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Towing with Tesla Model X

2kwik4u

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Another interesting tidbit from this weekend. Found this EV charger just hanging out at the local public parking lot in downtown New Albany, IN. best I can tell it's free-fifty-free to use. There was this Mach-E sitting there (at 100% SoC according to the little LEDs in the charging port area) for well over 4hrs that we were parked there.

1637608488059.png

Best I can tell it's some initiative for free EV charging in Indiana. You can see my Q7 in the background there.
1637608607966.png

Sooo.....What is the etiquette if I have an EV, roll up to this spot and someone else is there and plugged in? Wait 2hrs and unplug them? Check the SoC on the other vehicle and if at 100% unplug them? Don't touch someone elses car and not get free energy? I'm somewhat of the opinion that I won't touch someone elses car, but does that still apply here? I know on a boat dock I'll tie/untie another boat to get mine free from the same cleat at a crowded location, but that's a little different I think. Any feedback?
 

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I get it. Just not immediately intuitive for us petrol heads that are used to a constant "range per unit time" addition.

I think I've asked this before, but do you build in a reserve on range for each leg of a long trip? My level of "boy scout" varies based on where I'm at and what I'm doing. I'm curious how having an EV will affect that mentality for me. I'm also doing some thought experiments on things like "how often have I needed that extra range I've been planning for?" and things like that.
I trust my nav software. And charge just what it tells me to. Usually I also have destination charging so I can charge when I get wherever I'm going. Worst case scenario I plug in to a standard outlet and trickle charge.

Regarding your next question. I hate it when other EVs hog a charging station with no regards to others. But I don't don't anything about it. I prefer not to touch another one's property. In Tesla world, you will be charged money if you stay plugged ok after fully charged.

Now. The bastards who park at a charging station but are not even plugged in? Those I just pray to the thunder gods that they may spontaneously combust.
 

thefortunes

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I get it. Just not immediately intuitive for us petrol heads that are used to a constant "range per unit time" addition.

I think I've asked this before, but do you build in a reserve on range for each leg of a long trip? My level of "boy scout" varies based on where I'm at and what I'm doing. I'm curious how having an EV will affect that mentality for me. I'm also doing some thought experiments on things like "how often have I needed that extra range I've been planning for?" and things like that.
The Tesla nav is very conservative and likes you to arrive with 20% SoC. There are other onboard tools that you can use also.

Since I am comfortable with the ability to adjust range on the fly I, more often than not, arrive between 2-10% (6-32 miles, which is a lot). That allows me to charge faster and leave earlier. Probably saves me 30-60 minutes on a 1000 mile drive.

I've probably posted this before, but ABetterRoutePlanner.com is a decent route planner that let's you input all kinds of variables (I use 5% arrival SoC, for example) and typically follow its plan vs Tesla's.

Sooo.....What is the etiquette if I have an EV, roll up to this spot and someone else is there and plugged in? Wait 2hrs and unplug them? Check the SoC on the other vehicle and if at 100% unplug them? Don't touch someone elses car and not get free energy? I'm somewhat of the opinion that I won't touch someone elses car, but does that still apply here? I know on a boat dock I'll tie/untie another boat to get mine free from the same cleat at a crowded location, but that's a little different I think. Any feedback?
Charging etiquette isn't even agreed upon by Tesla owners, but my opinion (shared by most) is that you NEVER touch/unplug another car. Most ports lock anyway, so you probably couldn't have unplugged him. Also, since there is no standard it may not be possible (depending on the car) to tell if they are still charging.

In a situation like the one you saw, the owner should have left a note with contact info. You could call/text, the owner could remotely release the charge cable (it is most likely locked) and then you would be good to go (assuming the cable would reach to the next space).

Charging spots should be used in a similar manner as gas stations - fill up (or get what you need) and vacate the space.
 

adrianp89

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Etiquette should be same as boat docks. Get in and out as quickly as possible. That being said it is not always possible or realistic. When at Disney, I am not hiking out of the park to move my car a mile away. If you wanted that spot you should have gotten there earlier than the rest of us. Un-doing a boat tied to same cleat to get your free and re-doing it for them is 100% different.
 

2kwik4u

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The Tesla nav is very conservative and likes you to arrive with 20% SoC. There are other onboard tools that you can use also.

Since I am comfortable with the ability to adjust range on the fly I, more often than not, arrive between 2-10% (6-32 miles, which is a lot). That allows me to charge faster and leave earlier. Probably saves me 30-60 minutes on a 1000 mile drive.

