Vtech Maptuner ECU reflash - first impressions

[swatski]

I think you are supposed to add a spark aresstor air filter if you take the ribbon out. I'm not sure from your post if you did the filter.

Here's the filter info if you need it. This is for the 1.8L I believe.

R & D Racing Products FX SHO, FZR Power Plenum Flame Arrestor 200-01800

@Noko Yes, you are correct, the R&D and Island Racing all have the flame arrestor filter. This has been discussed here... I am running rouge as far as the USCG regs...
Looks like I will end up installing one of these pretty soon.

 

[swatski]

I so wish the days were longer...

I got my OEM impeller back this morning and put it in along with the OEM wear ring, but it got too dark to do any testing.

As a side note, my OEM impeller was fixed at a local prop shop this time (Mazco Props Inc., Fenton, MO). These guys specialize in high end props, and the owner, John, really knows his craft. They don't normally work on impellers, but he made my OEM impeller look completely new. It was $150, but at least no shipping charges... And, it is an awesome shop.

 

[swatski]

Just a quick update.

I have been talking to the Vtech's Michel and Jonatan about my results. They have come up with a couple new maps for testing. They are in Sweden, so there is a time difference, but they have been very responsive.
Again, keeping it stock with ribbon delete, nothing too agressive.

I went out on the river this morning with a full tank of fresh 93 and ran the two ECU programs I tested before ("Stock/Backup" and "Stage 1 8350"), but this time with the OEM impeller (freshly refurbished) and the OEM wear ring (in great condition).

Only had time for a couple of runs and there was some pretty good wind, so this is by no means the final word.
Clocked it at 43-44mph in "Stock" mode (44.8 highest registered speed, hitting rev limiter at 7800RPM)* and 47mph in "Stage 1" (47.8 highest at about 8000-8050RPM). As I reported before, the low end and midrange are absolutely kick a$$ with Stage 1.** And a solid gain of about 3mph.

The bad news - the Maptuner showed and error while uploading one of the new programs to the ECU, and then it locked up on me. It went into a "recovery" mode and uploaded a Backup file automatically, so at least I did not get stuck.
But my testing was over, and I was not a happy camper. Waiting for Michel and Jonatan to get back to me with some troubleshooting.

I will keep the board posted.

* In the past I had been running 46-47mph on the OEM imp/ring setup after ribbon delete, so I was a bit puzzled. I realized though that aside from the weather etc., I have since installed a tower, a large bimini, and inserted upwards of 200 lbs of sound deadening in my little SX190, so that all seems to fit.

** I still don't particularly care for the stock impeller. It is noticebly louder than the aftermarket Solas, and gives a lot of vibration out, particularly at 3-4k RPM, and an annoying metalic noise at higer RPMs. But maybe I am biased... Next up will be trying a OEM impeller and plastic ring combination, but that's for a different discussion.

 

[Ziess21]

Subscribed, thank you for all of your testing!

 

[swatski]

What a beautiful day it was here today (albeit a tad windy)! So - I had to go ahead and do some more testing!

BTW - my wife is out of town..., so I neglected the kids, the dogs, whatever... Taking care of what is really important here. That little hobby of ours... What can I say.

It all started with a lot of troubleshooting this morning, the maptuner and the software uploads are about as friendly as a cornered rat... Took some time, several trips back and forth to the dock, and a bunch of frustration, but it all kind of worked out at the end... Must say these Vtech guys are VERY helpful, and assisted me on the phone throughout the day. I guess more on the product support somewhere else. Lets just say, it is not a perfect system, yet.

I tested several new programs including "Stage" 1 and 2 mapping, and back to stock, several times. Here is the bottom line - the best speed: (48.3 mph - see the bottom right corner of the speedometer app)



This was in "Stage 2" at about 8150-8200RPM, although I got not much less in Stage 1. This is a N/A single engine with no mods other than ribbon delete, and the boat is loaded with ~250 lbs of sound deadening, full tank of gas, a hefty tower, a large rigid bimini, a bunch of wakeboard/stuff in the ski locker, etc. Definitely not lightened for speed...

