Towing with Tesla Model X

[Ancient canoe]

If you guys just admit that Teslas are the greatest cars on the planet, this can all come to an end. Just say the words.

 

[thefortunes]

I’ve not looked into EVs or Tesla in general so I’m overall clueless. With the amount of tech in these cars, what’s the bill going look like when something goes down as these cars age 5, 8, 10 years? I can’t imagine it will be cheap. For me personally, I cannot justify the purchase price regardless of performance. I have no problem going electric for range over 300, but the prices have to come down significantly before I’d be a buyer. We need more real competition for Tesla.

Yay, a new question!

Both my Teslas are out of warranty (other than a 8 yr, infinite mile warranty on the S drivetrain). Roadster is a 2011 so 8 years old (with 85k miles), S is a 2013 so 6 years old (with 135k miles).

The Roadster is a little finicky (I wouldn't recommend one to anyone unless you are hands on and enjoy that kind of stuff). I've had to use Tesla for two repairs - an A/C condenser ($628) and an ABS sensor ($386). I've also replaced brake pads myself, and done a little bit of electrical work inside the PEM (the brain of the car).

The S had a door handle repaired (a known problem with early models). I believe that was around $100 - can't find the invoice. That's it.

No other services performed in 150k miles driven.

Tires, on the other hand, are eaten like candy.

Agree 100% with needing competition!!!!

 

[haknslash]

Lots of back and forth here on why it can’t work and why it can... Everyone has a point to be made.

I side on this (simple to me logic): I have no clue if global warming is real or not, but I’m pretty positive what we are doing to this world is not good. Ultimately we have all come accustomed to everything needs to be convenient. “I don’t recycle because there aren’t any recycle bins close to my house”. Plain and simple, you are lazy and I can’t imagine what other corners you are cutting in your life. “I don’t return my shopping cart because the cart corral is too far away” - Again, you’re lazy. No other way to say it.

Yes there is cost to going green. Yes there are inconveniences to going green. And yes I know Tesla and EV’s still have a negative impact on the earth but it’s a step in the right direction. We have to get serious out taking care of this place. I’m not a hippie. I don’t make my own soap. I do things that have a negative impact on the earth. But I try to make a difference where I can. No plastic bags. No straw with my drinks. Walking in the parking lot I’ll pick up trash that is not mine since I’m walking right by it. I can do more. And I need to do more. But saying “I can’t stop to charge” is a quitters attitude. If we never developed the combustible engine and we started with EV’s in 1908, and we had to charge every 50 miles, it would just be the life we knew and the world would still turn. We would still make it MawMaw’s house to help with chores.

I’m fine with being inconvenienced if it lessens my footprint.

LOL didn't you just buy a school bus to camp with and tow your boat? You still have an SUV? None of those are really made for lessening your footprint lol.

Let's not forget it's the greenie's that wanted plastic to "save the trees and earth" and look at where it got everyone. Now we have so much plastic they don't even want to recycle more lol. Trees are renewable source for so many things. Give me paper bags any day of the week.

Everyone wants to look at EV as the savior but nobody wants to bring up the severely polluted countries and industrial regions outside of the US that are doing more harm than anyone driving their cars here in the states. I think EV's are definitely a step in the right direction. I just don't think right now they fit into everyone's niche or budget and that's what most are simply saying. Hopefully in the future they will be more accessible for people to purchase like it's just another Honda Civic and there is infrastructure in place that no matter where you are, rural or wherever, that you can find a charging station as easy and convenient as you can a gas station today. If you have a dense infrastructure of charging stations then needing long range becomes less of a need. Right now most simply don't feel comfortable going EV, certainly not as a primary vehicle. The inconvenience of having to alter my route just to hit up the charge station a couple of times a week is just not appealing to people who don't live where EV is common as it may be in other people's areas. Country has to grow with it and that means laying a solid foundation and infrastructure. I have no doubt EV's will continue to become more popular in the future but for now if you want something that doesn't look like....well...an EV ....then there is really only Tesla and right now those are high dollar for probably a lot of people and when they weigh in the whole range and charging it's just not palatable for everyone. I get it some of you are die hard fans of them but just know it's going to take time for everyone to want or need them. Hell by then maybe we can get electromagnetic systems which I'd love to have my own speeding bullet capsule to commute on.