I've probably posted this before, but ABetterRoutePlanner.com is a decent route planner that let's you input all kinds of variables (I use 5% arrival SoC, for example) and typically follow its plan vs Tesla's.



Charging etiquette isn't even agreed upon by Tesla owners, but my opinion (shared by most) is that you NEVER touch/unplug another car. Most ports lock anyway, so you probably couldn't have unplugged him. Also, since there is no standard it may not be possible (depending on the car) to tell if they are still charging.

In a situation like the one you saw, the owner should have left a note with contact info. You could call/text, the owner could remotely release the charge cable (it is most likely locked) and then you would be good to go (assuming the cable would reach to the next space).

Charging spots should be used in a similar manner as gas stations - fill up (or get what you need) and vacate the space.
I've been messing with ABRP to get an idea of usable range from a Rivian while towing. I think I can get my two most local lakes on a Friday night after a commute. It'll be close, but it's possible. The next two closest lakes will have to be a weekend and a start with 100% to get home, OR, has to be an overnight where I can at least pickup 5-10% from a 110V outlet. Beyond those I'm going to be at the mercy of public charging stations along the way. Not a big ordeal, just something to plan for.

Buddy and I were talking the other night.......Is there not a business case to put some chargers in alongside existing fuel infrastructure? There are thousands of little "mom and pop" type convenience stores that already exist out in the wild in rather rural areas. We were thinking there would be a good business case for setting up chargers in these locations. Perhaps offer a "consultancy" to get them installed, by working with local power companies, business owners, and providing them the information they need to get them setup and running. Any idea if that is already a thing? Any thoughts on that? Seems like a budding business to be had there.
 

Peelz

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there needs to be a good system for sharing in Metro areas. I thought of having QR code stickers you scan and it sends a GTFO text to the owner who is parked in the spot. I wondered if we were the A-hole once when we used a destination charger at a hotel in rural NE. But there were no EV's in sight. We left it charging, just got up and unplugged when I noticed it was close. I Also thought of having multiple charge cables to a station, and the box can just alternate as one gets done...

Tesla's solution is elegant as well. You just keep getting charged extra fees if you leave your car at 100.

To be fair, its usually ICE cars parked in EV charging spots. But this happens too, and will require better solutions as more people adopt EV's. THis particular issue plays into much of why i would only consider Tesla FOR NOW.
 

Jim_in_Delaware

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Buddy and I were talking the other night.......Is there not a business case to put some chargers in alongside existing fuel infrastructure? There are thousands of little "mom and pop" type convenience stores that already exist out in the wild in rather rural areas. We were thinking there would be a good business case for setting up chargers in these locations. Perhaps offer a "consultancy" to get them installed, by working with local power companies, business owners, and providing them the information they need to get them setup and running. Any idea if that is already a thing? Any thoughts on that? Seems like a budding business to be had there.
The EV market is still relatively small. This all could change, however, in the next 4 - 5 years. With the plethora of new electric vehicles coming to the marketplace in the next couple of years, decent incentives could certainly make EV purchases more mainstream. A higher demand for charging stations would definitely lead to more charging stations being installed, good old basic economics.

Jim
 

Peelz

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Buddy and I were talking the other night.......Is there not a business case to put some chargers in alongside existing fuel infrastructure? There are thousands of little "mom and pop" type convenience stores that already exist out in the wild in rather rural areas. We were thinking there would be a good business case for setting up chargers in these locations. Perhaps offer a "consultancy" to get them installed, by working with local power companies, business owners, and providing them the information they need to get them setup and running. Any idea if that is already a thing? Any thoughts on that? Seems like a budding business to be had there.
On our travels we find the Tesla chargers most often in gas station lots. Second most often Grocery store lots, 3rd, hotel lots. 4th-near starbucks in a mini-mall setting(genius)

As far as putting them in, you have to become a "partner" The store gives Tesla the land, and freedom to build the station, Tesla does the rest, builds, pays for electricity install and cost, and maintenance. I had contacted HyVee management about doing a grand opening event when the charger opened across from my work. Interestingly, the permit before they built it, the permit was public, and issued to hyvee stores, being its THEIR land. Installed RIGHT behind their hyvee gas station.

He said The kickback is the business, and it works very well. I know that pretty much every time we stop we check out the place that hosts it, ans spend at least a little $.
 
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thefortunes

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Etiquette should be same as boat docks. Get in and out as quickly as possible. That being said it is not always possible or realistic. When at Disney, I am not hiking out of the park to move my car a mile away. If you wanted that spot you should have gotten there earlier than the rest of us. Un-doing a boat tied to same cleat to get your free and re-doing it for them is 100% different.
The Disney example is when you leave a note/card and can remotely unlock the port if contacted (assumes there is another spot the cable can reach).
 

