Lithium batteries

[georgia8]

Looking into replacing my standard batteries with lithium batteries. Just got new sound system and need something that will last all day. Any suggestions?

 

[biffdotorg]

The biggest benefit of Lithium batteries is weight savings. So while others are piling on lead or water ballast weight, you are taking it out. It makes sense in most cases, but do you have a desired outcome going to lithium?

I think many will chime in that they get plenty of listen time out of traditional batteries. Unless you have a crazy sound system installed.

For instance, we run 1000w amp, 6 speakers and 2 subs. One Group 27 marine Deep cycle gets put on the charger every 2 weeks. Your mileage will vary for sure, as everyone uses their stereo different, and not every one has the same access to power on a regular basis.

I would have a tough time justifying lithium, and would rather make a larger bank of traditional batteries as on a 23-24' boat, weight is not the issue.

Good luck!

 

[HangOutdoors]

Get youself a couple of nice AGM TPPL, like Northstars. You will get two for the price of one lithium. Only thing you give up isbsome weight.

 

[2kwik4u]

@HangOutdoors @biffdotorg Curiosity question......What's the voltage dropoff curve look like on Lithium? I remember back in the day moving from Alkaline to NiCad batteries in my RC cars, the NiCad was "stronger longer", but then dropped off a cliff. Like it ran fine, then didn't. Where the Alkaline was a noticeable linear slow down until the thing barely moved. How's lithium compare to a traditional AGM or Lead/Acid battery in that regard?

I'm off to google as well, but figured it was good conversation

 

[HangOutdoors]

From what i understand they do exactly as you indicated. That is their strength.

 

[biffdotorg]

Being an ice fisherman, many have switched to some sort of lithium, for weight, as they are dragging all their gear. They also noted drop off, as it was effected by cold.

In your research, be sure of what Lithium you are talking about. As Lithium is a generic term, and you will get all sorts of answers. And any answers from over a year ago do not apply, as the technology has changed that much.

The biggest names in Lithium batteries have changed the chemistry at least twice in the last 24 months! We had Lithium, then Lithium Polymer and now Lithium Iron. And all were for the similar points, mostly for weight savings, faster charging and longer lasting, but at a steep cost.

The latest Lithium is LiFePo4, which is a Lithium Iron Polymer. They claim 200% more power, half the weight, charges 5x faster and lasts 4x and more stable than the Lithium Polymer batteries that samsung lit on fire, or expanded and blew drones out of the sky.

That's great in a tiny device, drone or the bow of a bass boat where I have 36v and I drain them daily in a tournament. But at the cost, I will stick with traditional batteries. And today, traditional includes Marine AGM as HangOutdoors mentioned. As they have come down so much in price.

Good luck!

 

[jtwrace]

My Firepower Lithium is amazing!

Featherweight Lithium Battery

firepowerparts.com

 

[fatboyroy]

My Firepower Lithium is amazing!

Featherweight Lithium Battery

firepowerparts.com

Though it seems cheap and great deal the best amp hour in your list is about 66ah

 

[marcham]

Generally speaking, batteries are "killed" before they are worn out. Improper storage, lack of water, excess voltage, etc... lead to premature wear. That being said, most flooded/AGM will last 4-8 years.

Given that lithium costs 2-3 times more than agm, are you certain you will get 2-3 times more lifespan? Is the weight or space savings critical to your application? Do you need the high current capability? Are you willing to also replace your starting batteries to the same chemistry to ensure they all have the same chemistry and age?

Renogy 100 Ah 12 V AGM $234 , 50% usable depth of discharge = 50Ah $4.68 per Ah

Renogy 100 Ah 12V LifePo4 $800, 80% usable depth of discharge = 80Ah $10 per Ah

Renogy 50Ah 12V LifePo4 $500, 80% usable depth of discharge = 40Ah $12.50 per Ah

IMHO Lithium makes sense when space and weight is at a premium or for high current scenarios. A good example is converting an RV to all electric and to run it off batteries for 3 or 4 days and then recharge with a high capacity solar panel. Running an induction cook top or AC requires a high current capacity and having enough battery storage to run an RV on batteries alone for several days requires a very large bank. This would add a significant weight and makes it impractical with traditional batteries. Although the lithium setup is extremely expensive, it can power 3000W loads (hair dryer, induction stove, 12A-15A Air conditioner) and can also be recharged quickly. For a day-use pleasure boat, I'm not sure if the justification exists, unless you just want it....

