Towing with Tesla Model X

[Tyguy]

Looks like the Cybertruck will come with an option for 4 motors. And Elon confirmed what we saw in the video of the gen 2 test mule with rear wheel steering. I’m curious what this means for my tri-motor reservation, which was supposed to be the first production priority.

Tesla will start Cybertruck production at Giga Texas with new Quad-Motor variant

 

[Tyguy]

More vaporware testing

Caught by a drone pilot overflying the Fremont test track. I see lots of subtle changes from the prototype and one giant addition.

• Side view mirrors added.
• Bumpers changed, likely for compliance and impact.
• No door handles.
• Vault configuration is different with more of an overhang where it meets the cab, and the interior doesn’t reflect like stainless steel. Maybe polymer or a spray-on coating?
• Different wheels and tires.
• Overall top profile has changed, shifting the peak more forward.
• Curved windshield.
• More rounded front end.
• Shorter frunk hood.
• New headlights.
• Rear gate is thinner and less angled.
• New dash.
• New rocker panels.

Oh, and that freakin’ GIANT windshield wiper arm is new. I may have to mount an off-road jack or AR15 on the other side of the windshield to balance that thing out (kidding....calm down). There’s been a lot of speculation about how the wiper would look with such a huge windshield and I don’t think anyone predicted a design like we see in the test mule. When the video hit YouTube yesterday and media picked it up, Elon made a comment he’s not a fan of the wiper.

I’m looking forward to towing with this beast. First thing will be a 0-60 test at 5000 feet altitude with the boat attached.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Motortrend has named the Rivian R1T as their 2022 Truck of the Year.

Jim

 

[2kwik4u]

More vaporware testing

Yea yea yea......I deserved that

I'll concede it's less vaporware than I had previously postulated. While I don't follow Tesla nearly as close as others, this is about the first testing I've seen of it other than some publicity appearances on Jay Lenos Garage, and a few other outlets. Tesla's still over 2yrs out from when Elon unveiled it on stage, and we've seen far far less from Tesla on it's development than we've seen from Rivian. Hell even Ford and GM are leaps ahead in marketing (propaganda?) for their trucks.

It is good/interesting to see some actual testing with it, and how some of the regulatory BS is creeping it's way in. Things like side mirrors, and fender covers and such that I'm sure are DOT mandates coming to fruition and borking up the initial over the top styling.

I’m looking forward to towing with this beast. First thing will be a 0-60 test at 5000 feet altitude with the boat attached.

I have no doubt it'll do a fine job. Tesla clearly has their power storage and delivery well sorted. Be curious how they do with towing dynamics, traction control (Rivian's approach to traction control is, IMO, not ideal), and other "truck stuff" type duties.

Interesting times ahead for certain.

 

[2kwik4u]

Motortrend has named the Rivian R1T as their 2022 Truck of the Year.

Jim

Grabbed the image below from ~5:13 in the video. This suspension is amazing to me. It's literally a decades old trailing arm design at it's core, however it has an additional link on the end. To add to the innovations, it's not attached to a solid axle, but rather a lower stabilizing link that is formed to carry the load from the air spring. Then the hydraulics to the damper just in front of it that is attached to the trailing arm giving it the articulation to handle the large suspension height changes. This is brilliant shit IMO.

From an engineering standpoint, I can hear in my head the people standing around the white board hashing out the clean sheet design....."What if we take a trailing arm setup, and add a thing on the end? Does that get us there?".....then that person walks up and starts making some really crude sketches on the board to convey their thoughts. That process is fascinating to me, and the premise that it made it all the way into production has to be REALLY satisfying for that engineer, where they are.

 

[Peelz]

Grabbed the image below from ~5:13 in the video. This suspension is amazing to me. It's literally a decades old trailing arm design at it's core, however it has an additional link on the end. To add to the innovations, it's not attached to a solid axle, but rather a lower stabilizing link that is formed to carry the load from the air spring. Then the hydraulics to the damper just in front of it that is attached to the trailing arm giving it the articulation to handle the large suspension height changes. This is brilliant shit IMO.

From an engineering standpoint, I can hear in my head the people standing around the white board hashing out the clean sheet design....."What if we take a trailing arm setup, and add a thing on the end? Does that get us there?".....then that person walks up and starts making some really crude sketches on the board to convey their thoughts. That process is fascinating to me, and the premise that it made it all the way into production has to be REALLY satisfying for that engineer, where they are.

View attachment 168293

thats a seriously cool design. The kind of stuff you get when you start with that clean slate, and not parts bin. I hope rivian is successful. They certainly put the work in.

