Towing with Tesla Model X

[2kwik4u]

ETA: Regarding the 2kwik4u's comment about acceleration of a 4 second 0-60 and a 2.4 sec 0-60 being "nearly identical" is ludicrous (pun intended). I drive the 3.7sec Roadster daily and the 2.4sec S is in another league.

What part of the country are you in? I'll see about getting you a ride in one.

Much like you can't describe the acceleration of the Tesla to someone until they experience it, you can't understand a boosted launch until you experience it. Having driven both, I can say with a pretty high degree of certainty, that you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two in a "seat of the pants feel".

The only way a human can discern the difference is with the readout of instrumentation more sensitive than the human body.

They are both ludicrously hard hitting off the line.

 

[Nakk]

Fun, not Green. Well, only green incidentally.

How Does the Tesla Model 3 Do in the Snow? Amazingly.

 

[Nakk]

Tesla Model 3 Vs. Hellcat. Off the line or 1/8, the Tesla stomps the Hellcat. 1/4 mile, the Tesla wins. Look at the mph at the end of the quarter; at 5/16 the Hellcat is going to be the clear winner. If the Hellcat doesn't have a place to do a burn out, the Hellcat will be stomped in the quarter, not just beat. BTW, race slicks on the Hellcat, street tires on the Model 3. Put street tires on the Hellcat and it might as well go home.

 

[Betik]

oh wow such a cult for Iphone on wheels.
we have a hybrid and we love it, but we are not in love with it. Maybe a model 3 changes my mind although last time I drove a dual motor one, I was not blown away and the autopilot rode to close to the medium for me to feel comfortable on it.

@Nakk I would be very interested what assumption you make so model 3 is cheaper on the long term than a corolla ( or corolla hybrid for that matter). I used to own a 1996 and we sold it with 176,000 miles on it. We just changed the oil and filters. I am not sure what maintenance are you referring to that might be significantly more than a model 3.

 

[Dixie Highway]

@Nakk Not accusing you personally of being either of those groups of folks, just saying those are the majority of the customers bankrolling the Tesla company right now. And please understand I’m not saying this is hocus pocus and not the future, because I do believe EVs will be the future. What I’m saying is they are not ready for my particular vehicle use, and the cost is currently prohibitive. In my example, I said a LOADED Model 3 (waaaay more than the $38,000 mentioned, which I don’t believe is a dual motor or full autopilot model) and a Corolla. There is no direct apples to apples comparison there besides the size of the vehicle, which is where I have the problem. Tesla does not make a vehicle that compares in interior room or capacity compared to what I require. Have you sat in an F150 crew cab? It makes a Model X feel truly mid sized. I truly do hope you understand I’m not downplaying the performance potential or convenience of the Tesla, it’s pretty awesome what they’ve done. I do know performance as well, used to run deep in the 9’s in a Mustang (Tesla has a ways to go to catch up to that so far) and I see the P100D Model S throwing it down in drags on YouTube. All I’m saying is they aren’t quite there for me, and if you look at the numbers it’s probably 5 years away. What I’m interested in is the original point of the thread (sorry OP we may have jacked this a bit) is seeing how this goes in the real world.

 

[Dixie Highway]

And for what it’s worth, I have driven all 3 current Tesla models available. The cars don’t do it for me (not a dig, I don’t like driving most cars besides a sports car) and the Model X is ok until I look at the price tag.

 

[swatski]

Where we boat and trailer range can be at super premium, I would love for Toyota to offer a Landcruiser, LC200 not Prado, with hybrid drive train! That would be my ultimate vehicle, for now!

--

 

[Nakk]

@Dixie Highway , Absolutely. I did point out for towing EVs aren't there yet. I think they will be soon, but that's just an opinion and guess. I'm keeping my L94, 6L80 '92 full sized Blazer forever, or at least as long as I can get gasoline. I just won't drive it as much. I'm not saying Tesla's are best for everyone right now. I'm just saying the future is coming whether we like it or not. Also, for anyone that's buying a car, I'm saying it's kind of silly to not test drive a Tesla. Not saying to buy one, or even that you should. I'm just saying that for an awful lot of people a Tesla is way better than what they think. Also, remember that the press has a vested interest in slamming Tesla. $18 billion a year in automotive advertising, and Tesla spends not a cent. You think NBC/CNN wants Tesla to succeed with that business model? Fake news is real, and I've watched NBC news lie their ass off about Tesla. Not every one wants the future, and the future won't be best for everyone. I personally will miss the roar off a small block Chevy. But it doesn't matter whether I miss it or not, there soon will be kids born who will never hear it.