 

[RobbieO]

@HangOutdoors @biffdotorg Curiosity question......What's the voltage dropoff curve look like on Lithium? I remember back in the day moving from Alkaline to NiCad batteries in my RC cars, the NiCad was "stronger longer", but then dropped off a cliff. Like it ran fine, then didn't. Where the Alkaline was a noticeable linear slow down until the thing barely moved. How's lithium compare to a traditional AGM or Lead/Acid battery in that regard?

I'm off to google as well, but figured it was good conversation

Just like your rechargeable razor. Your shaving and then it just stops dead. No warning.

 

[marcham]

Probably more than you ever wanted to know about batteries.....

Batteries: Lithium-ion vs AGM | Victron Energy

In light of my last post concerning the use of the DC or Hybrid concept for electrical power, it occurred to me that the system could also have used monobloc AGM/Gel batteries or indeed a bank of long life 2 volt gel cells. In that case why was Lithium chosen? Hopefully this post may go […]

www.victronenergy.com

 

[Ronnie]

My Firepower Lithium is amazing!

Featherweight Lithium Battery

firepowerparts.com

Big a$$ list and no pricing! I’m out already.
My interstate agms are 5 years old, I took them in yesterday and the rep told me they are as good as new. The their stated capacity is 800 CCA, the machine read that they are currently at 1200 CCA. They were over $200 new at the time but In retrospect they were or will be cheap if I can get another 3 years/8 total out of them.

 

[IN2H2O]

Not to discount lithium's but things get alittle explosive if moisture finds it way in. Additionally they require separate chargers. Sounds like you only need something to last longer. What weighs more 100lbs of feathers or 100lbs of lead? AKA 100Ah AMG vs 100Ah Lithium which has more capacity?

 

[HangOutdoors]

@IN2H2O They are not lithium Ion, They are Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePo4, and are among one of the safest batteries. They deliver more power longer and have the longest life as well as higher capacity per size compared to other batteries in their class. Also they do not require separate chargers if you have the proper charger. For Example, NOCO Gen 5. Will charge Wet, AGM and Lithium. I have two and they weight less than my single Northstar AGM TPPL. I use my batteries for my trolling motor. I also have a Wet for Starter and the AGM TPPL for house.

They are spendy and I probably wouldn't buy them for House and Starter unless I got an excellent deal. Also you rate batteries in Life span by cycles not usually time, for the most part. A typical AGM is rated for 300 - 400 cycles (For the Most Part). A LiFePo4 is rated somewhere between 3000 to 5000 cycles and 10 to 12 years of use. A LiFePO4 has a lifespan of 3-4 times and AGM or Wet. They should out last most boat owners. Also LiFePO4 have a high capacity to space ratio, which means you can store much more energy in the same space as an AGM or Wet.

When you use a battery there is a usable percentage. With a Wet or AGM your usable percentage is 50% of the battery. Taking below this continuously and you will degrade the battery and of course power drops off. For a LiFePO4, the usable percentage is 90% of the battery.

So basically to summarize, it is half or less in weight, will last 10x more in cycles, should last 10-12 in years, has significant more capacity than the same form factor as Wet/AGM, the power does not drop off on a curve as normal batteries and you can use more of the battery. They are half or less in weight for same form factor. They cost 5-6x as much as a cheap wet cell or circa 2x as much as a very good AGM TPPL Like Northstar. They are superior in everyway, imho, except for price. The only really question is do you want to spend more up front. In an average use case, they are more cost effective over time since they will outlast the other chemistry's by very large factor. Over time they work out to be more cost effective.

There is plenty of information on them, on the web of course, but these are the highlights.

@IN2H20 Your analogy of feathers doesn't apply here. 100ah Lithium usage rating is equivalent to roughly 200Ah usage on on AGM or Wet due to Usability percentage that is available on the different chemistry's.

Would I buy a LiFePO4 for my stereo and house, I don't know. I would have to carefully weight all the benefits it gives vs price, etc.

 

[Tjw961]

@IN2H2O They are not lithium Ion, They are Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePo4, and are among one of the safest batteries. They deliver more power longer and have the longest life as well as higher capacity per size compared to other batteries in their class. Also they do not require separate chargers if you have the proper charger. For Example, NOCO Gen 5. Will charge Wet, AGM and Lithium. I have two and they weight less than my single Northstar AGM TPPL. I use my batteries for my trolling motor. I also have a Wet for Starter and the AGM TPPL for house.

