights, 3 on each tach ?

View attachment 20571

Now that you have started to breakdown the engine it might be to late to check but did you add a few drops of oil and recheck the compression, see the bottom of the table that @Scottintexas posted. Depending on what the compression does with a little bit of added oil will give you a place to look for the cause.

 

[andyak]

Found this info for R1.

 

[CrankyGypsy]

for a 2004 YZF-R1: the best i am seeing is the camshafts are marked: the exhaust has a punch mark on the lobe closest to the sprocket; the intake has a punch mark on the lobe closest to the chain on the #2 piston. both should be straight up, together.
there also seems to be punch marks on the sprockets: rotate the system so they are farthest from each other - it looks like they should be level with the top of the head's mating surface at this point (this is not described, only pictured). then you will need to see the crankshaft sprocket to ensure the entire system is aligned.

alright, looks like you also have a manual.

 

[MikeyL]

I am still confused.
I would like to know this: How, if the compression was low, did he NOT get ANY "ignition" or fire from Starting Fluid ......
1) Unless he did not spray "enough" or get it into the cylinders, OR 2) he has some form of bad timing."
A) I still feel EITHER he is not getting any fuel into the cylinders ........ or B1) he has either Timing that is off or B2) no "spark" at all.
My 2 cents worth !
And I still feel the answer lies with answering THAT question. Best Wishes, Mikey Lulejian - Lake Oconee, GA

 

[CrankyGypsy]

i just emailed you the 2002 and 2004 R1 manuals - hopefully this will help fill in any gaps.

 

[andyak]

Thanks. Timing at cams is correct. Now what do I need to take apart to see crankshaft sprocket??

 

[andyak]

Also, when I tried starting fluid I did it at least 3x. With differing spray amounts- even once with fuel pump disconnected to avoid fuel dump addition. I think I got a burp out of 1 cylinder once.

I also had spark at cranking and with YDS test.

One of my original concerns was metal dust from cutting somehow blowing into fuel rail and plugging all injectors- but since starting fluid didn't work I dropped that thought.

 

[andyak]

Or should I be able to check timing without seeing sprocket by verifying cylinder 1 is at TDC ?

 

[MikeyL]

I may be dead wrong, but after reading what you just wrote, I still feel you are not getting any fire (or nada, to speak of)..
NADA. And I think the problem is EXTERNAL to the internal workings of the motor.
I sincerely hope I am correct. Best Wishes, Mikey Lulejian

 

[CrankyGypsy]

i was with you @MikeyL - until the dealer said the compression was low. now i'm not sure.
@andyak you thought your spark was weak - you haven't ruled either way on that, have you?