@Betik , I wasn't even counting maintenance. Just fuel, resale and purchase price. You aren't going to believe me, so just do the math yourself. Figure out your average gas mileage. Not what you wish it was, what it really is. Write down your mileage now. Fill the tank full. Record every nickel worth of gas you put in it for two months. Now you know what your real fuel economy is. Do the math for a Tesla, remembering that it actually gets better economy in stop and go traffic than on the freeway. Now, what's a POS Corolla worth in ten years and what's a Tesla worth in ten years? If you're only putting a couple of thousand miles a year on your Corolla, you may find it's cheaper to own. If you're putting 20K a year on your Corolla you'll find the Tesla is cheaper to own. Plus, and no offense intended, if the only Mx you did on your Corolla in 176K is oil & filter changes remind me to never get in your car or boat. You should have done your brakes at least twice, probably more like three times for the fronts. Your timing belt at least once or twice, your Trans fluid at least twice if an auto and at least once or twice if a manual along with a clutch and throw out bearing. Your belts should have been done at least twice, your coolant several times. I'd have replaced the starter, the water pump and the alternator just so I wouldn't risk being stranded on the side of the road. Your shocks should have been done no later than 100K. (Your factory shocks/struts were almost certainly toast at 80K.) Your CV joints were on the verge of failure and would have stranded you--possibly without warning--at any time. I'm amazed your spark plugs still fired the air fuel mixture. Certainly they didn't do a good job of it which means your cat was shot too. Plain and simple you got lucky. I've been a motor head for 40 years and I've learned luck never lasts, but proper maintenance does.

 

[thefortunes]

What part of the country are you in? I'll see about getting you a ride in one.

Much like you can't describe the acceleration of the Tesla to someone until they experience it, you can't understand a boosted launch until you experience it. Having driven both, I can say with a pretty high degree of certainty, that you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two in a "seat of the pants feel".

The only way a human can discern the difference is with the readout of instrumentation more sensitive than the human body.

They are both ludicrously hard hitting off the line.

I'm in Wisconsin but have a facility in Indiana that I periodically travel to, so I will give you a shout when I am over your way.

However I think you missed my point. I drive my 3.7sec Roadster daily and when I jump in the 2.4 sec S I (or anyone else who does) can feel the difference. It is night and day.

 

[PEARCE]

I drive my 3.7sec Roadster

Is that the original Tesla that they used the Lotus Elise chassis? In Lotus trim that's practically an aluminum street legal go-cart.

 

[2kwik4u]

I'm in Wisconsin but have a facility in Indiana that I periodically travel to, so I will give you a shout when I am over your way.

However I think you missed my point. I drive my 3.7sec Roadster daily and when I jump in the 2.4 sec S I (or anyone else who does) can feel the difference. It is night and day.

No, didn't miss the point. I get it. I'm just really confident in how hard a good running Syclone launches.

If you're in the Louisville Area shoot me a PM, we'll get you a ride in one. Leaves hard enough that my back teeth and chest hurt. It's quite the experience.

 

[thefortunes]

Is that the original Tesla that they used the Lotus Elise chassis? In Lotus trim that's practically an aluminum street legal go-cart.

Yep. They made about 2500 with 1400 of those sold in the US (if my memory is correct).

Tesla bought the Lotus glider, lengthened and reinforced it, switched to carbon fiber body panels and dropped in the electric drivetrain and batteries.

The result is a blast to drive, even if it does weigh about 800# more than the Elise. Much faster, but not as easy or fun to throw around.

I have over 80k miles on mine and I still grin when I drive it.

 

[Trevor Shipman]

That's an issue certainly. Four more opening in Alabama in the next few months though... Plus, don't forget you only use the supercharger stations on road trips. Day to day driving you just plug in at home.

Didn't need 300 miles, we did get 180 miles though. That's all we needed. Level 3 superchargers rolling out now will give you 250 miles in 15 minutes. Four hours at 70 mph is 280 miles leaving a very comfortable 30 miles in reserve. As far as running out of charge, you'd have to be pretty stupid in a Tesla. You tell the car where you're going, it tells you where you need to stop. It also warns you before you drive out of range of a charging station. It even picks the best station based on waiting lines. As far as driving skills in a drag race, the Tesla does everything, the driver just stomps the pedal. If the Hellcat driver doesn't get a perfect launch, he's got no chance against a Tesla. Street driving, a Hellcat just doesn't compare to a Tesla. Off the line the Tesla is just so much quicker. It takes time for the Hellcat to get rolling. Admittedly, if the standard race was 5/16 instead of 1/4 mile, The big V8 would win every time. If you run the 1/8, well the Hellcat will be behind by at least five or six car lengths. Remember, max torque at zero, and max torque is instantaneous.