Peelz

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The Disney example is when you leave a note/card and can remotely unlock the port if contacted (assumes there is another spot the cable can reach).
really?

thats pretty excellent.
 

adrianp89

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The Disney example is when you leave a note/card and can remotely unlock the port if contacted (assumes there is another spot the cable can reach).
4 spots, 4 cables. The idea seems good in practice, but most places it’s not realistic. Supercharger cords are like 4 ft lol
 

thefortunes

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4 spots, 4 cables. The idea seems good in practice, but most places it’s not realistic. Supercharger cords are like 4 ft lol
Yep, in that case I would probably (assuming I needed the charge and used it in the first place) move the car over lunch (also assumes I was there for multiple days and didn't mind killing the 30 minutes to go to/from the car).

I may be in the minority, but I've been on the other end of the stick (needing a charge and being locked out by ICE or EVs not charging) so I tend to be overly conscious of others.

Definitely doesn't work at SuC, but those SHOULD NEVER be overstayed (remembering the idiots who were tying up all the spots at 2am when I arrived at one and couldn't charge :rage:).
 

2kwik4u

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Boy, Hummer had completely dropped off my radar. Looks like they're set to make some deliveries right on the heels of Rivian. Hard to dispute the manufacturing capability and capacity of the big 3.

Hopefully these fare a shade better than the Bolt and it's issues with battery fires.

 

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First article I've seen from the Rivian tow test:

Rivian R1T's first real-world towing test shows 62% range loss

Not exactly what I was hoping to see, but there could be other factors at play like high speed and cold temps. I don't have Instagram and haven't been following the posts to know the conditions.

I'm definitely feeling good about opting for the tri-motor Cybertruck with the longest range available.
 

2kwik4u

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First article I've seen from the Rivian tow test:

Rivian R1T's first real-world towing test shows 62% range loss

Not exactly what I was hoping to see, but there could be other factors at play like high speed and cold temps. I don't have Instagram and haven't been following the posts to know the conditions.

I'm definitely feeling good about opting for the tri-motor Cybertruck with the longest range available.
I saw that post on the Rivian Forums yesterday. I think that single data point isn't telling the whole story here.

Using the remaining range and the percent battery remaining from that picture, everyone is estimating around 1,200Wh/mi of energy usage.

I did some quick checks on his other legs, and making a few assumptions, got to around 870Wh/mi of energy usage. I took the number of stops he made. The distance traveled (because Instagram tags your location, and google can help you find the chargers, then determine the route), and combined that with his comments of most often charging from 30% to 80%, and figured a miles per charge, then assumed 50% of the battery was used for each leg, and came to that 870Wh/mi figure. That was also across Illinois which is pancake flat. He's out west now, towing a bit faster, and has elevation changes to deal with.......If I assume he didn't post 1 charge, that jumps to 1,000Wh/mi, and didn't post 2 charges then to 1,330Wh/mi. The timing, distance, and locations all correlate to having every charge posted, so I'm fairly confident in that distance/charge. Likewise, we can vary the percentage used from 40% to 60% (+/- 10%) and get a similar range of power consumption.

I figure he's probably around that 1kWh/mi usage on average. Sure would be nice if he would post those numbers and let us all come to our own conclusions on the math.

He posted the weights from a Travel America stop at one point. He's a shade over 14.2k lbs loaded, with the trailer at 5.2k lbs (probably closer to 6k lbs when you consider the combined weight of the truck, and compare it to Edmunds review weight. He's a little tongue heavy IMO). I would wager his trailer is slightly less aero than a boat with a cover on, however it's probably better than a travel trailer based on frontal area alone.

I think these numbers track pretty well with what we have seen from people towing with the eTron and the ModelX. That family that is towing the travel trailer across Kansas with a ModelX has shown usage up into the 1,400Wh/mi range, but more often is a bit lower without a headwind and using lower speeds. They're really hamstrung by the smaller batter pack in the ModelX as well. Towing range for them is often in the double digits accounting for reserve. Same with the eTron towing that trailer as a publicity event. They were just under 1,000Whr/mi over the course of several days of towing. OutOfSpec Reviews did a towing test with an eTron, and I think his usage was around 1.1mi/kWh (910Wh/mi), and he was towing a smart car, parked backwards on an open trailer.