I promise I will post some tabulated results with impellers, RPMs, speeds, times etc, at some point but am limited on the testing/water time.

There is a couple of (random) observations I would like to share:

1. The thing is pretty addicting. I don't see myself running this boat back in a stock mode anytime soon...

2. With Stage 2 mapping - the kick in the pants acceleration is simply awesome. Basically, the boat travels from 30 to 40mph faster than it does 20 to 30mph in stock mode... if you know what I mean. Again, I apologize for not giving any numbers at this point, I will. But it is not subtle.

3. Predictably, the power is more palpable as you go up the stages. The boat coming to life would be an understatement here.

4. Missing now, but critical testing will be done with bigger loads. Ballast, lots of it, mimicking various scenarios, particularly for towing/surfing. I'm currently drawing plans for that.

There are several questions regarding top speed I would like to ask the board, maybe I will put them down in the next post, for simplicity's sake.

Somewhat obvious, but will mention it here anyway, per communication with Vtech techs:

"in the stage 2 and 3 files it is important to use premium fuel, recommend 93/94 octane for both performance and safety; as it is a NA engine much of the power comes from the added timing and it needs good fuel to perform as intended. Same with stage 1 tune to get best results you should put premium octane as you can, but it is not as sensitive as the higher stages are."

 

[Murf'n'surf]

Glad we have you testing and reporting on this...great job!

May I suggest that you record your speed results going the opposite direction of your first run and compare the two. This will give you a true average speed and eliminate wind and current effects.

 

[swatski]

Glad we have you testing and reporting on this...great job!

May I suggest that you record your speed results going the opposite direction of your first run and compare the two. This will give you a true average speed and eliminate wind and current effects.

Thank you! And yes, your point is very well taken!

I actually feel that the blip on the screen "max speed" is not a particularly useful measure. But than - that seems to be what people are posting...

In my defense, with the limited time and space for "testing" I do tend to run up and down the same stretch of a lake, giving it a bit of time in between to avoid hitting my own wake too hard. And I do have the ability to switch the maps on the water for more direct "compare and contrast" observations. But what I am doing is, admittedly, amateurish by design.

 

[swatski]

So, here is what I think is interesting.

Per BoatTest.com:
"Top speed for the Yamaha AR192 (2014-) is 48.6 mph, burning 21.35 gallons per hour (gph"
"Top speed for the Yamaha SX190 (2016-) is 43.2 mph, burning 11.9 gallons per hour (gph)"

My own crummy data shows roughly the same bump in top speed in a 190 with ECU reflash...

(No idea how much fuel I burn at this point, can't see any substantial difference if I scan the usage data on the display at comparable RPMs in different modes, for whatever that's worth).

I really did not have any specific goal in mind going into this. I would be curious how would a supercharged (192) respond to that same ECU treatment... I don't think my wife will let me get one for testing... that would be fun though.

It just seems to me that the 190/2 hull and/or stock pump restrictions may be limiting speed gains once in high 40s. After all, I'm running at 8200RPM... and the impellers seem to have the same pitch in 190 (6CW-R1321-01-00) and 192 (6ER-R1321-01-00)...

What's confusing is that, as @Eurocat put it in one post:
"The speed is directly proportional with rpm since it is a direct drive and the propeller pushes out x amount of water per revolution. More revs = more speed."
So - why are 192s as fast at factory rev limit of 7800RPM as my 190 is at 8200RPM? Must be my weight LOL ...
(Seriously, it probably is. Me but also the boat with all the soundproofing mods. My hull may also have some Meramec river crud hanging on to it ).

The fastest 192s around here seem to be @SamCF and @360dart, doing 51-52mph after intercooler and SC upgrades - rev limited by factory..?..

