Towing with Tesla Model X

[2kwik4u]

It's not cynicism, it's reality. You're expecting to cha ge the minds of people up the path of resistance. That has never worked, literally ever. The US is a country that has an obesity epidemic but we keep making food easier to get, and give people more excuses to not be active. This is something that literally will kill you, yet people actively choose the easy path. So expecting people to microcharge their EVs is just silly, and of course this assumes you're going to be places where they BUILD that infrastructure, which we all know is going to be only in major cities.

TTaking the economic factors out, which is insane but we will, the right way to implement micro charging is wirelessly, or even via in ground connectors. You could put them in roadways and microcharge at stop lights, and it'd be nothing to develop a system that would drop down a pair of charging contacts to some powered rails int he ground. Think something like the electric slot cars from back in the day.

BBottom line, EV adoption is going to be directly correlated with how easy it is. If you make it so your car auto charged wirelessly while it's stopped, that's super easy, and it will take off. EV fanatics are looking at it wrong, it's not a "what level of extra annoyance will people take", it's a "how do we make this the easy solution".

100% disagree. You're looking at it from a "This will never work, WTF are we trying standpoint" instead of a "This already works, we just need to tweak it". You're highly cynical about the whole thing. You're beyond thinking it won't work to, arguably, not wanting it to work at all. You disagree with the solution at large, and are not willing to rethink your stance at much of any level.

We're not moving against a path of resistance, we're taking as much resistance away as possible. Make it easy and convenient to charge, and everyone you're already going.

Wireless charging at these rates and voltages is years or decades away. Not to mention the insanely poor efficiency. How is that solution any easier/less expensive than just putting some 240V plugs in all over the place? Same infrastructure, to get the wiring to the places, just a different connection solution. The only difference is that you want it automated instead of having to get out of the car........but I'm saying to put it where you're getting out of the car anyway, so......not sure how much different that really is.

How is plugging in any different than stopping 1-2 times a week at a gas station? What you're telling me is that you wouldn't plug in, for free, when you go into a restaurant to eat. Or when you go into the mall for a couple hours. Or when you're at the grocery store for an hour. It's too much inconvenience to pull a plug over in those situations for free energy to use to get there and back? But instead you're perfectly OK spending 5-10min at a gas station twice a week with no other purpose than to refuel?

BEYOND that line of thinking..........talk to anyone that actually owns one, and they'll tell you that charging at home covers 90+% of their charging need. Found out yesterday one of the guys in our Layout department drives a Bolt. Hasn't messed with the recall because he only EVER plugs in to the 110V in his garage. Hasn't been to a gas station in over a year, and had to add ZERO equipment to his home. One of his biggest likes of the experience is NOT having to stop for fuel. No more smelly pumps, no more fighting lines, none of that. He charges at home each night and that covers his commute and recreation.

 

[BlkGS]

100% disagree. You're looking at it from a "This will never work, WTF are we trying standpoint" instead of a "This already works, we just need to tweak it". You're highly cynical about the whole thing. You're beyond thinking it won't work to, arguably, not wanting it to work at all. You disagree with the solution at large, and are not willing to rethink your stance at much of any level.

We're not moving against a path of resistance, we're taking as much resistance away as possible. Make it easy and convenient to charge, and everyone you're already going.

Wireless charging at these rates and voltages is years or decades away. Not to mention the insanely poor efficiency. How is that solution any easier/less expensive than just putting some 240V plugs in all over the place? Same infrastructure, to get the wiring to the places, just a different connection solution. The only difference is that you want it automated instead of having to get out of the car........but I'm saying to put it where you're getting out of the car anyway, so......not sure how much different that really is.

How is plugging in any different than stopping 1-2 times a week at a gas station? What you're telling me is that you wouldn't plug in, for free, when you go into a restaurant to eat. Or when you go into the mall for a couple hours. Or when you're at the grocery store for an hour. It's too much inconvenience to pull a plug over in those situations for free energy to use to get there and back? But instead you're perfectly OK spending 5-10min at a gas station twice a week with no other purpose than to refuel?

BEYOND that line of thinking..........talk to anyone that actually owns one, and they'll tell you that charging at home covers 90+% of their charging need. Found out yesterday one of the guys in our Layout department drives a Bolt. Hasn't messed with the recall because he only EVER plugs in to the 110V in his garage. Hasn't been to a gas station in over a year, and had to add ZERO equipment to his home. One of his biggest likes of the experience is NOT having to stop for fuel. No more smelly pumps, no more fighting lines, none of that. He charges at home each night and that covers his commute and recreation.