They are spendy and I probably wouldn't buy them for House and Starter unless I got an excellent deal. Also you rate batteries in Life span by cycles not usually time, for the most part. A typical AGM is rated for 300 - 400 cycles (For the Most Part). A LiFePo4 is rated somewhere between 3000 to 5000 cycles and 10 to 12 years of use. A LiFePO4 has a lifespan of 3-4 times and AGM or Wet. They should out last most boat owners. Also LiFePO4 have a high capacity to space ratio, which means you can store much more energy in the same space as an AGM or Wet.

When you use a battery there is a usable percentage. With a Wet or AGM your usable percentage is 50% of the battery. Taking below this continuously and you will degrade the battery and of course power drops off. For a LiFePO4, the usable percentage is 90% of the battery.

So basically to summarize, it is half or less in weight, will last 10x more in cycles, should last 10-12 in years, has significant more capacity than the same form factor as Wet/AGM, the power does not drop off on a curve as normal batteries and you can use more of the battery. They are half or less in weight for same form factor. They cost 5-6x as much as a cheap wet cell or circa 2x as much as a very good AGM TPPL Like Northstar. They are superior in everyway, imho, except for price. The only really question is do you want to spend more up front. In an average use case, they are more cost effective over time since they will outlast the other chemistry's by very large factor. Over time they work out to be more cost effective.

There is plenty of information on them, on the web of course, but these are the highlights.

@IN2H20 Your analogy of feathers doesn't apply here. 100ah Lithium usage rating is equivalent to roughly 200Ah usage on on AGM or Wet due to Usability percentage that is available on the different chemistry's.

Would I buy a LiFePO4 for my stereo and house, I don't know. I would have to carefully weight all the benefits it gives vs price, etc.

Well said HangOutDoors. Try looking at some videos out there by Jag35 as well as his website at jag35.com. Some very interesting stuff going on in recent years with batteries. But still pretty costly over all so for me its still a little high for what my boat really needs today.

 

[biffdotorg]

@IN2H2O

Would I buy a LiFePO4 for my stereo and house, I don't know. I would have to carefully weight all the benefits it gives vs price, etc.

One of the most informative posts out there. And that makes sense.

One dose of reality for this math though. Look at what has changed in battery chemistry in the last 24 months. And what will change in the next 24 months, let alone 10 years. I'm going on my 4th season with the 4 Group 27 deep cycle Duracells in my Lift and boat. So I am shopping, thinking they may be short for this world. But I am not going to buy technology with an 8-10 year lifespan, knowing that new technology will replace it in less than half that time.

The future of battery technology is going to blow our minds as more devices and vehicles are moving to electric.

 

[HangOutdoors]

@biffdotorg You a probably correct. But also need to live in the here and now as well as near future. Only reason I have LiFoPo4's, is they are superior for the application of the trolling motor and the weight. If I didn't have to consider that I wouldn't have spent the dough. Adding a house battery AGM TPPL, and additional 2 batteries, a 78lb trolling motor and few more things, I want to save some weight. Plus I am mounting them in the Starboard compartment way in the back. The lighter batteries are easier to manage back there on a slide I am building. I also considered that if I am out for a couple few days or more on a trip, the LIthiums will last without a charge far better.

I didn't like spending the dough on them though, not one bit.

 

[Bluewater272]

Lithium seems like overkill, just get some AGMs.

 

[HangOutdoors]

@seanmclean Why is it overkill? 1 LiFePo4 = roughly 2 AGM's of same size and a weight savings of 70% or so as well as same power. So really it would be based upon your use case and reasoning. 2 Northstar AGM is $650 vs 1 LiFePo4 = circa $650 - $700, for a lot less weight and significantly more cycles.

 

[Bluewater272]

There’s no reason to spend $650 on a pair of Northstars, either (well, maybe your trolling motor setup is a different scenario). I have a pair of Duracel AGMs running my house setup (plenty of electronics, pair of amps, etc). For <$300 you can have a battery setup that will run most boats for several days without a charge. Charges with a standard marine charger that I used for my old lead acids, too.

There are few use cases that would justify it, if you just want to do it for the sake of it, by all means.