 

[swatski]

If you guys (and I mean guys and gals of course) think I should be testing some higher pitched impellers - let me know. But really, who cares about few mph of the top speed in a boat like that?
(To be honest, I did want it to go a little bit faster than my good ole 18' Starcraft w/115 2-cycle Rude that does about 45 mph... So, I'm okay now )

Far more important to me is the towing prowess of this boat... Combined with the go anywhere abilities I can already attest to, this boat could be the deal.

 

[robert843]

@swatski one I get through my YES warranty at the end of May I plan to start using the same set up in a twin engine boat so hopefully I can help with the testing on this at that point. I do agree very curious to see what the results are in a supercharged boat is with this as this is truly what this is designed for.

 

[rkgdmd]

Any idea when these systems will be available for 2014 and newer boats?

 

[Bruce]

@swatski, I believe the answer is no but do you know if they have plans to develop anything for MR1 engines?

 

[Speedling]

I know Riva never was able to unlock the secrets to the MR1 motors when they were developing the turbocharger system. I doubt it's worth anyone else doing it at this point in the game.
I think there is a little confusion here about pump loading, horsepower, and rpm in relation to top speed.

You saw a top speed increase due to the increase in horsepower AND rpm.
If you had an increase in horsepower but NOT rpm (which would essentially be an increase in torque, making for better acceleration) you would not be going faster.
If you had an increase in rpm and NOT horsepower, you wouldn't be able to spin the extra rpm available to you and would go the same exact speed.
If you have your impeller pitched correctly, and you are doing 45 mph at 7800 rpm with 180 hp, and then you "allow" the ecu to spin 8400 rpm, but don't increase the hp, then you won't be able to go over 45 mph. If you increase the HP AND the top rpm, then 48 is certainly possible!
For those with a 8000 rpm factory limit that only spin 7600 rpm, they don't have the horsepower for the pitch they have on the impeller and probably do under the 45 mph. I don't doubt that each engine is slightly different in horsepower so you will see this no matter what.
If you had a lower horsepower and higher rpm than the 192's that means they have a different pitch on the impellers. I have no doubt that they don't have the same impeller, and even if they did, the pitches varied so badly on my stock impellers that it was a joke so it could change due to that as well.
These guys that have increased horsepower and not rpms on their supercharged 1.8's are cheating themselves out of some speed by not having the rpm raised or the impeller repitched. By increasing the horsepower they have just made sure that they will reach full rpms.

As far as pump loading, it's fairly simple, yet extremely complicated.
The pump is moving water, doing work, if you will. The engine is the means to do the work providing the horsepower. If you have 180 horsepower and had no rpm limit the pump would pump water until it reached the limit of the 180 hp. This is where the pressure of the water going through the pump is MORE than the power provided. This is why my boat spins 9800 and 9700 rpms even though I have a 10200 rpm ecu limit. I need more power to reach that amount of rpms. The pump pressure has reached the horsepower limit. To use my boat as another example, if my boat is making about 160 hp peak, but the pump is only letting it spin at 9800 rpm, that means the pump has probably kept the motors from pushing past about 150-155 hp or so. A slightly lower pitch will bring the rpms up and utilize the full 160 hp, but at the risk of taking out too much and it just bangs against the rev limiter. I prefer to dream about a way to gain back 5-10 hp and thus make the pump push more water. I do have 14/20 solas impellers.

NOW!
As far as top speed goes, you now know the balancing act how the pump works. This is essential to your top speed. It also shows a well tuned engine and pump and impeller setup and therefore is a great sign that something is wrong if your top speed drops dramatically.
Second, while the pump may push the same amount of water from the pump, the variables of the boat itself will cause the top speed to fluctuate. Your weight will change, causing more or less wetted hull surface in the water. Your pitch of the boat will change as weight changes from front to back (stick the weight in the back people, PLEASE) and many other small things, like how many JB.NET flags you are hanging off that sweet tower full of boards up there, or all the fungus growing off the bottom of your boat.

This is why large passenger haulers are sporting jet pumps often enough. They can utilize all the horsepower of the engines and push the same amount of water no matter how heavy it is and that means it is efficiently moving the cargo whereas a typical prop could be setup for empty or full, but not both, causing cavitation and props going bad quickly.