Charging at home once or twice a week is one thing. I'm talking about this idea of ubiquitous microcharging. To make that be easy, it needs to be automatic and/or wireless.

The other perk of that is you could reduce battery size and drive down cost. Hell, you could even leverage a wireless charging system on highways and make an EV lane that would charge as you drive and make a big difference in range.

Also, you said "plug in for free and charge". Who pays for that? Businesses that are already being crushed by inflation? Power companies that are going to have massive new demand to fill? Taxpayers so even if you don't have an EV your taxes will pay for someone driving a 100k car to charge for free? Reality is, charging needs to be paid for BY THE USER. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Here's the issue with the EV industry and EV advocates. They're convinced of their and its superiority, and so are unable to think of how people who aren't worshipping at their altar can be brought in to the fold, and what their concerns and motivations are. EV people are like "no this is better you just have to plan out your road trips to have stops and you just have to adapt to the technology. That's not not how you boost adoption. You boost adoption by making the product work for those consumers.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

100% disagree. You're looking at it from a "This will never work, WTF are we trying standpoint"

It does kinda remind me of:

Jim

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Charging at home once or twice a week is one thing. I'm talking about this idea of ubiquitous microcharging. To make that be easy, it needs to be automatic and/or wireless.

The other perk of that is you could reduce battery size and drive down cost. Hell, you could even leverage a wireless charging system on highways and make an EV lane that would charge as you drive and make a big difference in range.

Also, you said "plug in for free and charge". Who pays for that? Businesses that are already being crushed by inflation? Power companies that are going to have massive new demand to fill? Taxpayers so even if you don't have an EV your taxes will pay for someone driving a 100k car to charge for free? Reality is, charging needs to be paid for BY THE USER. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Here's the issue with the EV industry and EV advocates. They're convinced of their and its superiority, and so are unable to think of how people who aren't worshipping at their altar can be brought in to the fold, and what their concerns and motivations are. EV people are like "no this is better you just have to plan out your road trips to have stops and you just have to adapt to the technology. That's not not how you boost adoption. You boost adoption by making the product work for those consumers.

One just can't lump all EV advocates together, either. Some are superfans, while others are not. My wife and I are in the latter category. We would purchase an EV if we could find a nice 40Kish, compact SUV with decent range (say 300 miles). Price would be the deciding factor for us, as with a large segment of the general public. As we will probably buy our next vehicle in 2024 (to replace her 2007 Jeep Commander), I'm looking to see what the options are in two years.

We don't need free or wireless charging. The Slate video was interesting as I could see a place in the near-term for level 1, 2, and 3 charging. Level 1 would be for long road trips and could be done when we stop for a meal or to take a break from driving. Level 2 would be done, at home, overnight in the garage. Level 3 could be done at destination spots, like maybe a hotel parking lot when we are the beach as the vehicle would sit for a long time with little use.

 

[2kwik4u]

Charging at home once or twice a week is one thing. I'm talking about this idea of ubiquitous microcharging. To make that be easy, it needs to be automatic and/or wireless.

The other perk of that is you could reduce battery size and drive down cost. Hell, you could even leverage a wireless charging system on highways and make an EV lane that would charge as you drive and make a big difference in range.

Have to start somewhere. You have the opinion that "If this doesn't work, then do nothing". I've found in life there are 3 things you can do, the right thing, the wrong thing, and nothing. Do them in that order of importance, however NEVER do the last one. Ubiquitous microcharging is a step in the right direction.

Also, you said "plug in for free and charge". Who pays for that? Businesses that are already being crushed by inflation? Power companies that are going to have massive new demand to fill? Taxpayers so even if you don't have an EV your taxes will pay for someone driving a 100k car to charge for free? Reality is, charging needs to be paid for BY THE USER. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Business will pay for it as a perk or attraction to eat/shop/exist there instead of the competition. Isn't that the whole point of capitalism? Local amusement park has free soft drinks and free sunscreen. Same premise. There are already sponsored plugs available in many locations that are free to charge at. I know of at least 3 within a few miles of the house. I can drive down to the farmers market in my EV, plug in and get free electricity, and drive home at no charge. Electricity is provided by the city, charger was sponsored by the business next door. It's already happening at some small level. Get the word out and I bet it picks up speed.