I won't even comment on the global warming.....err "climate change" I think they're calling it these days lol.

 

[2kwik4u]

But in 50+ years here I can count on 1 hand (ok, might be 1 finger) how many times power has been out for more than 1 day due to a storm.

This is a legit issue for me....to a point. I have a backup generator in the garage, and have seriously debated on getting a large propane tank buried and setting up a whole home generator. Our power lines are not great, and the power is out for days on end almost every year. With that said. I usually don't put gas in my truck those days either, and it has a similar 350-ish mile range of city driving. I also don't typically tow in the winter (although heavy spring storms tend to mess us up as well) so that range decreasing aspect is moot as well. I can also usually drive 10-15miles and be back into power. It's rarely a whole regional outage, but more localized to my more rural area........point being, even the electrical infrastructure isn't superb throughout the country yet.

I really think it's a perceived issue more than a real issue to convert to an EV......aside from towing, we're just not there yet in EV land to be a reliable tow vehicle for boat IMO.

Also, I think the idea of dragging a cut up and repaired orange extension cord across the front lawn of mom's house to charge up my $80k car is quite humorous. I would NEVER hear the end of it from the rest of my family, but it would be hilarious.

 

[Liftr]

I didn’t know you were a “stats guy”. But, by Divine Intervention, I did quote “instances”.

7% of the times that I sit down in my truck, that is the schedule. Roughly, once a month.

And I’ve been trying to keep it simple. We’ve not touched on the occasions when I’ve needed to tow a tractor from one farm to another.

Side question; how does the battery tolerate long idle periods?
Hypothetically: Drive 120 miles, and leave it sitting in the elements for two weeks, and make a return trip of 120 miles?

 

[thefortunes]

I didn’t know you were a “stats guy”. But, by Divine Intervention, I did quote “instances”.

7% of the times that I sit down in my truck, that is the schedule. Roughly, once a month.

And I’ve been trying to keep it simple. We’ve not touched on the occasions when I’ve needed to tow a tractor from one farm to another.

Side question; how does the battery tolerate long idle periods?
Hypothetically: Drive 120 miles, and leave it sitting in the elements for two weeks, and make a return trip of 120 miles?

Yep, a numbers geek - CPA, MBA, Econ and Finance degrees.

What do you drive the other half of the month?

How much do the tractor and trailer weigh and how far are you going?

Since they are farms, can I assume you have access to a welding outlet?

To your hypothetical... Not really sure as that is not something I have done. When mine has sat for more than a week, it is typically plugged in. If unplugged I lose a couple miles of range the first couple days it sits (the computers keep waking it up to check things and communicate) but after a period of time it goes into a "deep sleep" where it basically doesn't lose anything.

Worst case scenario the S (or X or 3) shuts itself totally down to protect the battery. The Roadster, on the other hand will run itself out and brick the battery, but that takes more than 6 months and only if you don't turn it off properly.

 

[Liftr]

Take a look at my avatar. That should give you an idea where I spend the other half of the month.
Burning dinosaurs at an alarming rate. About $3M per year.

Tractor and trailer are around 8-9k pounds. 20 miles each way. A couple thousand feet of elevation change enroute.

Outlets are available, if I wanted to drive through the muck to reach them. Some distance away from the dinner table!

I’m just not an urban dweller, with a predictable life.
EV’s fit into some lives, some they don’t.

 

[thefortunes]

Take a look at my avatar. That should give you an idea where I spend the other half of the month.
Burning dinosaurs at an alarming rate. About $3M per year.

Tractor and trailer are around 8-9k pounds. 20 miles each way. A couple thousand feet of elevation change enroute.

Outlets are available, if I wanted to drive through the muck to reach them. Some distance away from the dinner table!

I’m just not an urban dweller, with a predictable life.
EV’s fit into some lives, some they don’t.

Cool. What's your route?

While the X could tow the tractor and trailer, I wouldn't recommend it for more than a mile. Just not rated for it.