While I beleive it to be the most innovative truck out there, I need that charging network to make it the best option for where we live. I'm on their mailing list for test drive events, but haven't as yet came across one that I Could make it to. Im somewhat afraid to do so too. If its anything close to how blown away I was by the Tesla, I think Ill love it and lose the pragmatic attitude I have lol

 

[Tyguy]

This suspension is amazing to me.

Seriously! That's very cool and demonstrates that the Rivian engineers are sweating the small details. I also like how they were able to cover nearly every exposed thing underneath the vehicle, creating a nice, smooth air flow for better efficiency. I do like the Rivian truck and SUV very much and they should both sell well. Demand won't be an issue.

The EV revolution is such an amazing opportunity for established American makes and new American startups to undue decades of market share losses to Japanese and Korean competitors. I hope they all make the most of it. I worked for a company that purchased and integrated many other companies in my years there, and every time I worked with those purchased companies I told them the same thing: "You can choose to fight change and lose, or find opportunity amidst change and thrive."

 

[Tyguy]

Yea yea yea......I deserved that

Ha! You're a great sport, 2kwik4u. I appreciate you taking the jab in the fun spirit it was intended. And thanks for sharing all the Rivian information, which I'm following with interest. I just read they made their first non-employee delivery recently.

 

[2kwik4u]

Ha! You're a great sport, 2kwik4u. I appreciate you taking the jab in the fun spirit it was intended. And thanks for sharing all the Rivian information, which I'm following with interest. I just read they made their first non-employee delivery recently.

Yea, I'm not sure if it was the first non employee, but at least the first online/internet confirmed non employee delivery. Guys has a couple of threads over in the Rivian subreddit. It's an El Cap Granite with Black wheels. Gorgeous color combo.

I'm also really excited to see the resurgence of American Brands. Say what you will about the styling/capability/features of any of these new EVs, but you can't deny the increased demand for domestic made (and headquartered) vehicles!

 

[BlkGS]

Honestly, a lot of this stuff looks like "let's do something slightly different to get IP and let our fan base go on about how it must be better.". That's not innovation to me.

Innovating would be using electromagnets instead of springs, or adding a roof made of solar cells to constantly charge it. That sounds more like the sort of fake IP garbage you do to sell your insane valuation to venture capitalists that just want to cash out at an IPO based on hype.

 

[adrianp89]

Honestly, a lot of this stuff looks like "let's do something slightly different to get IP and let our fan base go on about how it must be better.". That's not innovation to me.

Innovating would be using electromagnets instead of springs, or adding a roof made of solar cells to constantly charge it. That sounds more like the sort of fake IP garbage you do to sell your insane valuation to venture capitalists that just want to cash out at an IPO based on hype.

innovations comes in many forms. The innovation your referring to is game changing and very rare for any industry. (I.e. the iPhone).

 

[2kwik4u]

innovations comes in many forms. The innovation your referring to is game changing and very rare for any industry. (I.e. the iPhone).

Agreed.
Also comes with a LOT of risk in manufacturing/delivery/implementation/performance/warranty. A startup is already chocked full of risk, have to be selective on how far out on that limb you climb.

Honestly, a lot of this stuff looks like "let's do something slightly different to get IP and let our fan base go on about how it must be better.". That's not innovation to me.

What you're talking about is revolutionary change. What I'm talking about is evolutionary change.

Innovation is just the application of ideas into a new/better product. Comes in many forms. I chair the Design for Automation committee in my company. The guys that show up in that room once a month and spend hours talking about "wild and crazy" ideas often don't reinvent the wheel. We do make sizeable, recognizable, and measurable changes to existing designs. I consider all of us to be innovators in that capacity.

Innovating would be using electromagnets instead of springs, or adding a roof made of solar cells to constantly charge it. That sounds more like the sort of fake IP garbage you do to sell your insane valuation to venture capitalists that just want to cash out at an IPO based on hype.

I'm confused on this statement after reading the first. You first says that small incremental changes to something we've seen before, but used slightly differently isn't innovation, it's just hype for fanboys. Then the second statement says real innovation is something like electro-mag suspension, or rooftop solar.......which you then continue to say is just hype for IPO valuations. So is electro-mag suspension real innovation, or just "do something different for the fanboys"?!?!

You seem mad, and I'm not really certain I get a good read on why.

 

[BlkGS]

innovations comes in many forms. The innovation your referring to is game changing and very rare for any industry. (I.e. the iPhone).

