Winterization debates

[AZDANSX230HO]

I like having a full tank for many reasons, one of them is having 50 gallons of extra fuel during the winter that I could access if there was a major power outage to run my generator for a few extra days.

 

[seadude]

The big issue with ethanol fuels is "phase separation" which results in this goop that will clog your fuel system. This is a chemical reaction between water and ethanol that occurs at a critical CONCENTRATION. Leaving your tank nearly dry means it will not take much water to hit this concentration point. Stabilizer products may preserve the fuel for a few years but they will not prevent condensation or inhibit this process! A full tank also prevents the corrosion on fuel system components as shown in the image above.
Definitely fill up, just not above 90% or so if you're trailering, especially while gas is still cheap(ish)!

 

[ncnmra]

The big issue with ethanol fuels is "phase separation" which results in this goop that will clog your fuel system. This is a chemical reaction between water and ethanol that occurs at a critical CONCENTRATION. Leaving your tank nearly dry means it will not take much water to hit this concentration point. Stabilizer products may preserve the fuel for a few years but they will not prevent condensation or inhibit this process! A full tank also prevents the corrosion on fuel system components as shown in the image above.
Definitely fill up, just not above 90% or so if you're trailering, especially while gas is still cheap(ish)!

And I guess the moral is avoid ethanol like the plague. I have a choice here: marina 87 ethanol free gas for $1.20/L or trailer it and put in 91 ethanol free for $1.10. I prefer the later.

 

[ncnmra]

Here's another point of potential debate:

Do you guys spray your engines/hoses with anything? I've noticed some of the clamps on my hoses, and some of the fittings are showing some mild rust, likely due to humidity. I bought some Yamashield: http://www.simyamaha.com/Yamaha_Yamahashield_p/acc-yamsh-ld-00.htm

Anyone else use this? Is it safe on everything, or should I avoid certain parts? I was also considering "Fluid Film": http://www.fluid-film.com/

 

[OperationROL]

I will tell you that in my area we have a gas station called "Road Ranger" that only had Ethanol-free fuel. That is the ONLY fuel I put in the boat unless I am away like at Shelbyville. Recently Road Ranger sold a lot of their locations and the new company, "Fast Fuel" sell fuel with ethanol. So my choices are not a little limited, but I go out of my way to find a Road Ranger and avoid ethanol.

As for storing with a full tank.......I'm still not convince, but that might be because i'm cheap. Lol!

 

[Gym]

I will tell you that in my area we have a gas station called "Road Ranger" that only had Ethanol-free fuel. That is the ONLY fuel I put in the boat unless I am away like at Shelbyville. Recently Road Ranger sold a lot of their locations and the new company, "Fast Fuel" sell fuel with ethanol. So my choices are not a little limited, but I go out of my way to find a Road Ranger and avoid ethanol.

As for storing with a full tank.......I'm still not convince, but that might be because i'm cheap. Lol!

Most car and engine manufacturers will advise against running your tank dry as you will suck all the water and dirt sediment into the filters and engine. Aircraft and fuel trucks have sumps for the purpose of draining out these contaminants. Small equipment like lawnmowers, leaf blowers & string trimmers can be turned over to empty the fuel & contaminants but not our boats. You run much more of a risk by running dry than topping off with treated fuel. Run the boat for 10-15 minutes to get the treated fuel into the delivery system and to give some air space for the spring expansion.

 

[Gym]

Just for fun I looked up long term storage on my 1000cc Yamaha YXZ1000R Side by Side, says to fill the tank with fresh fuel and fuel stabilizer, remove the spark plugs and add one tablespoon of engine oil into each cylinder, then turn engine over several times, then re-install plugs. Does not mention fogging oil or spraying fogging oil into the throttle body.

So if you have aluminum cylinders, heads, pistons, why the need for the oil unless the rings are made of steel and somehow you get enough moisture in the cylinders during storage to cause any rust?

The reason for the fogging oil is it goes in as a mist rather than a puddle so it better coats the cylinder walls and rings. It is also forced up into the overhead coating the valves, seats & guides. Engineers will dictate different procedures for different engines based on their design and what has been learned through the history of an engine design. That's why Yamaha came up with a new fogging process for the MR-1. I'm not in a position to second guess the manufacturer so I'll roll with it as it seems reasonable.

 

[AZDANSX230HO]

The reason for the fogging oil is it goes in as a mist rather than a puddle so it better coats the cylinder walls and rings. It is also forced up into the overhead coating the valves, seats & guides. Engineers will dictate different procedures for different engines based on their design and what has been learned through the history of an engine design. That's why Yamaha came up with a new fogging process for the MR-1. I'm not in a position to second guess the manufacturer so I'll roll with it as it seems reasonable.