The electric grid isn't an issue. We've been over this. It's capabilities are still expanding faster than EV adoption rates. According to this article demand would increase by 10-15% if a full 80% of passenger cars were electric.

Myth buster: Electric vehicles will overload the power grid | Virta

Some argue that EVs will make the grid unstable, which could mean hefty investments. Facts and data show why they are wrong.

www.virta.global

Here's the issue with the EV industry and EV advocates. They're convinced of their and its superiority, and so are unable to think of how people who aren't worshipping at their altar can be brought in to the fold, and what their concerns and motivations are.

We also solve all of those problems, lay out the pro's and con's and give structured advice on how those things can easily be overcome. It's as if those that think EV's are the dumbest idea in the history of ever have come to ask experts, get a response, then say "nope, I know better you're full of it" and then continue down the same path instead of objectively analyzing the situation and formulating a new response. I was on your side when this thread started.

EV people are like "no this is better you just have to plan out your road trips to have stops and you just have to adapt to the technology. That's not not how you boost adoption. You boost adoption by making the product work for those consumers.

Advocating, advising, and working to solve problems is almost the exact description of how you boost adoption. Getting someone to understand the paradigm shift that is needed to use a different or new technology requires some movement on both sides.

Ask any boater how good a jetboat is, and you're likely to get similar responses to how bad some think EV's are.

Further........in the details now......So planning your stops isn't what you do now? Just drive along merrily unaware of consumption and distance to next stop and start looking when you get near 20% or so? I'm guessing you've never towed anything a long distance with a small tank then. Or planned a boat trip with multiple fuel stops. Or, well really ever travelled outside the US interstate system. IMO, this is an EXTREMELY privileged outlook. You're so used to being blissfully unaware that this abysmally small inconvenience is blown into a show stopper. It's really no big deal and represents only a small percentage of your travel efforts.

 

[BlkGS]

I think you're dramatically overestimating the margin that places toneat/shop/whatever are operating on now. McDonald's can't even afford to keep minimum wage people working and is replacing them with touchscreen kiosks. Now you expect them to pay for you to charge your car too?

Malls are closing all over the country, retail is dying. To think they're gonna take on another expense to attract EV owners is crazy. There's not enough competitors LEFT for them to need to do that.

And the alternative is, as I've said, electric motors, small batteries, and small generators to extend range. That's probably cleaner than building a bunch of big ass batteries anyways, as you'd only use the ice section during longer trips or "oops I forgot to charge" situations.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Regarding McDonald's and the use of kiosks, I believe that customer preference is as much, or maybe even more, of a driving factor than employee cost savings. If I'm not using the drive-through, I almost always use the kiosk (or app). This way, I don't have to stand in line to order (especially behind that idiot who has no idea what to order) and my custom order is almost always correct (no chance of the cashier misunderstanding my order or me forgetting something when I order). Some areas of retail are thriving, while I agree that others are dying. It was pretty eerie in the last two places we have lived (one in MD and one in PA) where the big malls were dead aside from a couple of anchor stores.

Personally, as a future (?) EV owner, reasonably priced electricity to recharge my vehicle, while I'm out would not be a deterrent to me in purchasing an EV. I could also see that free electricity while I'm out (maybe as part of a hotel rewards program) could also be a worthwhile perk.

Jim

 

[BlkGS]

Regarding McDonald's and the use of kiosks, I believe that customer preference is as much, or maybe even more, of a driving factor than employee cost savings. If I'm not using the drive-through, I almost always use the kiosk (or app). This way, I don't have to stand in line to order (especially behind that idiot who has no idea what to order) and my custom order is almost always correct (no chance of the cashier misunderstanding my order or me forgetting something when I order). Some areas of retail are thriving, while I agree that others are dying. It was pretty eerie in the last two places we have lived (one in MD and one in PA) where the big malls were dead aside from a couple of anchor stores.

Personally, as a future (?) EV owner, reasonably priced electricity to recharge my vehicle, while I'm out would not be a deterrent to me in purchasing an EV. I could also see that free electricity while I'm out (maybe as part of a hotel rewards program) could also be a worthwhile perk.