As I have said many times, everybody can make their own choices. I'm just trying to dispel myths and educate people who don't know about and only hear misinformation about EVs. LIKE NEEDING A 100' EXTENSION CORD - LOL.

If we would have gotten here 20? posts ago this might have been easier on everyone

ETA did you start flying in the service? My son is at the Naval Academy majoring in Astronautical Engineering - he has selected pilot for his service assignment.

 

[Tyguy]

To answer the question about the battery and storage, it'll depend on the temperature where the EV is stored. Tesla uses a liquid system for cooling and heating the battery, so if the environment is particularly frigid or hot, then the thermal management system will kick in periodically to protect the battery chemistry. Heating will use more electrons than cooling. In my garage, which stays between 45 and 80, this isn't an issue and I'll only lose two or three miles of range per day when it sits. Plugging in to even a standard 110V outlet is enough to cover even the worst case scenario of sub-zero temps and the battery management system heating the battery. I do travel quite a bit and my 3 sits at the airport. There are plenty of options for EV charging around Denver Intl, so I just park, plug in and set a low charge state (70%). When I land back in Denver, I turn on my Tesla app and energize the charger to bump up the charge to about 90% and pre-heat or cool the cabin, so by the time I get to my car everything is good to go with a "full tank".

 

[Liftr]

No particular route. Anywhere in the world.

I’m not asking for the Model X to tow that package. It can’t even get me to the farm(s) and back reliably.

It may be a personality/philosophy difference.
Some people like to see if the numbers work out in a perfectly ordered world.
Some people need independence and flexibility in an unpredictable world.

My rural upbringing and career background has molded me into a “belt and suspenders” guy.

 

[GTBRMC]

Been driving a 2017 Accord hybrid for the last year. Noticed last winter that mileage dropped off noticeably when it got cold (in central Wisconsin). Assume it has to do with efficiency drop when lithium batteries are cold. Anyone have any stats on change in performance/mileage equivalents during winter vs summer on Teslas?

 

[thefortunes]

Been driving a 2017 Accord hybrid for the last year. Noticed last winter that mileage dropped off noticeably when it got cold (in central Wisconsin). Assume it has to do with efficiency drop when lithium batteries are cold. Anyone have any stats on change in performance/mileage equivalents during winter vs summer on Teslas?

Yep. I'm in Wisconsin also.

It has less to do with the batteries and more to do with air resistance (cold air is denser) and rolling resistance (traveling on snow covered roads). Heater use in pure EVs also causes a hit.

Not sure if Honda thermally manges their batteries, but if they do and you drive short distances you will see a hit because the system wants to quickly bring everything up to temperature.

You actually see the same type of drop in MPG in most cars, you just don't notice it as much is you are dropping from 25 to 21, versus 50 to 42.

I see about a 20% increase in Wh/mi in the Roadster, and almost 30% in the S. The S is worse because my wife has a very short commute and the car wants to warm up the battery, using power.

 

[seanmclean]

You might have missed the concept that gas stations don't pump without power either, and the average car has pretty close to the same range as a Model S.

Also Tesla is starting to put solar and battery storage at superchargers.

P.S. I live in WI, we aren't immune to storms either. But in 50+ years here I can count on 1 hand (ok, might be 1 finger) how many times power has been out for more than 1 day due to a storm.

Well I often can't count on one hand the number of >1 day outages in a season on one hand. Most large stations here have generators, pumps run without grid power.

I really don't understand the constant odor of condescension from you on this topic - as you can see I'm pretty pro-EV, but the infrastructure is not there yet for every single person to go EV-only - it simply is not. FWIW, my truck will get me close to 700 miles on a tank of fuel if I need it to. Spare 50 gallons sitting in the boat in the driveway too if things get desperate.

 

[thefortunes]

Well I often can't count on one hand the number of >1 day outages in a season on one hand. Most large stations here have generators, pumps run without grid power.

I really don't understand the constant odor of condescension from you on this topic - as you can see I'm pretty pro-EV, but the infrastructure is not there yet for every single person to go EV-only - it simply is not. FWIW, my truck will get me close to 700 miles on a tank of fuel if I need it to. Spare 50 gallons sitting in the boat in the driveway too if things get desperate.