We had our previous 2006 for 5 years and our current 2008 boat this season, I have never felt the need to fog my MR-1 engines here in Arizona, I do not boat in salt water, we have relatively low humidity, and I make it a practice to fire up all of my toys during the winter once a month as well as keep the batteries on a tender. It's all a matter of personal preference, I do not see the need to do this with the MR-1's as previously stated.

Now with my old inboard/outboard boat with a v-6 and carburetor, I did fog that engine due to the open air cleaner which is more of a flame arrestor, that I felt could allow moisture in more so than the MR-1's. I also drained the engine block of water on that boat as part of winterizing it.

I have owned dozens jet ski's from stand ups to sit downs, 2-strokes, 4-strokes, winterizing has always been blip the throttles to blow out as much water as possible, fuel stabilizer, and a tender on the batteries - I have never once had an issue with any of them over the last 20 years.

If people here want to fog these engines, please do so, it's your boat.

 

[ncnmra]

I did fog that engine due to the open air cleaner which is more of a flame arrestor, that I felt could allow moisture in more so than the MR-1's.

Just as a point of reference; my Perfect Pass servo seized recently. When I took it apart, it was corroded and you could actually see water droplets inside of it. It NEVER got water splashed on it directly, as it is completely out of the way of any water entry point, and water that high would have flooded my engines. The only logical explanation is condensation due to humidity. This really got me thinking where else the water may be condensing. The servo had next to no obvious water entry locations, so my point is that the filter of the MR-1 won't do anything to stop humidity getting inside there, not to mention up through the exhaust if the valves happen to be in the open position for a particular cylinder.

 

[AZDANSX230HO]

Just as a point of reference; my Perfect Pass servo seized recently. When I took it apart, it was corroded and you could actually see water droplets inside of it. It NEVER got water splashed on it directly, as it is completely out of the way of any water entry point, and water that high would have flooded my engines. The only logical explanation is condensation due to humidity. This really got me thinking where else the water may be condensing. The servo had next to no obvious water entry locations, so my point is that the filter of the MR-1 won't do anything to stop humidity getting inside there, not to mention up through the exhaust if the valves happen to be in the open position for a particular cylinder.

The air filter will not stop humidity, but the throttle bodies are in the closed position - which is no guarantee of no humidity entering, but lessens it considerably. I think it comes down to each persons climate they live in, harshly cold winters, salt water, high humidity - which I have none of the above except we get snow a couple times a year and it melts within a day or so. Again it's a personal preference to fog or not - I highly maintain every aspect of my boat and engines, it's not a thing of being lazy or not wanting to spend the money, I just do not feel it is necessary where I live and the fact that I always start my toys during the winter. I would recommend to anyone that does fog their engines to spray some throttle body cleaner through each one at the beginning of the season to get out any oily residue, then change your spark plugs.

 

[ncnmra]

I would recommend to anyone that does fog their engines to spray some throttle body cleaner through each one at the beginning of the season to get out any oily residue, then change your spark plugs.

TB Cleaner, Carb Cleaner, or SeaFoam "Spray"? What is the actual difference between these parts?

 

[AZDANSX230HO]

TB Cleaner, Carb Cleaner, or SeaFoam "Spray"? What is the actual difference between these parts?

https://seafoamsales.com/sea-foam-spray/

https://www.amazon.com/CRC-05078-Throttle-Air-Intake-Cleaner/dp/B000M8PYO2

They all pretty much do the same thing except Carb Cleaner is for Carburetors.

 

[KXCam22]

My boat is winter parked in my driveway and survives the snow quite nicely under a heavy duty trap placed over the trailering cover. I cut the tarp to fit around the tower so that it fits snugly. I try not to let more than 6" of snow accumulate before I pull it off with a long handled broom. The tarp makes the snow slide off easily. We don't get tons of snow in town, maybe 36". Not ideal but works well. Cam.

 

[bronze_10]

6 inches of snow shuts down the region here. No budget for the snow handling equipment.

 

[Gym]

Maybe I read the Yamaha builtin wrong but I don't remember reading anything about only fogging in cold temperatures. They did mention more frequent fogging in salt environments though.

Running your engines for a short time during the winter is ill advised as it does not get up to operating temp long enough to properly burn off any condensation thusly spreading it through the engine. As dry as AZ is there is moisture in all air. Like you said @AZDANSX230HO, it's your boat.

 

[AZDANSX230HO]

Maybe I read the Yamaha builtin wrong but I don't remember reading anything about only fogging in cold temperatures. They did mention more frequent fogging in salt environments though.

