Towing with Tesla Model X

[thefortunes]

There are SO many use cases that prevent EVs from working. People who have street parking, people who live in apartments, people who live off grid... The list is gigantic.

The reality is, there's far millions of people who can't make an EV work that will either be solely buying used cars, buying from whatever ICE manufacturers are left, or pushed out of vehicle ownership entirely. With the average age of a car on the road approaching 15 years now, a battery that's warranties for 6 or 7 years doesn't really do a whole lot for those used buyers.

To be honest, i can easily see this whole thing backfiring spectacularly. All it takes is a swing from far left to far right in our government to elimate the carbon credits market, remove the pushes for EVs, and this whole movement would hit a wall headfirst.

That's to say nothing of the power generation and distribution challenges to even power all these EVs.

I'm tempted to snark "yep, why would we ever buy a car when we can just ride a horse that feeds itself?"

However, I'll just address the concerns you noted above.

Street parking: Would You Be More Likely to Buy an EV If Your City Had Curbside Chargers?

Apartment dwellers: Many apartments are putting in chargers. I just put one in the parking lot at my vacation condo - the Board was curious and did it as a test. Now other owners are asking to do the same.

Off grid: by definition they must have some type of energy generation (wind, solar, etc...) so they have the opportunity to charge from that. I have friends even here in Wisconsin that generate more from their solar than they use (including electric cars).

Just like an ICE isn't dead when its warranty expires, because a battery is "only" warrantied for 8 years doesn't mean it's dead after that. I have ~150k on an 8 year old EV and ~85k on an 11 year old EV. Both still have greater than 90% of their original range. My newest EV (2020) has ~30k and has lost about 3%. Even more dramatic, my brother has over 300k on his 7 year old EV and he claims to still have over 90% - I've told him he should contact Tesla as they might want to figure out why it has been so good.

While I could give 2 shits about carbon credits, you do realize that Tesla is profitable without them, right? Oh, and that oil is also subsidized?

Re: power generation and distribution - the fleet of vehicles on the road isn't going to flip immediately. There is time to update as needed (which, by the way is WAYY less than the naysayers think because MOST charging is done off-peak when there is excess capacity).

Edited to add: I have yet to meet an individual who went as far as test driving an EV who didn't end up buying one. Maybe not the first time, but eventually. The drivetrain is just that much better. As the EV competition grows it should bring the rest of the car experience in line with what consumers expect (i.e. fit/finish/options).

 

[adrianp89]

There are SO many use cases that prevent EVs from working. People who have street parking, people who live in apartments, people who live off grid... The list is gigantic.

The reality is, there's far millions of people who can't make an EV work that will either be solely buying used cars, buying from whatever ICE manufacturers are left, or pushed out of vehicle ownership entirely. With the average age of a car on the road approaching 15 years now, a battery that's warranties for 6 or 7 years doesn't really do a whole lot for those used buyers.

To be honest, i can easily see this whole thing backfiring spectacularly. All it takes is a swing from far left to far right in our government to elimate the carbon credits market, remove the pushes for EVs, and this whole movement would hit a wall headfirst.

That's to say nothing of the power generation and distribution challenges to even power all these EVs.

I don't dis-agree with your points. There are a lot of solutions for these problems. I know people that live in apartments with Teslas. One pays for a garage so he has his power. Another lives on the bottom floor and runs a power cord out to her car. Several just charge up for free at their works, and the rest charge up once a week at a SuperCharger. As they become more popular, it will be common to see the chargers like gas pumps, again no different than ICE.

"With the average age of a car on the road approaching 15 years now, a battery that's warranties for 6 or 7 years doesn't really do a whole lot for those used buyers." - You don't get an engine warranty either. Companies will offer warranties, people will make after-market replacement batteries for ones that need to be replaced. The risk here will be no different than a used ICE.

The movement won't fail because the car is so much better. Not sure if you have driven an electric vehicle, but it blows away driving an ICE. The experience isn't even close. The only ones that will disagrees are the minority of people who want to be one with the car, and tough luck for them because stick shifts are pretty much gone now too. Though I am curious how those people feel about an electric vehicle with a stick (just read about this yesterday).

 

[adrianp89]

Edited to add: I have yet to meet an individual who went as far as test driving an EV who didn't end up buying one. Maybe not the first time, but eventually. The drivetrain is just that much better. As the EV competition grows it should bring the rest of the car experience in line with what consumers expect (i.e. fit/finish/options).