Lol, sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Most of the "oh my God, EVs are evil and must be killed" comments in this thread are based on such FUD that it is difficult to not be.

I provide real data and experiences for people to learn, and others provide comments like "I'd be embarrassed to run a repaired extension cord across my mom's lawn" which I have never done in 150k miles.

If you really have multiple GREATER THAN ONE DAY power outages in a season I'm curious what everyone does for heat, what businesses do with lost productivity, what schools do to make up those days, etc...

Please provide a link to an article, study, whatever that shows the number of multi-day power outages in your area. Should be easy to reference a school adding so many days to the back of it's calendar to account for those lost every year.

 

[2kwik4u]

Lol, sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Most of the "oh my God, EVs are evil and must be killed" comments in this thread are based on such FUD that it is difficult to not be.

I provide real data and experiences for people to learn, and others provide comments like "I'd be embarrassed to run a repaired extension cord across my mom's lawn" which I have never done in 150k miles.

If you really have multiple GREATER THAN ONE DAY power outages in a season I'm curious what everyone does for heat, what businesses do with lost productivity, what schools do to make up those days, etc...

Please provide a link to an article, study, whatever that shows the number of multi-day power outages in your area. Should be easy to reference a school adding so many days to the back of it's calendar to account for those lost every year.

I don't think any of us have had a "OMG EVs are evil" statement, but our tone has certainly bled through just as much as yours. I'll call that a draw.

Power outages for me, have been very localized. To within a few subdivisions positioned off a small rural road. The main feed to the neighborhood hood has problems with trees and general condition of aging......for me it's a thing that happens a couple times a year for a day or two at a time. Some as long as 5 days some as short as 1/2 day. We just get cold, or drive to friends houses for a few days, or run a small generator to keep the heat pump, refrigerator, and select outlets going......just kinda deal with it really.

Towing with an EV isn't there yet. I'm excited to see what Rivian does. If they can get me 200 loaded miles on a charge, that will cover to/from the lake on a single charge.

And I had a thought last night on the cost.......$80k for a vehicle isn't "Holy balls!" Expensive for a good number of us. We regularly have $75k boats showcased here, and most of those are drug around with quite nice full-size pickups. I'm curious on the ROI numbers for a true 1500 class electric pickup. How many miles do I have to drive that truck, to recoup the say $35k upcharge over my existing $50k truck?

A secondary somewhat unrelated question......how do the heaters in the EVs work? Are the Peltier devices? Electrically driven compressors for A/C?

 

[thefortunes]

I don't think any of us have had a "OMG EVs are evil" statement, but our tone has certainly bled through just as much as yours. I'll call that a draw.

Power outages for me, have been very localized. To within a few subdivisions positioned off a small rural road. The main feed to the neighborhood hood has problems with trees and general condition of aging......for me it's a thing that happens a couple times a year for a day or two at a time. Some as long as 5 days some as short as 1/2 day. We just get cold, or drive to friends houses for a few days, or run a small generator to keep the heat pump, refrigerator, and select outlets going......just kinda deal with it really.

Towing with an EV isn't there yet. I'm excited to see what Rivian does. If they can get me 200 loaded miles on a charge, that will cover to/from the lake on a single charge.

And I had a thought last night on the cost.......$80k for a vehicle isn't "Holy balls!" Expensive for a good number of us. We regularly have $75k boats showcased here, and most of those are drug around with quite nice full-size pickups. I'm curious on the ROI numbers for a true 1500 class electric pickup. How many miles do I have to drive that truck, to recoup the say $35k upcharge over my existing $50k truck?

A secondary somewhat unrelated question......how do the heaters in the EVs work? Are the Peltier devices? Electrically driven compressors for A/C?

Thanks for the reasoned response. Truce

If you supercharged 100% of the time, as my brother did when he traveled for business, you would pick up about $0.12 cents per mile ($3.00/25mpg - you can adjust those numbers for your situation) so it would take almost 300k miles.

To determine your savings if charging at home, I would need to know your kWh cost. I pay $0.07 per kWh (time of use billing) and that takes me 4 miles, so rounded it costs me $0.02/mi. I save about $0.10 per mile when I charge at home.