That's it in a nutshell, sorry for hogging the white space here.... I could get into water viscosity, pump friction, nozzle sizes, intake grates, trim, etc. but I think that would be for another day and another thread.
-Lee

 

[swatski]

Any idea when these systems will be available for 2014 and newer boats?

@rkgdmd I am processing @Speedling post (freaking awesome) - so very briefly - that from Jerry of GreenHulk (PWC Performance Store <pwcperformancestore@gmail.com>):

"I know it's already available for many '14 and '15 boats depending on the number on the ECU. Michel can tell us which ones the Mapuner will work on"

I will let you know if I hear more from Michel or Jonatan. They are very responsive.
jonatan@vtech.se <jonatan@vtech.se>; michel@vtech.se <michel@vtech.se>

I also asked Jerry if they are considering any incentives for twin engine guys.

 

[swatski]

@Speedling Thank you for sharing, awesome stuff! Your knowledge is such an asset for this forum.

I would like to know more about your impeller, as I think the ECU reflash (particularly Stage 3...) affords mid range power gains that would make pitch increase work well, and it could make for a better "cruising" (if such a thing exists for these boats, hehe). In fact, when I did some initial testing with my 13/19 Solas (custom repitched for better lower end) I felt like I had to open it up more slowly or it would just cavitate, presumably due to the pitch being too low for the available power. While that may be the way to go with towing with ballast, a 14/22 could be a great cruising impeller. I am assuming the wear rings are the same in all our 155mm pumps? Does your impeller have a model name like Concord or Dynafly, or something?

BTW - when on the water today I did switch the ECU to the Stage 2-v4 mode for just a brief period and, consistent with your post, saw the same trend continue - seemingly more power / "snappiness" (as compared to stock) in the mid range, but no more top RPM or speed increase.

As far as further testing, I think I will focus on acceleration metrics and tabulating RPM/speed/boat load data in stock versus various reflash modes, which may be the most useful. I must say that going just by my initial impressions, the Stage 2-v3 mapping is probably most satisfying. But that just going by the ear and how the boat feels and responds.

I may need to plan on doing some engine data logging at this point.


EDIT: Please note, what I called Stage 3 or 4 above where actually versions of Stage 2, see below. Apologies for confusion.

 

[Speedling]

http://www.amazon.com/Solas-DynaFly-Impeller-Pitch-YG-DF-14/dp/B000GVETZK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447066289&sr=8-1&keywords=solas+impeller+dynafly+yg-df-14+20
Solas DynaFly 14-20
Did I recall you had a plastic wear ring? It's all in good condition?
The more power you apply to the pump, the more any little bit of cavitation will be evident. This is another reason Yamaha probably put 2 pumps with smaller engines instead of one v8 to one small pump. That, and it would be horribly inefficient. And they kinda had the jet ski stuff sitting around anyways, lol!
Who did the repitching on the impellers?
I ask because a good company like Impros will probably do it right. Anyone else will just "bend" the blade and if you bend it that way, or at all really, you can cause cavitation, however this is more the case when going up in pitch, not down because when you pull the blade up for more pitch it pulls away from the sides.
I know in my exciter I had to ease into it on the bottom or it seemed that way too, but I could also just hammer down and wait for it to catch up. That boat is so light that there was like no resistance to cause anything to cavitate, so it was just the pump.

It may simply be it just feels different how it's grabbing the water, but certainly no reason to not investigate in your spare time.

 

[swatski]

@Speedling Thank you for sharing, awesome stuff! Your knowledge is such an asset for this forum.

I would like to know more about your impeller, as I think the ECU reflash (particularly Stage 3...) affords mid range power gains that would make pitch increase work well, and it could make for a better "cruising" (if such a thing exists for these boats, hehe). In fact, when I did some initial testing with my 13/19 Solas (custom repitched for better lower end) I felt like I had to open it up more slowly or it would just cavitate, presumably due to the pitch being too low for the available power. While that may be the way to go with towing with ballast, a 14/22 could be a great cruising impeller. I am assuming the wear rings are the same in all our 155mm pumps? Does your impeller have a model name like Concord or Dynafly, or something?