This.

It's like my buddy that always ordered medium-well steak. "All that red is gross, is it still mooing blah blah blah" ..... got him to try medium rare - "Wow this is amazing, its so flavorful, how have I been missing out my whole life on this".

 

[thefortunes]

...As they become more popular, it will be common to see the chargers like gas pumps, again no different than ICE...

Except we need to change our perception that there needs to be places, like gas stations, to charge. Decentralization of the charging (i.e. homes, apartments, work, etc...) is significantly more convenient than having to go to a gas station.

Since phones were mentioned earlier, think about if your phone ran on gas and you had to go somewhere to fill it once a week. Now 98% of us just plug them in when we go to bed (as we do when we arrive home with our cars). 3 seconds. Done.

There will need to be charging for traveling, but that is either here (Tesla - although they are still expanding) or growing rapidly (Electrify America for one).

 

[BlkGS]

I think it's a bit nuts to expect apartment complexes to put in charging stations for tenants. Maybe ones that are higher end, but your average person doesn't live in a luxury apartment, or one with a garage.

I have driven EVs. They were fine. Heavy, accelerated quick, but overall fine. They weren't amazingly better, that's for sure. They were different.

Here's my thing. I will freely admit electric motors make a lot of sense. My point is that batteries don't. GM had it right with the Bolt, an electric power train, with a ICE range extender.

 

[2kwik4u]

Honestly, I don't think we are any closer. You're expecting people to change to meet the deficiencies of a technology. That's like saying that we should all learn to be OK with our food being cold in the center because the microwave doesn't cook it well enough.

We're significantly closer. Charging network is significantly improved. Model availability from multiple manufacturers has improved. Essentially we're seeing monthly incremental improvements in hardware, software, and integration. Heck, I saw a Mustang MachE charging at the Corvette Museum on Sunday. That alone scream forward progress to me.

People don't need to change to meet the deficiencies, just accept some of the tradeoffs, and alter their actions slightly to integrate the different tech. Have a microwave in your home? Same premise. It makes food hot, by using a different tech than a stove. The tradeoff is you don't get the same texture when the meat is heated by microwaves instead of a flame. While some will want to use the stove for ever (I still do), others will move away from it in general. I make a lot more stuff in the microwave than I did 10yrs ago. Same as the cellphone story above. Sure, the lack of "all day battery power" was removed, but I made a small change to work an alternative technology into my usage. The overarching goal was still completed (access to email/phone for the entirety of the day), but the path to get there was a little different.

If you look at technology adoption, I would wager that First Responders, Farmers, Construction Crews, Heavy Transport are more likely to need the versatility for long days away from a charge and either won't adopt ever or will adopt later. Commuters, general usage vehicles, delivery vans, garbage trucks, street sweepers, busses, and others that are able to have a lower duty cycle (and longer time away from a charge) will adopt sooner. When the power density of a battery pack meets or exceeds that of chemical fuels, the adoption rate will skyrocket in all venues. I think the use case for a passenger car ICE powered vehicle is already down to niche markets (such as us who have to commute and tow a boat on the weekend).

Finally, ICEs won't go away in the near future. It will be decades before they disappear. EV's will take over the mainstream, but there will be a use for ICE powered vehicles in so many places that they aren't going anywhere. Things like construction equipment, emergency generators, diesel locomotives, heavy haul/long distance transporters. All of those will keep gas station infrastructure in place for many many years to come.

 

[thefortunes]

I think it's a bit nuts to expect apartment complexes to put in charging stations for tenants. Maybe ones that are higher end, but your average person doesn't live in a luxury apartment, or one with a garage.

I have driven EVs. They were fine. Heavy, accelerated quick, but overall fine. They weren't amazingly better, that's for sure. They were different.

Here's my thing. I will freely admit electric motors make a lot of sense. My point is that batteries don't. GM had it right with the Bolt, an electric power train, with a ICE range extender.

Re: apartments - it's just another feature that can be a differentiator. If it makes a difference in the amount you can charge a tenant (it does) then you will see it become more common.

You may be one of a few who doesn't think the drivetrain is better. Even my car collecting buddy (multiple toys including a Viper, a couple BMWs, Miatas, motorcycles and others) is about to buy one because of driving mine. The "visceral" effect (noise, smell, etc...) isn't there, but the ability to put the EV where you want it, NOW, is something that the ICE can't match.