Don't get me wrong, I love big V8s. I've been a motor head all of my life. I've rebuilt more engines than I can count, and have done a number of pretty cool engine swaps. It's just that after driving a Tesla, it became apparent pretty quickly that it was the future, and ICE cars are the past. Not because of being "Green". It's because a Tesla is just that much better.

Totally agree, I don’t think you can appreciate a Tesla and it’s capabilities till you drive one.

I’m salivating at the reveal of the truck next month!

 

[Betik]

@Nakk I take no offense at all, you are a man in love and I know my vehicles. Aside from that you might have missed the last sentence on my comment which said " I am not sure what maintenance are you referring to that might be significantly more than a model 3. " Please do read my corolla's oil changes and filter in context. Sure you could not mean to say that Tesla Model 3 does use shocks or brake pads right!!!!

since you seem so motivated to advocate for the model 3, I hope you can answer a couple more questions for me?

• In your 40 years of experience, did you always used to refer to car as "ICE" or "dinosaur"? These are loaded terms which indicate loss of objectivity.
• have you by any chance come across this youtube video. Granted they are getting money under the table from Toyota, but the video is worth 26 minutes.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

One thing that can't be defended is how ugly the Model 3 is, inside and out lol.

 

[djetok]

What I do is let people take a spin in one of ours, and watch their reaction. It's priceless. 0-60mph in 3.7secs (Roadster) or 2.4sec (S) is tough to understand until you've felt it. And it can be done by anyone, you don't have to be a "good driver" to accomplish it. Push the accelerator and hold on.

My daily driver is a 4.0 sec 0-60 car. I have driven a s and to say there is not much difference is a farce. My car , my checks are literally sliding back on my face. A sub 3 sec vehicle, my checks want to slide off my face. I will add that I tuned my car, upgraded turbos, intercooler, trans mount, upgraded intake, CAI and a couple of other supporting mods. This car previous to upgrades had a range of 415 miles per tank. That is driving conservatively, while have fun you can see the fuel gauge free fall. A S doesn't have to push it as hard as I do, so I will out range and refill quicker. The range difference is not much though.

 

[Betik]

@Nakk as per your recommendation I started doing an excel and I gave up on it real quick. But please do look at my assumptions and see if I missed anything.

2018 corrola vs 2018 Model 3 ( 1st year tesla was available). If my memory serves me right the lowest Model 3 you could get in 2018 was at $48,000 ( correct me if I am wrong). The trade in value would have been a bit of $25,000 and about $9,000 for the corolla.

Since you talked about real life MPG and not what wished for, I assumed 25 mpg for corrola, I take you are okay with 25mpg, right!!! I assumed $2.75 per gallon. I also put $0 for fueling the tesla and still you are off $5,000 over 100,000. Should I continue and start talking about insurance cost, tires, etc or this adequate.

I am very supportive of the technology and we will most likely get an electric Mini when it comes out, but I am honest with myself. We will buy the electric Mini because we like it, but not because it will cost us less in the long run. Deceiving yourself and try to make the case that it will cost you less in the long run it is just silly.

	Corrola	Model 3
MSRP	19,000​	48,000​
Out of the Door	19,000​	51,000​
trade in	9,100​	25,750​
out of pocket	9,900​	25,250​
MPG	25​	0​
Gallons used in 100K	4,000​	25,250​
total fuell cost	11,000​	0​
Total out of pocket	20,900​	25,250​

 

[thefortunes]

@Nakk as per your recommendation I started doing an excel and I gave up on it real quick. But please do look at my assumptions and see if I missed anything.

2018 corrola vs 2018 Model 3 ( 1st year tesla was available). If my memory serves me right the lowest Model 3 you could get in 2018 was at $48,000 ( correct me if I am wrong). The trade in value would have been a bit of $25,000 and about $9,000 for the corolla.

Since you talked about real life MPG and not what wished for, I assumed 25 mpg for corrola, I take you are okay with 25mpg, right!!! I assumed $2.75 per gallon. I also put $0 for fueling the tesla and still you are off $5,000 over 100,000. Should I continue and start talking about insurance cost, tires, etc or this adequate.

I am very supportive of the technology and we will most likely get an electric Mini when it comes out, but I am honest with myself. We will buy the electric Mini because we like it, but not because it will cost us less in the long run. Deceiving yourself and try to make the case that it will cost you less in the long run it is just silly.