IPhone wasn't really an innovation outside of marketing. There were touchscreen phones smartphones, etc before that. Where they innovated was making them idiot proof, and making them a luxury item that was seen as a status symbol. Everything else had been done by blackberry, palm, Samsung, etc before them, outside of the marketing.

I'd say smart watches were an actual innovation. They were, and still are, dumb innovations in my eyes, but that idea was more innovative.

The last innovation we've seen in auto's was the DSG transmission. Not that this is a bad thing, they've refined the general structure for 100 years and figured most everything out. What they do now is gimmicks or trade offs. Infiniti has a few variable compression engines and Mazda has its insanely high compression ones that add some efficiency at the expense of longevity.

The automakers for all their money and smart people are missing big changes. Inflation and other factors are driving new car buyers into used ones as the age of the average car on the road is skyrocketing (even pre pandemic), yet they're investing in things that reduce lifespan and reliability. Just not sound business planning IMO. I know that right now the current admin and big money types want to hear all electric, but the reality is that the last guys to make Ice are going to be the ones who scoop up huge market share, especially if they're proven models with long term track records of reliability. You only need to look at the impressive sales of chargers, Durango, gx460, 4runner, etc to see that a robust platform with a history of proven reliability will sell. You don't need crazy new power trains, you need vehicles people trust to last forever.

 

[BlkGS]

Agreed.
Also comes with a LOT of risk in manufacturing/delivery/implementation/performance/warranty. A startup is already chocked full of risk, have to be selective on how far out on that limb you climb.


What you're talking about is revolutionary change. What I'm talking about is evolutionary change.

Innovation is just the application of ideas into a new/better product. Comes in many forms. I chair the Design for Automation committee in my company. The guys that show up in that room once a month and spend hours talking about "wild and crazy" ideas often don't reinvent the wheel. We do make sizeable, recognizable, and measurable changes to existing designs. I consider all of us to be innovators in that capacity.


I'm confused on this statement after reading the first. You first says that small incremental changes to something we've seen before, but used slightly differently isn't innovation, it's just hype for fanboys. Then the second statement says real innovation is something like electro-mag suspension, or rooftop solar.......which you then continue to say is just hype for IPO valuations. So is electro-mag suspension real innovation, or just "do something different for the fanboys"?!?!

You seem mad, and I'm not really certain I get a good read on why.

Not mad at all, just don't consider incremental changes to be innovation. They're incremental changes. If you were to remove the springs from a vehicle and have it ride on a set of electromagnets that float it above the running gear, that would be innovation. Not saying it's a particularly easy thing to do, or even that it would work well, but it'd be innovative. BMW's digitally actuated valves are innovation.

You're saying that adding an additional piece to an age old design is innovation and clean whiteboard thinking. That's like saying a composite leaf spring is innovation, because they're usually steel. Or that adding a 3rd wiper blade is innovative because 2 is standard.

What I'm saying is a lot of "tech" darlings do slight changes to existing designs to have IP. It makes them seem more valuable than they are because they have patents on pointless designs.

 

[Peelz]

The last innovation we've seen in auto's was the DSG transmission. Not that this is a bad thing, they've refined the general structure for 100 years and figured most everything out. What they do now is gimmicks or trade offs. Infiniti has a few variable compression engines and Mazda has its insanely high compression ones that add some efficiency at the expense of longevity.

The automakers for all their money and smart people are missing big changes. Inflation and other factors are driving new car buyers into used ones as the age of the average car on the road is skyrocketing (even pre pandemic), yet they're investing in things that reduce lifespan and reliability. Just not sound business planning IMO. I know that right now the current admin and big money types want to hear all electric, but the reality is that the last guys to make Ice are going to be the ones who scoop up huge market share, especially if they're proven models with long term track records of reliability. You only need to look at the impressive sales of chargers, Durango, gx460, 4runner, etc to see that a robust platform with a history of proven reliability will sell. You don't need crazy new power trains, you need vehicles people trust to last forever.

yes this.

Hadn't bought a NEW car since 2005. I balked when looking at the four runner, which is what we wanted. I appreciate the robust proven platform, not gimmicks. Still surprised at myself for buying the Tesla, being such a grumpy old bastard as far as cars go lol for all the reasons you posted. "Put some new switches on the dash of a cheaper car, charge more for it" seemed to be the theme for about a decade. I guess because the Model Y was SO different, and worked so well, that changed my mind.

Our last car was a used 2012 Nissan Pathfinder wanted it because it was the final year of the actual truck chassis before becoming an AWD minivan. Still have it, its MY commuter now. has 164k on it. Ill keep it indefinitely, pass on to the younger boy.