I said earlier that you can't save money buying a Tesla, and it's true, unless you buy the 3 and compare it to an Audi/BMW (its competitors) not a Civic. Before I annoy Honda owners, I've had 5 of them over the years and loved them, bulletproof, but they just aren't in the same performance category as a Tesla.

They use resistance heaters, and as far as I'm aware nothing special for AC (other than it runs on 400v).

 

[adrianp89]

I think someone here has some Tesla stock.

 

[thefortunes]

I think someone here has some Tesla stock.

Lol. I have traded it over time and done pretty well. No current holdings. I've also, gasp, traded Ford.

I could say that others here must be short.

P.S. please point out one thing I've said that isn't true. Again, I'm providing experiential data for those who are interested. If you aren't, then why read it?

 

[Trevor Shipman]

LOL didn't you just buy a school bus to camp with and tow your boat? You still have an SUV? None of those are really made for lessening your footprint lol.

Let's not forget it's the greenie's that wanted plastic to "save the trees and earth" and look at where it got everyone. Now we have so much plastic they don't even want to recycle more lol. Trees are renewable source for so many things. Give me paper bags any day of the week.

Everyone wants to look at EV as the savior but nobody wants to bring up the severely polluted countries and industrial regions outside of the US that are doing more harm than anyone driving their cars here in the states. I think EV's are definitely a step in the right direction. I just don't think right now they fit into everyone's niche or budget and that's what most are simply saying. Hopefully in the future they will be more accessible for people to purchase like it's just another Honda Civic and there is infrastructure in place that no matter where you are, rural or wherever, that you can find a charging station as easy and convenient as you can a gas station today. If you have a dense infrastructure of charging stations then needing long range becomes less of a need. Right now most simply don't feel comfortable going EV, certainly not as a primary vehicle. The inconvenience of having to alter my route just to hit up the charge station a couple of times a week is just not appealing to people who don't live where EV is common as it may be in other people's areas. Country has to grow with it and that means laying a solid foundation and infrastructure. I have no doubt EV's will continue to become more popular in the future but for now if you want something that doesn't look like....well...an EV ....then there is really only Tesla and right now those are high dollar for probably a lot of people and when they weigh in the whole range and charging it's just not palatable for everyone. I get it some of you are die hard fans of them but just know it's going to take time for everyone to want or need them. Hell by then maybe we can get electromagnetic systems which I'd love to have my own speeding bullet capsule to commute on.

I won't even comment on the global warming.....err "climate change" I think they're calling it these days lol.

I am that that guy... I have a bus. I have a gasoline boat. And I fly from A to B when I can to shorten my travel time. As I said in my post I’m by far not perfect but simple things like picking up trash that’s not mine or not getting plastic bags are some of the SIMPLE things I try to do.

The point of my post is there seems to be a negative connotation surrounding EV’s due to having to charge every 300 or so miles and the inconvenience you would incur. It’s ok to be inconvenienced to do the right thing. That doesn’t mean I’m going off the grid or that I don’t have a footprint. I love my boat and will continue to fill her up with good ol ‘87 till they come out with an alternative. Once I finish the bus conversion, I’ll fill her up with good ol diesel gas and hit the road as much as I can too. I cut where I can and support the innovation that Musk is driving.

as for climate change I said I don’t know if it’s real or not, don’t care either. But I do know what we are doing is wrong.

Trees being called a renewable resource is a bit of a stretch. The deforestation is occurring at a much faster rate than we can replant. Bamboo I would consider renewable.

With that said, I’m out on this thread. I’m going to take the boat out one more time before the season but I still need to stop at the gas station to top her off.

 

[swatski]

comments in this thread are based on such FUD that it is difficult to not be

lol, it would be hard to disagree...

Sure, your comments can seem snide but who cares, I find most of your posts to be incredibly informative. Honestly, by far the best info I have been able to find as far us real world data, in short form. So, thank you for that.

Some of the comments are just silly projections along the lines "buying EVs/Tesla is an act of socio-political activism".
For me, buying $2.5 a gallon premium gas (where I live) I'm in no rush to switch, however I love the EV tech and Tesla and looking forward I see nothing else super-seeding that trend. It certainly won't be "hydrogen economy", lol.


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