	Corrola	Model 3
MSRP	19,000​	48,000​
Out of the Door	19,000​	51,000​
trade in	9,100​	25,750​
out of pocket	9,900​	25,250​
MPG	25​	0​
Gallons used in 100K	4,000​	25,250​
total fuell cost	11,000​	0​
Total out of pocket	20,900​	25,250​

Not going to nitpick a dollar here or there (kinda curious why you added $3k to the Tesla MSRP but nothing to the Corolla), but to compare a Tesla Model 3 to a Corolla (I know, that's what Nakk was doing) is silly.

A better benchmark is a BMW 3 series. That is what it is competing with (and beating Tesla Model 3 Outsold BMW, Mercedes, Audi, & Lexus Competitors In 2nd Quarter In USA — By A Landslide! | CleanTechnica ). Ouch, that sounded a little too much like I drink the Tesla Koolaid. Although I do like our Teslas, as I mentioned before I hope Audi, BMW, Porsche, etc... can compete fairly quickly because there are definitely things they do better.

Anyone who is buying a Tesla (or any car other than a reliable used, high mpg vehicle) to "save money" is fooling themselves.

 

[thefortunes]

My daily driver is a 4.0 sec 0-60 car. I have driven a s and to say there is not much difference is a farce. My car , my checks are literally sliding back on my face. A sub 3 sec vehicle, my checks want to slide off my face. I will add that I tuned my car, upgraded turbos, intercooler, trans mount, upgraded intake, CAI and a couple of other supporting mods. This car previous to upgrades had a range of 415 miles per tank. That is driving conservatively, while have fun you can see the fuel gauge free fall. A S doesn't have to push it as hard as I do, so I will out range and refill quicker. The range difference is not much though.

Thanks for the confirmation.

P.S. the Model S has a range of 345-370 miles (EPA - so driven conservatively). No mods needed to get 2.4 secs, however

 

[Nakk]

Here you go. I did say 10 years, and I assumed an average of 20K per year. I assumed $3.50 per gallon, which I think is pretty conservative. (I'm paying almost that now.) I assumed $0.13 per Kwh, the national average. (I'm paying $.08 right now. It's nice to have dams...) I didn't include maintenance. I used the base price for the Tesla, which is still WAY in advance of the Corolla. Faster. More comfortable. More cargo space. (44 cf.) Safer in a crash. Less likely to get in a crash. etc, etc.

	Corolla	Model 3
MSRP	19,000​	39,000​
Out of the Door	19,000​	39,000​
trade in	1,500​	10,000​
out of pocket	17,500​	29,000​
MPG	25​	0​
Gallons used in 200K	8,000​	0​
total fuel cost	28,000​	6000​
Total out of pocket	45,500​	35,000​

As far as maintenance: Yes, in fact the brakes will probably not need to be done in the Model 3. You rarely use them. (Regenerative braking is very effective in a Tesla. The Model S with 100K averages 90% pad left.) They just changed the recommended coolant change interval to never. Years of testing has shown the coolant does not degrade at the far lower temps it runs at in a Tesla. No transmission, which will almost certainly need to be replaced in 200K with a Corolla. Batteries are showing about 80% capacity at 200K, but advances in both battery chemistry and charging algorithms should improve that with newer Teslas. Tesla is about to release batteries with a million mile warranty. Lots more switches in a Corolla, some of those will fail. Factory shocks in a Corolla suck, and will need to be replaced at 80K. Factory shocks in a Tesla are high quality, and I'm not aware of anyone having needed new ones yet. (Doesn't mean it hasn't happened.) Regardless, you should get at least 200K out of them. Tires are a wash, except that a high performance car has more expensive tires than a Corolla. So tire cost will be higher in the Tesla. Brake lines will need to be replaced in a Corolla, the aviation quality braided stainless steel brake lines in a Tesla will not. Brake fluid should be replaced at the same intervals, although realistically the lower use of brakes in a Tesla will mean lower fluid temps and longer fluid life. The really big difference? Toyotas are designed and built to wear out these days. Teslas are designed and built not to wear out. You'll see manufacturing defects in both. But the Tesla is at least designed to keep going, the Toyota is designed to fail. (As is just about every car these days.) You used to see Toyotas run forever. My Blazer has 250K on it and is still going strong. I don't believe you'll see current vehicles like these last as long. Tear apart a CV joint from the 90s and it looks strong and well built. Good for a couple hundred K at least. Now? You're lucky to get 100K. I've looked at Tesla tear downs. Built to last, that's for sure.