P.S. that was a Volt, not a Bolt.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think it's a bit nuts to expect apartment complexes to put in charging stations for tenants. Maybe ones that are higher end, but your average person doesn't live in a luxury apartment, or one with a garage.

I have driven EVs. They were fine. Heavy, accelerated quick, but overall fine. They weren't amazingly better, that's for sure. They were different.

Here's my thing. I will freely admit electric motors make a lot of sense. My point is that batteries don't. GM had it right with the Bolt, an electric power train, with a ICE range extender.

just a matter of time before EV charging is expected utility function. Like phone/internet/cable access. It's a luxury now, but it'll be mainstream enough soon enough. Same goes for fiber optic connections, they're not here everywhere, but they're coming.

I too have driven EV's. They're different. I don't like the lack of drama they exhibit. As a self proclaimed "car guy" I like to hear/feel the shifts. I want to have good steering feedback in a light chassis (despite driving a 2.5ton electric assisted SUV currently). Even the wifes CVT transmitted Rogue is fun to put into "manual mode" even though it's all a big lie mechanically. I also tend to like to have the "oddball" vehicle. My previous cars list reads like a who's who of "WTF did you choose that?". TBSS, RX7's and RX8's, oddball BMW 325i....I tend to have vehicles that are uniquely powered, have a unique appearance, or are otherwise "anamolies" and EV's tend to squash that a little bit, especially with the lack of consumer choices in the early stages. If you're a "my car is an appliance" then they just fit in and work. They're expensive to buy, but cheap to maintain and fuel, and just "work" most of the time. It's all about how much drama you want in your vehicular life. I like a little more than what an EV provides when I'm by myself. With the family, it's just another appliance though.

I too like the Volt premise. It was a really unique powertrain that was somewhat ahead of it's time IMO. No direct connection (except in emergency retrieval mode) for the ICE to power the wheels. It had all the commuting benefits of an EV without any of the range tradeoffs of long haul EV's. You could drive it to work on Friday morning, and take a trip to Grandmas 3 states away in the evening without every having to hit a charging station.

*edit* forgot to add a bit about the old GM hybrid trucks and SUV's (Including an Escalade). They had great reviews when towing. If I remember right a member here had one and liked it while he had it. Can't remember his user name. Was like tax8ver or something like that. Anywho, those were designed off hybrid bus technology and had a battery under the rear seat, and a 60kW motor in the transmission. Revers was 100% electric, which was weird. Also it never had to downshift while pulling a load up a hill, it would just employ the electric motor for the added power required. Lead to towing numbers in the 20+mpg range. Used the motor as part of the braking methodology as well, although that was less than smooth from what I remember. These were like '02-'04 models, so sneaking up on 20yr old trucks at this point. Anyway, just another example of tech that was ahead of it's time and didn't have a high enough take rate to make it financially feasable.

 

[BlkGS]

You're wrong about fiber, lol.. I worked in that industry and can tell you there will never be what you're envisioning. There's a very important reason, cost. It's far more cost effective to run fiber to a 5g node, and do you last bit wirelessly. That's where the majority of the cost is, truly. It's labor intensive, homeowners are obnoxious, and the whole build is expensive, and it costs several times more in an existing neighborhood vs a new build of mcmansions


Theres important parallels here for EVs. You sure can find a few people out there willing to buy an EV. You can find some willing to buy gig fiber internet
But not enough to make it viable to roll it out to nearly 100% of customers. The ROI on fiber internet was decades, and they never hit the take rate to actually even hit that number.

So instead of adding all the cost of doing ftth, you do fiber to the 5g antenna, and wirelessly beam to you customers. Similar, rather than putting chargers all over the place and hoping that people building apartments will pay for an ass load of chargers and a giant electric line, you could just equip cars with smaller battery packs and a gasoline generator to charge for long trips. I know it's not as tech flashy as a battery powered vehicle, but it's the logical way to do it, all the benefits of the electric motor without the drawbacks of being batter only.

 

[BlkGS]

Re: apartments - it's just another feature that can be a differentiator. If it makes a difference in the amount you can charge a tenant (it does) then you will see it become more common.

You may be one of a few who doesn't think the drivetrain is better. Even my car collecting buddy (multiple toys including a Viper, a couple BMWs, Miatas, motorcycles and others) is about to buy one because of driving mine. The "visceral" effect (noise, smell, etc...) isn't there, but the ability to put the EV where you want it, NOW, is something that the ICE can't match.