I think we stopped improving cars as a whole REALLY in the late 90's early 2000's. I suppose Some manufacturers did some things, like the DSG and the CVT(i had high hopes for CVT's) but... not much has changed that moved the needle overall. Financial and legal gamble with your brand I suppose.

 

[BlkGS]

yes this.

Hadn't bought a NEW car since 2005. I balked when looking at the four runner, which is what we wanted. I appreciate the robust proven platform, not gimmicks. Still surprised at myself for buying the Tesla, being such a grumpy old bastard as far as cars go lol for all the reasons you posted. "Put some new switches on the dash of a cheaper car, charge more for it" seemed to be the theme for about a decade. I guess because the Model Y was SO different, and worked so well, that changed my mind.

Our last car was a used 2012 Nissan Pathfinder wanted it because it was the final year of the actual truck chassis before becoming an AWD minivan. Still have it, its MY commuter now. has 164k on it. Ill keep it indefinitely, pass on to the younger boy.

I think we stopped improving cars as a whole REALLY in the late 90's early 2000's. I suppose Some manufacturers did some things, like the DSG and the CVT(i had high hopes for CVT's) but... not much has changed that moved the needle overall. Financial and legal gamble with your brand I suppose.

The money those pathfinder go for is sickening too. I briefly looked for a v8 powered one as a daily like 2 years ago, and they were expensive af even then. Even the v6 models were super expensive, but there's tons of them with huge mileage on them for sale. Really robust and well built vehicles that do it all.

The newest pathfinder looks to have fixed some of the mistakes of the last gen, but not nearly as great as the 2010ish ones were.

Everyone wants to go green and and save the planet, but you know what's better than trading your car in on a new one for that? Building cars that are robust, reliable, and fixable. If you only have to replace some suspension parts and things that are wear items like that, you can avoid the pollution of building a lot of vehicles.

 

[2kwik4u]

Everyone wants to go green and and save the planet, but you know what's better than trading your car in on a new one for that? Building cars that are robust, reliable, and fixable. If you only have to replace some suspension parts and things that are wear items like that, you can avoid the pollution of building a lot of vehicles.

The problem with that.......Nobody buys them. The sales don't support highly engineered and robust vehicles. Because they cost a ton up front, are complicated to fix when they do break, and the highly engineered parts are expensive. Audi/BMW/Mercedes all make highly engineered vehicles that will lost for decades if well taken care of......In the same breathe you'll hear "Don't buy a German car they're maintenance nightmares". What one of the most Robust tow vehicles you can get? Toyota Landcruiser, right? $100k entrance fee to that game. I think I read total sales last year was under 10k units.

Point being, car companies develop things that sell, and what the focus groups tell them will sell; so in general, car curmudgens like ourselves have little voice in that arena.

High performance wagons are another excellent example of this same phenomenon. Enthusiasts LOVE sport wagons. LOVE THEM. But they don't sell, so when they are made, they only last a model year or two.

What JQPublic wants is something cheap to purchase, lasts a few years, requires relatively low maintenance, and then to trade again in a decade. They don't care if it will go 500k miles, it needs to last to 150k miles and they'll dump it for something else new and shiny with the latest version of Apple CarPlay, or whatever the hot new tech is. SO, that's what we see in the market. Cheap, somewhat disposable, vehicles that are made to be inexpensive to manufacture, not "lifetime purchase" level vehicles. AND, It's always been this way, the cycle just gets longer because we're better at making things in general. Used to be "trade at 60k before problems hit", now it's trade at 150k.

 

[BlkGS]

The problem with that.......Nobody buys them. The sales don't support highly engineered and robust vehicles. Because they cost a ton up front, are complicated to fix when they do break, and the highly engineered parts are expensive. Audi/BMW/Mercedes all make highly engineered vehicles that will lost for decades if well taken care of......In the same breathe you'll hear "Don't buy a German car they're maintenance nightmares". What one of the most Robust tow vehicles you can get? Toyota Landcruiser, right? $100k entrance fee to that game. I think I read total sales last year was under 10k units.

Point being, car companies develop things that sell, and what the focus groups tell them will sell; so in general, car curmudgens like ourselves have little voice in that arena.

High performance wagons are another excellent example of this same phenomenon. Enthusiasts LOVE sport wagons. LOVE THEM. But they don't sell, so when they are made, they only last a model year or two.