Jim

Oh I totally agree, the apps and kiosks are fantastic. I will say, we've started having issues with stuff on our app orders not showing up, which really makes ya go "how the F". It's still a huge time saver, and for me, time is my most precious commodity.

 

[adrianp89]

I know @BlkGS really loves Stellantis (sarcasm) but their CEO has some points that I think he would agree with.

Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares: Industry faces battery, raw material shortages amid EV push

Automakers are ready to "pour" EVs on to the market, while they and regulators were lacking vision on all the long-term implications of the transition, the Stellantis CEO says.

www.autonews.com

 

[BlkGS]

The guy does have some good points. Our leadership and the overall auto industry leadership acts like there's no risks or drawbacks.

EVs certainly have a place in our automotive industry, but they can't be the only option, which the auto industry (really due to the crackhead in the financial industry) seem to think is the future. I'm curious who will be the first first automaker to go bust after going all in on EVs, neglecting their ICE lineup, and not getting the volume to sustain themselves on just EVs.

 

[Kevin-yyz]

I have become interested in EV’s fairly recently (equivalent of 6.20 US/gal in Ontario) and have just started reading this thread. I have watched a lot of youtube videos on EV’s and where the industry is headed. I’m sure that some of you have seen this before but if you have any doubt on where the auto industry is headed over the next few years, then you need to watch this video from a guy who, over the last 40+ years, has seen it all within the North American auto industry.

 

[Kevin-yyz]

Battery technology is progressing quickly.

If you watch this, have a long horizon, and see his reasoning then there is TSLA, XPEV, NIO, ARKQ, ARKK (+others ) on the north american markets and GELYF and BYDDY and others on the foreign markets.

If you can’t see the change coming in the next number of years.....

 

[Peelz]

One just can't lump all EV advocates together, either. Some are superfans, while others are not. My wife and I are in the latter category. We would purchase an EV if we could find a nice 40Kish, compact SUV with decent range (say 300 miles). Price would be the deciding factor for us, as with a large segment of the general public. As we will probably buy our next vehicle in 2024 (to replace her 2007 Jeep Commander), I'm looking to see what the options are in two years.

Same. But If you don't need to drive 100's of miles every day, and you have more than one car in your household, pencil me into the "superfan advocate" group lol EV is 100% better in the situations that it works in-period. But, if it doesn't work, it doesn't, I wont try to convince you. Case in point, we JUST needed to get another car. And though I'm all in on EV, I went around and around trying to make the second Tesla make sense. but it just doesn't. YET! so I bought a bitchin ICE car to enjoy on my winter commute and soccer trips until the system improves. (Subaru wrx) I want a solar setup first as well. But that's far off and a whole 'nother convo.

under 40 with ok range and charging network is my "jumping" point for the second car.


As far as the thread goes ... I am still very much anti-EV for towing for MOST situations too, but our local Ford dealer has their first lightning coming in next week (allegedly) and I have first crack! But, its a $90k platinum though, so a no go for me. The sales force needs work on their knowledge too. Guy trying to sell me on $hit that doesnt exist "there's 8 fast chargers in town, you should be ok" Yeah buddy those "fast" chargers are 6-7kw stations at hyvee stores or the college. lmao. I explained the math to him and just got an. "oh I didn't know that" I think the long range battery pack is like 120kw capacity? yeah I don't have 20hrs to kill in a grocery store Sales "manager" then comes over and has a modicum more info, but still not up to our speed. My wife was holding their feet to the fire with their bs too-it was all kindsa sexy! She freaking loves her car, you'll have to pry it from her cold lifeless hands..



And my opinion on tesla well, I'm very much Over Musk and his phony humanitarian save the interwebz act, but they sure make a wonderful car. We're at 26,000 miles in the first year, with an estimated savings of 2 grand, including supercharging on long trips. For the family's main car, we wont be looking back.

 

[BlkGS]

Musk is an interesting guy. It's interesting how many people think he invented PayPal. Truly, he's got a cult of personality going. He's made as much or more on manipulating the crypto market than he has with Tesla shares (though honestly a lot of that value is due to using Tesla to also invest in crypto).

Its funny, 2 years ago the guy could do no wrong to people. He did a great job not saying shit about his beliefs in politics, and people thought the prophet musk would deliver us to the promised land of Mars. But as he has lifted his skirt and shown his political leanings, that support has eroded a good bit.