P.S. that was a Volt, not a Bolt.

Outside of a few cities, apartment dwellers aren't exactly the market for 40k.us new cars. Why would a complex take the cost of 1 or 2 chargers per unit on? Plus the extra cost to supply. Power to the complex?

And you think people are going to EXPECT that? They're renters, they are gonna get what they get. If they want more, they'll buy a home.

 

[thefortunes]

Outside of a few cities, apartment dwellers aren't exactly the market for 40k.us new cars. Why would a complex take the cost of 1 or 2 chargers per unit on? Plus the extra cost to supply. Power to the complex?

And you think people are going to EXPECT that? They're renters, they are gonna get what they get. If they want more, they'll buy a home.

Do you know what it costs to install a charger in new construction? (about $600)
A 240v outlet (which is what most will do)? ($100)
The additional "power" to the complex? ($0)

These aren't superchargers we're talking about here, they are basically the same outlet your electric dryer plugs into.

In fact, my condo only has 100A service and we were still able to install the outlet. $250 since it was not new construction and had to go through a brick wall.

Where did I say people would "EXPECT that"? What I said is that it will be (and is) a differentiator in allowing higher rents. No different than a pool, exercise facility, in unit laundry, etc...

Edited to add: The 2022 Nissan Leaf starts under $20k after Fed tax credit. Not a primary car (only around 150 mile range) but makes a decent (if uninspiring) 2nd car.

 

[BlkGS]

Do you know what it costs to install a charger in new construction? (about $600)
A 240v outlet (which is what most will do)? ($100)
The additional "power" to the complex? ($0)

These aren't superchargers we're talking about here, they are basically the same outlet your electric dryer plugs into.

In fact, my condo only has 100A service and we were still able to install the outlet. $250 since it was not new construction and had to go through a brick wall.

Where did I say people would "EXPECT that"? What I said is that it will be (and is) a differentiator in allowing higher rents. No different than a pool, exercise facility, in unit laundry, etc...

Edited to add: The 2022 Nissan Leaf starts under $20k after Fed tax credit. Not a primary car (only around 150 mile range) but makes a decent (if uninspiring) 2nd car.

People who live in apartments don't have "second cars" typically, unless it's a couple. The Leaf is also tiny, and won't work for your average suburban family of 4.3 people.

And how do you figure you're not going to need to have a higher service to an apt complex? Around here most complex are series of 3 story bldgs with 4 to 6 units per floor. Usually 20 or so buildings. If you assume 2 chargers per unit so that 2 residents can charge their cars, that's 480 chargers for a complex. So assuming each one draws 30A while charging, that's just under 15000A of new current draws happening at the same time. In addition to the draw on each units AC, appliances, etc.

BEVs will work at 10 to 20% adoption with it concentrated in upper income brackets. But at 100%, it logistically doesn't work anymore. That's why pushing for 100% BEVs is a disastrous idea. It makes far more sense to push for a mix of BEVs, hybrids, and ICE.

 

[thefortunes]

People who live in apartments don't have "second cars" typically, unless it's a couple. The Leaf is also tiny, and won't work for your average suburban family of 4.3 people.

And how do you figure you're not going to need to have a higher service to an apt complex? Around here most complex are series of 3 story bldgs with 4 to 6 units per floor. Usually 20 or so buildings. If you assume 2 chargers per unit so that 2 residents can charge their cars, that's 480 chargers for a complex. So assuming each one draws 30A while charging, that's just under 15000A of new current draws happening at the same time. In addition to the draw on each units AC, appliances, etc.

BEVs will work at 10 to 20% adoption with it concentrated in upper income brackets. But at 100%, it logistically doesn't work anymore. That's why pushing for 100% BEVs is a disastrous idea. It makes far more sense to push for a mix of BEVs, hybrids, and ICE.

Because in most cases it's not new current draw. It's available capacity. Did you miss where I installed it in my Florida condo that only had 100A?

And you're obviously arguing just to argue. In one sentence you say apartments don't have second cars and in the next you say each apartment will need 2 chargers.

Good luck. It's coming.

 

[BlkGS]

Because in most cases it's not new current draw. It's available capacity. Did you miss where I installed it in my Florida condo that only had 100A?

And you're obviously arguing just to argue. In one sentence you say apartments don't have second cars and in the next you say each apartment will need 2 chargers.