I don't think there is any earth shattering breakthrough in range knowledge here. It's probably a little higher than we expected, but honestly not significantly so. Anyone that wants to tow long distance, or on a regular basis should really hold out for the 180kWh pack if going with a Rivian. No idea what the Hummer will do (it's shaped like a brick so I have my suspicions). Cybertruck is vaporware as best I can tell at this point. I think the Lightning has a strong chance of doing well in the towing area based on shape and pack size alone.

Another thought on towing efficiency. Isn't it an interesting idea that we are now making suggestions to essentially "get a bigger fuel tank" if you want to tow, rather than get a more efficient engine. By comparison the amount of energy needed to support a 13mpg gas engine while towing is just under 2,600Wh/mi. OVER double the energy usage of an EV. Say what you want about the carbon footprint of creating/recycling/destroying batteries, and the concerns of power grid handling the extra demand. The simple fact of using less than HALF of the energy to get the same job done is a step in the right direction. Whether that energy is dug up, refined, transported and dispensed, or generated from the tides in the ocean, transmitted and dispensed, it's pretty clear that the simple fact we are fundamentally using LESS energy is a big deal IMO.

There are a couple things we've learned about the truck that I'm not super keen on though. I asked him yesterday how the driver aides did while towing. Apparently it's back to regular old cruise control when towing. No lane keep assist, and no adaptive cruise. Seems like a miss for Rivian there honestly. I've also watched DeMuro's review and the backup camera doesn't point at the trailer hitch. My wifes traverse couldn't see the hitch in the rear view camera, and it was "back to the olden days" when we hooked up with it. In/Out of the drivers seat about 6 times to get it just right. Monster sized oversight if that is really the case IMO. I'm really curious how those cupholders and console are holding up to road trip abuse. I'm also interested to see how the dash looks at night with the displays dimmed. Does the tonneau cover leak at all, or can that be considered dry space? I have so many questions on how it works as a daily driver.........Guess I just have to be patient.
 

adrianp89

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Did a 300 mile round trip drive in the Tesla. We charged probably a bit more than we needed to but ended up back with around 30%. Long-distance driving in an EV is seeming less useful. I do not care about the 15-20 minute stops. The second stop we actually found another new Mexican place that was really good. Anyways Supercharging cost us about $30.... we could have made the trip in a car that gets 32mpg for the same cost with zero stops. Still cheaper than my truck, and we did not set our selves up for success on this trip, but was eye opening for me.
 

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Holy moley. The camera not pointing at the hitch is madness. That seems like a small thing but its a huge deal for a potential tow vehicle.
 

tabbibus

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Did a 300 mile round trip drive in the Tesla. We charged probably a bit more than we needed to but ended up back with around 30%. Long-distance driving in an EV is seeming less useful. I do not care about the 15-20 minute stops. The second stop we actually found another new Mexican place that was really good. Anyways Supercharging cost us about $30.... we could have made the trip in a car that gets 32mpg for the same cost with zero stops. Still cheaper than my truck, and we did not set our selves up for success on this trip, but was eye opening for me.
Interesting point about cost. That is something that I and many early adopters never think about since we get free supercharging! I'll be taking my older regular range Model S to Disney (from Atlanta) in about 2 months. About 460 miles. I've done this before and much prefer it over driving my Expedition.
 

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Interesting point about cost. That is something that I and many early adopters never think about since we get free supercharging! I'll be taking my older regular range Model S to Disney (from Atlanta) in about 2 months. About 460 miles. I've done this before and much prefer it over driving my Expedition.
Get there early for VIP EV parking!

We thought we had free SC miles, guess they expire at 6 months now instead of 1 year. We could have driven the cost/usage down, but a fair comparison to ICE is just getting in the car and going. We forgot to charge to 100% the night before (started at 90%). We kept the air at around 70 degrees with outside in the 50s. Didn't pre-condition the battery either way. I think the killer was the SC was very high usage, not sure if rates were higher. We had to wait about 5 minutes to get a spot (first time I had to wait).
 

tabbibus

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Get there early for VIP EV parking!

We thought we had free SC miles, guess they expire at 6 months now instead of 1 year. We could have driven the cost/usage down, but a fair comparison to ICE is just getting in the car and going. We forgot to charge to 100% the night before (started at 90%). We kept the air at around 70 degrees with outside in the 50s. Didn't pre-condition the battery either way. I think the killer was the SC was very high usage, not sure if rates were higher. We had to wait about 5 minutes to get a spot (first time I had to wait).
Interesting. I hope I don't have to wait on my trip! On my older tesla if I full charge I'm only looking at about 260 miles. I mapped it out and nav says I will do 3 stops. I know those SC stops and it shouldn't be too bad
 
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