Personally, I think the guy is a master at playing characters so people play into his hand. A little bit sociopathic, but still proof that mental differences don't have to be handicaps.

 

[Peelz]

Musk is an interesting guy. It's interesting how many people think he invented PayPal. Truly, he's got a cult of personality going. He's made as much or more on manipulating the crypto market than he has with Tesla shares (though honestly a lot of that value is due to using Tesla to also invest in crypto).

Its funny, 2 years ago the guy could do no wrong to people. He did a great job not saying shit about his beliefs in politics, and people thought the prophet musk would deliver us to the promised land of Mars. But as he has lifted his skirt and shown his political leanings, that support has eroded a good bit.

Personally, I think the guy is a master at playing characters so people play into his hand. A little bit sociopathic, but still proof that mental differences don't have to be handicaps.

Also interesting is how many people think he's American and call him patriotic for his internet hijinx. Um, Patriotic to what??? MONEY and attention that's what. Billionaires don't become billionaires by givin' a shit about anyone but themselves and the bottom line that keeps them in the position to remain billionaires. Their social politics are basically useless to me.

He's a funny and interesting guy to be sure and I totally Agree about succeeding besides the fact he's "on the spectrum" His particular type of mind finding the right outlet for it, that's pretty awesome! His ability to push past the usual "hey dummy this wont make money" from the peanut gallery and do it anyways because he sees past the NOW. I think that is what makes him brilliant.

I remember we were waiting for our car while he was on SNL and I was like "Oh dear lord, i just bought a car from this guy?"

I'm interested to see how the nonsense all plays out, but I do not believe he should be exalted for it.

 

[BlkGS]

Also interesting is how many people think he's American and call him patriotic for his internet hijinx. Um, Patriotic to what??? MONEY and attention that's what. Billionaires don't become billionaires by givin' a shit about anyone but themselves and the bottom line that keeps them in the position to remain billionaires. Their social politics are basically useless to me.

He's a funny and interesting guy to be sure and I totally Agree about succeeding besides the fact he's "on the spectrum" His particular type of mind finding the right outlet for it, that's pretty awesome! His ability to push past the usual "hey dummy this wont make money" from the peanut gallery and do it anyways because he sees past the NOW. I think that is what makes him brilliant.

I remember we were waiting for our car while he was on SNL and I was like "Oh dear lord, i just bought a car from this guy?"

I'm interested to see how the nonsense all plays out, but I do not believe he should be exalted for it.

I think he's very good at convincing the right people he sees past the now, and using them to make his vision for later happen.

Truly Tesla got anywhere based off prodding the government into giving him what he needed, carbon credit markets and tax credits on the cars. Same goes for SpaceX, it's successful because he got the (same) government to privatize a lot of stuff NASA had done. Several of his other ventures that haven't had the government funding or pushing it have been less than successful.

But yeah, he's convi ced a lot of people on both sides of the political world he's one of them, and I guess to an extent... He's right, he's rich, just like them, so everything they do doesn't affect him. He would love everyone to be buying expensive teslas but has no issue flying private jets around. He's just another of the Uber rich, that rules don't apply to.

 

[Kevin-yyz]

Also interesting is how many people think he's American and call him patriotic for his internet hijinx.

He actually does have American citizenship.

 

[GTBRMC]

So, we are 2.5+ years since this thread started. Although all the EV arguments are interesting, has anybody built any experience TOWING with an EV? Still very curious to hear anyone’s real world experience. Thanks.

 

[thefortunes]

So, we are 2.5+ years since this thread started. Although all the EV arguments are interesting, has anybody built any experience TOWING with an EV? Still very curious to hear anyone’s real world experience. Thanks.

There have been plenty of posts about real world experience towing with an EV.

I have towed my waverunners and up to 4000# of trailer loaded with concrete.

Various other posts linked to YouTube or Tesla forum threads about towing boats, campers, etc...

 

[GTBRMC]

There have been plenty of posts about real world experience towing with an EV.

I have towed my waverunners and up to 4000# of trailer loaded with concrete.

Various other posts linked to YouTube or Tesla forum threads about towing boats, campers, etc...

When I am bored I will go back and dig. Trust the real-world experience from the people here more than YouTubers or other sources that are not familiar to me.

Any pros/cons from your experience towing the concrete?