BTW - when on the water today I did switch the ECU to the Stage 4 mode for just a brief period and, consistent with your post, saw the same trend continue - seemingly more power / "snappiness" (as compared to stock or stage 1-3 settings) in the mid range, but no more top RPM or speed increase.

As far as further testing, I think I will focus on acceleration metrics and tabulating RPM/speed/boat load data in stock versus various reflash modes, which may be the most useful. I must say that going just by my initial impressions, the Stage 3 mapping is probably most satisfying. But that just going by the ear and how the boat feels and responds.

I may need to plan on doing some engine data logging at this point.

Replying to my own post... Well, just to clarify. After talking to Michel and Jonatan, it turns out I was actually testing various versions of Stage 2, NOT Stage 3 or 4. We still have some labeling issues... With no engine mods the engines won't utilize anything beyond Stage 2, and mine is pretty much strait stock N/A (with ribbon delete).

 

[swatski]

http://www.amazon.com/Solas-DynaFly-Impeller-Pitch-YG-DF-14/dp/B000GVETZK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447066289&sr=8-1&keywords=solas+impeller+dynafly+yg-df-14+20
Solas DynaFly 14-20
Did I recall you had a plastic wear ring? It's all in good condition?
The more power you apply to the pump, the more any little bit of cavitation will be evident. This is another reason Yamaha probably put 2 pumps with smaller engines instead of one v8 to one small pump. That, and it would be horribly inefficient. And they kinda had the jet ski stuff sitting around anyways, lol!
Who did the repitching on the impellers?
I ask because a good company like Impros will probably do it right. Anyone else will just "bend" the blade and if you bend it that way, or at all really, you can cause cavitation, however this is more the case when going up in pitch, not down because when you pull the blade up for more pitch it pulls away from the sides.
I know in my exciter I had to ease into it on the bottom or it seemed that way too, but I could also just hammer down and wait for it to catch up. That boat is so light that there was like no resistance to cause anything to cavitate, so it was just the pump.

It may simply be it just feels different how it's grabbing the water, but certainly no reason to not investigate in your spare time.

@Speedling The repitching was done by Impros. Twice by now, on the same impeller. I see what you are saying about the wear ring, I have toggled between factory and an aftermarket one with plastic inserts (I changed the inserts twice lately, just to see how things work). The plastic ones probably do have more cavitation as they become "groovy' almost right away, at least the way I drive...

As you can see, I tend to boat in fairly shallow stuff (but it is close to home...). Oh well, there is always some trade off, right? Its actually just getting to the pools of water that are nice that is an issue here. But, that is one of the reasons I chose this boat.

As an interesting aside, a great feature of Solas and plastic rings is their significant noise and vibration reduction, which is really notable. But that is a different discussion!

 

[swatski]

Any idea when these systems will be available for 2014 and newer boats?

Sounds like the current version of the Maptuner will work on newer NA but not supercharged engines. Best to send a picture of your ECU to Michel and they will tell you.

This from Michel at Vtech (Michel@Vtech.se):

"The 14+ ECU from the supercharged engines does not work.
So if it’s a 14+ NA boat best thing would be to send in Pictures first so we can try to verify if Maptuner supports the ECU it is equipped with or not.
We can do the new 14+ ECUs that the supercharged engines are equipped with. But we need to use special tool and bench Flash them.
This means that the ECUs must be shipped to us Sweden at the moment to get programmed, also due to this it won’t be possible to change betveen tunes or revert back to stock again (if you don’t send ECU back to us again)."

 

[Noko]

Thanks for the info and results. I'm hoping that with the ribbon delete and maybe the ECU adjustment, my Carb boat will perform like a regular boat. Mid range acceleration would be a nice increase. My boat does 44-48mph depending on conditions. Would I love a few more mph, yep, but thats all ego.