What JQPublic wants is something cheap to purchase, lasts a few years, requires relatively low maintenance, and then to trade again in a decade. They don't care if it will go 500k miles, it needs to last to 150k miles and they'll dump it for something else new and shiny with the latest version of Apple CarPlay, or whatever the hot new tech is. SO, that's what we see in the market. Cheap, somewhat disposable, vehicles that are made to be inexpensive to manufacture, not "lifetime purchase" level vehicles. AND, It's always been this way, the cycle just gets longer because we're better at making things in general. Used to be "trade at 60k before problems hit", now it's trade at 150k.

Sales of Tahoe and suburban disagree. Lexus gx460 is the top selling luxury suv right now. Certainly, the "lease a new car every 3 years to flex" crowd doesn't care, but there are more and more consumers every day buying robust vehicles. Used vehicles that are known for their robustness have gone insane in pricing, often more than they are new. Those v8 pathfinder I was talking about? Find a clean lower mile one and it's in the 30s. A brand new pathfinder of a similar equipment level to that would be in the 30s.

The issue is you're thinking of German cars as well engineered. German cars have reputations for catastrophic failures, critical components like rod bearings being wear items, subframe failures, and general unreliability. They are some of the worst in pushing things that don't last as long for the sake of new tech. Look at Mercedes, the old e55 supercharged made 500hp nearly 20 years ago, and had few to no real failure points. The e63 of today is like, 600hp out of a turbo v8, and isn't known for being particularly reliable. Is that progress? I wouldn't say so.

Sport wagons, yeah they're neat, but honestly their use case is limited. They can't tow like a sport suv, and are typically not that much lighter. They may sit lower and drive better, but let's be real, an srt Durango or jeep does more than can be used on the street. My TBSS with decent rubber can do things that would be considered reckless on public streets., let alone something newer with a stiffer chassis and frame...

 

[2kwik4u]

Doug Demuro just dropped his Hummer review!

I'm surprised by his Doug Score on this one!

 

[2kwik4u]

Doug Demuro just dropped his Hummer review!

I'm surprised by his Doug Score on this one!

Replying to my own post.....I'm super classy this morning

Couple of thoughts now that I've watched the whole video and had a moment to digest.

Cost: Holy crap, over $100k. I'm out. I simply can't afford it. $80k for a Rivian is honestly a stretch for me, and almost 2x more than I've paid for any vehicle in my life. Unless I hit some big stock options, or have some other windfall level money, I'm out. That is not to say I don't think it's worth it, it is, I just can't play at that level yet.

Tech: Only thing that really jumps out at me here are the graphics on the screens. They're more sizzle than steak though. The rest looks pretty "par for the course" at this level. Crab walk is an interesting take on rear wheel steering, although I'm not a big off road guy, so I have no idea if it's actually valuable or not. Air suspension, off road modes, etc. It's all more of the same. I'm really really hoping that GMC decides to throw the SuperCruise options into the Hummer. GM has, what is IMO, the best driver aids available at this point.....based solely on revviews I've seen online. I've not driven any of the really advanced stuff, so take that for what it's worth.

Styling: I find it really interesting that GM took a similar route as Tesla. The styling here is just over the top with big muscular lines. It's less of a departure from "normal" trucks, but still very much in your face. It tracks for the Hummer brand, but I personally, don't think it's that great. I do love all the little "H"'s everywhere, but the moon motif is a stretch for me. It's neat, but meh.

Tow Rating of 7,500lbs is LOW for this segment IMO. My Q7 is rated at 7,700lbs and is (or well feels) 1/2 this size. I'm curious what part of the total package holds it back. It's not curb weight, so handling shouldn't be an issue. It has 1k hp, so it shouldn't have an acceleration issue. Cooling maybe? I have no idea why, but it's low.

I do really really love the (4) T-Tops setup on the roof. I'm wildly disappointed in the Rivians Non-openable roof. With the tops off, and the rear window down, I think that will make for an EXCELLENT summer cruiser. If it's not raining/snowing, I have my sunroof open. It was 36degF this morning on the way in, and I had the roof open, even with the new roof rack noise. I LOVE an open top on a vehicle, and the Hummer has me covered there.

I also really really like the front trunk on the Hummer. Nice rubber/plastic lined space to put all kinds of "stuff" in there. And it has the lower entry height that a front trunk should have. Another miss on Rivians part IMO. I get why Rivian did it (styling would be largely interrupted by those lines), but I like the lower entry better. Honestly the Lightning has it all over these other two in this area. The Ford front trunk is monstrous and easy to get to.

Anywho.....Happy Friday everyone!