Running your engines for a short time during the winter is ill advised as it does not get up to operating temp long enough to properly burn off any condensation thusly spreading it through the engine. As dry as AZ is there is moisture in all air. Like you said @AZDANSX230HO, it's your boat.

It's definitely my boat and I have never had one problem with my routine or engines.

I beg to differ on running an engine a short time, has nothing to do with getting it up to operating temperature. Do you not see that the combustion process at 1000 RPM's or so for 20-30 seconds of run time will be burning fuel in the cylinders, how would this not burn out any and all condensation? It's not like you have a cup of water in each cylinder, if you do you have much bigger problems. In 30 seconds the engine is going to burn fuel in the cylinders for 500 revolutions at idle and that includes pumping oil throughout the engine and valve train. After 10 seconds or so I also blip the throttles at higher RPM's as well. Turn off for 10 to 15 minutes, fire it back up again for 20 -30 seconds, I guarantee you any condensation will be burned up during the combustion process. Only time you need to get these engines up to operating temperature is to change the oil & filter - besides normal operation on the lake of course.

And to edit, if you are talking about operating temperature concerning having condensation inside the engine where oil protects it, again you have a much bigger problem if there is condensation inside the engine with the oil. Fogging oil only lubricates the cylinder with whatever is left after turning off the engine.

 

[ncnmra]

It's definitely my boat and I have never had one problem with my routine or engines.

I beg to differ on running an engine a short time, has nothing to do with getting it up to operating temperature. Do you not see that the combustion process at 1000 RPM's or so for 20-30 seconds of run time will be burning fuel in the cylinders, how would this not burn out any and all condensation? It's not like you have a cup of water in each cylinder, if you do you have much bigger problems. In 30 seconds the engine is going to burn fuel in the cylinders for 500 revolutions at idle and that includes pumping oil throughout the engine and valve train. After 10 seconds or so I also blip the throttles at higher RPM's as well. Turn off for 10 to 15 minutes, fire it back up again for 20 -30 seconds, I guarantee you any condensation will be burned up during the combustion process. Only time you need to get these engines up to operating temperature is to change the oil & filter - besides normal operation on the lake of course.

And to edit, if you are talking about operating temperature concerning having condensation inside the engine where oil protects it, again you have a much bigger problem if there is condensation inside the engine with the oil. Fogging oil only lubricates the cylinder with whatever is left after turning off the engine.

I think the concern is water/condensation in the OIL. If you run for a short amount of time the oil doesn't have enough time to get got enough to burn off the condensation. Then, you end up circulating "wet" oil into your engine, and it sits and does its nasty stuff. Conversely, if you were to run it for 20 mins, to let the oil really heat up and bake off any water, then when you stop it, there isn't any water left in the oil.

Its just a theory, and certainly nobody is criticizing your approach. In my particular case, I don't have access to the boat in the winter, so it needs to sit without any cranking, etc.

 

[AZDANSX230HO]

I think the concern is water/condensation in the OIL. If you run for a short amount of time the oil doesn't have enough time to get got enough to burn off the condensation. Then, you end up circulating "wet" oil into your engine, and it sits and does its nasty stuff. Conversely, if you were to run it for 20 mins, to let the oil really heat up and bake off any water, then when you stop it, there isn't any water left in the oil.

Its just a theory, and certainly nobody is criticizing your approach. In my particular case, I don't have access to the boat in the winter, so it needs to sit without any cranking, etc.

Like I said if you have water in your oil you have a much bigger problem, so what would fogging do to prevent this? Fogging is to put a protective film inside the cylinder, the rest of the engine is lubricated by the engine oil, crank, rods, rings, pistons, valve train, etc.

 

[Gym]

I shold have been clearer. As @ncnmra stated I was referring to condensation in the oil which can't be avoided in any of the 50 states. It is not a question of if condensation gets into oil but how much. If the oil is not brought up to operating temp you will not cook the moisture out. Circulating that through the engine can cause rust or pitting and cause additional wear to rings & valves. This may never show up as a failure but more likely as minor loss in compression.

 

[AZDANSX230HO]

I shold have been clearer. As @ncnmra stated I was referring to condensation in the oil which can't be avoided in any of the 50 states. It is not a question of if condensation gets into oil but how much. If the oil is not brought up to operating temp you will not cook the moisture out. Circulating that through the engine can cause rust or pitting and cause additional wear to rings & valves. This may never show up as a failure but more likely as minor loss in compression.

Ok, so my question still remains what will fogging to do to prevent this?