Good luck. It's coming.

If you're going to wire up a parents, of course you're going to do 2. That's pretty standard for apartments, 2 parking spots per unit.

I get it, you're bought in.. My point is not everyone is as sold on it as you, and that will prevent thisn100% adoption people expect that will never happen.

 

[adrianp89]

Because in most cases it's not new current draw. It's available capacity. Did you miss where I installed it in my Florida condo that only had 100A?

And you're obviously arguing just to argue. In one sentence you say apartments don't have second cars and in the next you say each apartment will need 2 chargers.

Good luck. It's coming.

I dropped it with him lol, a little to close minded for the conversation.

 

[BlkGS]

I dropped it with him lol, a little to close minded for the conversation.

Amazing, people who insist their way is the only possible future thinking others are close minded? Where have I seen this before...

 

[Peelz]

If I could drive an EV that I could fill up 440 to 600 miles of range in 5 minutes anywhere in the country... I'd be happy. But I don't see myself adapting to their technology.

This was me 5-6 yrs ago talking with a Tesla rep, verbatim!!!! Maybe you'll get there, as I did, and...maybe you wont... Because of my mentailty, and how I feel about motorcycling, I thought this would be an issue-but its gone.

I remember my grandpa telling my dad a story about taking the horse to town instead of the car because it was low, and they weren't sure if the station in town had gas. also it was 5 cents a gallon lol my guess was that was around 1925-he was born in 1908.

SO the switch to EV maybe a little more difficult and takes some forethought.. And will take time. But as I told my son when he asked me for a ride because his moped didn't want to start and there was stuff in the way but still wanted to go somewhere last night:

"difficult doesnt mean you cant do it, it just means it might take a bit longer and your hands could get dirty. dont come in here saying "i can't" lol

 

[Peelz]

I don't dis-agree with your points. There are a lot of solutions for these problems. I know people that live in apartments with Teslas. One pays for a garage so he has his power. Another lives on the bottom floor and runs a power cord out to her car. Several just charge up for free at their works, and the rest charge up once a week at a SuperCharger. As they become more popular, it will be common to see the chargers like gas pumps, again no different than ICE.

"With the average age of a car on the road approaching 15 years now, a battery that's warranties for 6 or 7 years doesn't really do a whole lot for those used buyers." - You don't get an engine warranty either. Companies will offer warranties, people will make after-market replacement batteries for ones that need to be replaced. The risk here will be no different than a used ICE.

The movement won't fail because the car is so much better. Not sure if you have driven an electric vehicle, but it blows away driving an ICE. The experience isn't even close. The only ones that will disagrees are the minority of people who want to be one with the car, and tough luck for them because stick shifts are pretty much gone now too. Though I am curious how those people feel about an electric vehicle with a stick (just read about this yesterday).

I agree with all this. There has been a guy, I believe the head of the christian school in our town of 8000, who would plug his older S into an outlet behind the church every day for years. I would often drive by, as its maybe 5 buildings down... My thinking has evolved over time. From- "that guy is nuts to try that here" to "hmm maybe that KINDA makes sense if he doesnt drive far" to "ohhh charge at home/work and NEVER go to a gas station!?"

now there's the charger directly across the street, and 5 other 8kw public ones. He was just ahead.


I'm a walking contradiction too because i'm also sad about the death of stick shifts. LOL I day dream often of rescuing an old beetle or ghia and doing that EV conversion that leaves the gearbox-a FUN youtube rabbithole for any of you gearheads.

 

[adrianp89]

I agree with all this. There has been a guy, I believe the head of the christian school in our town of 8000, who would plug his older S into an outlet behind the church every day for years. I would often drive by, as its maybe 5 buildings down... My thinking has evolved over time. From- "that guy is nuts to try that here" to "hmm maybe that KINDA makes sense if he doesnt drive far" to "ohhh charge at home and NEVER go to a gas station!?"

now there's the charger directly across the street, and 5 other 8kw public ones. He was just ahead.


I'm a walking contradiction too because i'm also sad about the death of stick shifts. LOL I day dream often of rescuing an old beetle or ghia and doing that EV conversion that leaves the gearbox-a FUN youtube rabbithole for any of you gearheads.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/jeep-magneto-an-ev-with-a-manual-transmission/

 

[Peelz]

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/jeep-magneto-an-ev-with-a-manual-transmission/

umm i missed this.

I'm incredibly intrigued.